[Archived] The Walker Trust

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Why do people think the answer is to throw money at the team and sign players?

Pray tell how much money Sam has spent? How many of his signings have become a success?

Regardless of the overall negative amount the man has had more than most rovers ever get and IMO he's not spent it well.

I'm just not convinced its the answer we need.

Sam has spent around -17 million

[Rovers0411]

but surely the point has to be if we continue like this we are heading one way and that is relegation which would be catatrosphic even supporters of other clubs on their boards esp with the beattie swap bid with Roberts they are saying we are a joke club with no money

The fact we have no money does not make us a joke club. Indeed, it is the total opposite. It emphasises the success we have season after season just to survive in the PL.

It is a fact that we have little if any surplus money to enter the transfer market other than wheeling and dealing and scouring the market for frees.

What do you suggest the club does to provide Sam (or anyother manager) with a substantial transfer budget? It is no good demanding the Trustees put more money into the club - they can only act with the criteria allowed by the Trust Deed. Would you suggest we go deep into debt and put the long term viability of the club at risk? Would you be happy if John Williams doubled ticket prices - in an ideal world that would bring in around £8m a year. But its not an ideal world. How many fans would actually be happy if PL survival was dependent upon higher ticket prices to provide the manager with more transfer funds? The reality is that higher ticket prices would drive fans away rather than increase revenue.

[PAFELL]

I would love the Trust to be able to release the purse strings and start pumping millions into the club but it is clearly not possible even if they had the will and desire.

Pafell, from your posts it is obvious you have no understanding of the concept of a Trust. I am a Trustee of a small Trust fund but the concept is the same regardless of the value of the fund. Trustees have legal obligations and responsibilities to manage the funds and assets of the Trust in accordance with the instructions in the Trust Deed of the person or organisation that sets up the fund. Put simply the funding being made available from the Trust by the Trustees has to be in accordance with the wishes of Jack Walker. It is also worth remembering that Jack Walker frequently publicly stated his desire that Rovers should become self sufficient, no longer relying on donations from his personal wealth.

People should also think about how much financial support has been given to the club by Jack Walker, through his Trust, since his untimely death. £3m DONATION per annum with the exception of one season. Over £40m of loans effectively written off by being converted into paid up share capital on which no dividends have been paid. Thats circa £65/£70m that the Trustees have GIVEN to the club since Jack Walker died. There is no doubt that the Trustees do not have the same passion for the Rovers that Jack Walker did so do you really think they would continue giving any money to the club and write off massive loans unless they had to because of the terms of Jack Walkers will and Trust Deed? Even if they did share Jack's passion for Rovers they could not give more money to the club unless there is provision to do so in the Trust Deed.

The one area I would criticise the club and the Trustees about the funding Jack Walker made available for Rovers through his Trust is that they do not make a statement to tell fans exactly what provision he made. If they simply released a statement that said exactly what provision Jack Walker made fans would understand exactly what position the club was in.

Rovers are trying to compete in a league in which we have one of the lowest revenues. We also have the problem that other clubs, who fans think we should be able to compete with financially, are spending enormous amounts on wages and transfer fees that have been made available through massive borrowing. Fans forget that borrowed money has to be repaid. Following that policy Pompey and WHU reel from one financial crises to another. Over the last few days the full extent of the looming financial crises at Liverpool and Man Utd is starting to come out.

Fans look to a club like Birmingham and ask why we cannot get new owners prepared to provide a similar large transfer budget. However those new owner's company in Hong Kong has lost money for the last 4 years. They have had to borrow money to complete the takeover. Do you really believe Carsten Yeung has paid millions to Gold/Sullivan to buy Birmingham then simply given Mcleish a £40m transfer budget with no expectation of all that money having to be repaid? Unless Birmingham achieve and maintain success they are another Pompey in waiting. Is that the sort of takeover fans want? John Williams has publicly stated that the Trust Deed does not allow the club to be sold to anyone who would simply borrow money against the club's assets (a la Man Utd, Liverpool) in order to finance a takeover.

In today's PL the £3m annual donation (received every season except one since Jack Walkers death) received from the Trustees is a relatively small amount. Maybe if Jack Walker had anticipated the massive explosion in transfer fees and players wages he would have made greater provision for ongoing financial support from his Trust Fund. But fans should understand that, unlike the loans that most PL clubs are financed by, the donations received from the Trust do not have to be repaid (albeit a few years ago the club did take out a small, manageable loan - in addition to the donations from the Trust - that is being repaid).

Over the next few seasons I believe the full extent of the financial crises within the game, and the PL in prticular, will be revealed. Clubs managed within their financial means (like Rovers) will start to get an advantage as other clubs who chased the dream on borrowed money struggle to survive. The best thing that could happen to Rovers would be the likes of WHU and Pompey being forced in administration or bankruptcy through relegation as well as Man Utd or Liverpool missing out on the Champions League and being forced into selling their star names to meet interest payments on their massive debts. That might bring some sort of financial sanity back into the game and, because of John Williams sensible financial management of the club, give us more chance to compete.

As I said previously, I do believe the Trustees/Club should be more transparent about the provision Jack Walker made for the club in his Trust. However, for those calling for the club to be sold I would ask you to consider how does John Williams find new owners who would GIVE more financial support to the club than is currently availabe from the Trust - and I stress GIVE more financial support as oppossed to facilitate massive borrowings in the pursuit of short term success. There may be many foreign owners willing to INVEST in a PL club but how many true BENEFACTORS are there? Jack Walker remains one of the very few who has GIVEN money to a club. Only a handful of clubs benefit from one benefactor, for John Williams to find another is literally like searching for the 'needle in a haystack'.

One final thought for those calling for the Trutees to loosen the purse strings. Assuming they were able to ignore Jack Walker's instructions what would your reaction be if they said they were going to double the funding on condition it was matched by fans with ticket prices doubled (in most cases only to levels paid by fans of other PL clubs)? After all, we see Rovers as much 'our club' as the Trustees club so if we expect the Trustees to pay more why should'nt we? We all know the answer - a massive drop in attendances.

Thanks for this explanation about a trust. You are right I know nothing about how a trust works. I also believe a time will come when a lot of clubs in the prem - so called big clubs - will be forced to sell. But the question I ask is when? Can Rovers survive until that day arrives?

I think if the trustees did start to put in more money on the condition that ticket prices went up - I think that is something we would have to expect. Eventually - maybe with a prudent business strategy - Rovers would climb the table in to the top 4 and champions league places, which then would help the trust reduce its imput and at the sametime ticket prices. Maybe you are right, more cash from the trust and raising of ticket prices has to go together. Attendances may go lower for awhile, but would go up again with success and type of football played.

[Sir Ranulf Westwood]

Jack Walker was a football supporter of Blackburn Rovers Football Club. He did, before he died, bring Rovers the premiership title. Not one Rovers supporter can be anything but grateful for this achievement - for that as a Rovers supporter, I say thank you.

I fully understand that football is NOT your passion and that you have to take into consideration all the other businesses that you are responcible for. These probable take priority - understandable, after all football is only a sport.

But, Jack Walker put his heart into the club of Blackburn Rovers - all we ask, is that you continue and back his dream of making Blackburn rovers a success.

As things stand, it is common knowledge you want to sell the club. We also know how hard it is to sell Blackburn Rovers - after all what is Blackburn - even the locals have given up,on the town, let alone the club.

At this momment in time Rovers lack the players to turn this club into a successful club. The higher Rovers finish in the table the easier it will be for you to find a buyer for the club. But at the moment, you are the ones that are preventing both success and the sale of the club.

No manager can turn the team around unless they are given the financial backing that is required - even the £3. million you stopped giving is better than nothing.

For the sake of the memory of Mr jack Walker, Uncle Jack, please support the dream he had for Rovers. He started a dream, you need to continue it.

This in turn will help you sell rovers. Also it will be helpful in the initial quest to turn Rovers into a self dependent club.

Tears to my eyes, tears to my eyes

[Majiball]

I haven't worked out what he's spent but its minus something .That's the point isn't it? We are largely debt-free but soon we'll be player free.I think several of his signings have been a success by the way, surprising given the nominal amounts paid for them.

Sam has spent around -17 million

I know Sam's had it hard in that he's raised 30 odd million and only had half to spend. However he has still had significant funds given to him by the board, we even increased our wage budget to accomadate one or two.

I realise its not easy to work with those issues but even so his dealings to date have been poor. I'm not sure giving the man more money as most are suggesting in this thread will reap the rewards we wish for. Until he proves he can sign a player that will improve us, I'm just not convinced it would be of any benefit.

[Rovers0411]

Thanks for this explanation about a trust. You are right I know nothing about how a trust works. I also believe a time will come when a lot of clubs in the prem - so called big clubs - will be forced to sell. But the question I ask is when? Can Rovers survive until that day arrives?

I think if the trustees did start to put in more money on the condition that ticket prices went up - I think that is something we would have to expect. Eventually - maybe with a prudent business strategy - Rovers would climb the table in to the top 4 and champions league places, which then would help the trust reduce its imput and at the sametime ticket prices. Maybe you are right, more cash from the trust and raising of ticket prices has to go together. Attendances may go lower for awhile, but would go up again with success and type of football played.

When I mentioned about higher ticket prices it was simply to highlight a point that the same fans who call for the Trust to 'put their hands in their pocket' are the same fans who would object to helping the clubs financial position themselves by being prepared to 'put their hands in their pockets' and help the club by paying higher ticket prices.

The fact is the Trustees have their hands tied by the terms Jack Walker put in his will and Trust Deed. Legally they cannot provide more or less funding than Jack instructed and that is exactly the same with any Trust fund. The Trustees do not own the assets of the Trust fund they merely have a legal obligation to manage them in accordance with the instructions of the person/organisation who set up the Trust.

As I said before, I think the club and the Trustees would score a massive PR success if they would just make a public announcement of exactly what provision Jack made for the club.

[saxo1man30]

Thanks for this explanation about a trust. You are right I know nothing about how a trust works. I also believe a time will come when a lot of clubs in the prem - so called big clubs - will be forced to sell. But the question I ask is when? Can Rovers survive until that day arrives?

I think if the trustees did start to put in more money on the condition that ticket prices went up - I think that is something we would have to expect. Eventually - maybe with a prudent business strategy - Rovers would climb the table in to the top 4 and champions league places, which then would help the trust reduce its imput and at the sametime ticket prices. Maybe you are right, more cash from the trust and raising of ticket prices has to go together. Attendances may go lower for awhile, but would go up again with success and type of football played.

champions league? your having a laugh pafell. even if the trust could put some money in, it cetainly wouldn`t be along the lines of the amount required to compete against the now `big 6`. how much do you expect the trust to pay out, 100m?

[PAFELL]

champions league? your having a laugh pafell. even if the trust could put some money in, it cetainly wouldn`t be along the lines of the amount required to compete against the now `big 6`. how much do you expect the trust to pay out, 100m?

The so called top 4 or 6 are starting to faulter because of their massive debts. They can only go so far before that debt has to be reigned in.

[mellison24]

Er in reply to my post you called me vinjay - did you not say in reply, "give it a rest Vinjay"/ I haven't till now said anything about a smiley.

If you really think I am Vinjay, then contact the mods and they can contact me if the need too. Again I am not vinjay - I have heard of him - as he has been mentioned on here, but know nothing about him.

I am not encouraging disent towards the board or the trust nor have I any aim of wanting harm for the club. I just believe that as they are the owners and surely must see what is happening, that they should have a more hands on approach to the club and funding is required. Again I will say again as you find it hard to read, I am in favour of the trust 0f I think every post from me has indicated so. I just feel they need to do more and supporters need to do what they can to encourage this.

I'm with you PAFELL. The fans need answers from the trust. They own this club on Jack Walker's behalf, so should they not do right by his memory and put their investment back into the club? I'll try getting on to another journo and see if they like the idea of voicing our opinions.

[Rovers0411]

I'm with you PAFELL. The fans need answers from the trust. They own this club on Jack Walker's behalf, so should they not do right by his memory and put their investment back into the club? I'll try getting on to another journo and see if they like the idea of voicing our opinions.

Your looking at two totally different things. Legally Trustees of any Trust have to act in accordance with the terms of a Trust Deed, in this instance Jack Walker's. The Trustees cannot act independent of their terms of reference in the Trust Deed so, even if the desire to do so was there, they cannot increase investment in the club unless Jack Walker made provision for them to do so.

It is also worth remembering that Rovers are only one of the beneficiaries of the Trust. The Trustees are obliged to act in the best interests of all the beneficiaries. Even if they had to the power to make the decision would increasing investment and ploughing countless millions into Rovers be in the best interests of ALL beneficiaries of the Trust?

From John Williams comments it appears Jack Walker protected the club from being sold to the wrong owners. The club cannot be sold to new owners who use the club's assets to borrow money to effect a takeover. I`m sure that the Trustees would otherwise happily sell the club to the first interested party who meets the asking price and not give a damm as to whether that was in the club's best long term interests.

As far as your other point, 'The fans need answers from the trust', as I said in my previous post it would be to everyone's benefit - fans, Trustees, and club - if they did clarify their terms of reference given to them by JAck Walker with respect to ongoing funding of the club. At least if fans understood what provision Jack Walker made through his trust for ongoing funding to the club the Trustees would not leave themselves open to (unjustified) criticism.

[mellison24]

Your looking at two totally different things. Legally Trustees of any Trust have to act in accordance with the terms of a Trust Deed, in this instance Jack Walker's. The Trustees cannot act independent of their terms of reference in the Trust Deed so, even if the desire to do so was there, they cannot increase investment in the club unless Jack Walker made provision for them to do so.

It is also worth remembering that Rovers are only one of the beneficiaries of the Trust. The Trustees are obliged to act in the best interests of all the beneficiaries. Even if they had to the power to make the decision would increasing investment and ploughing countless millions into Rovers be in the best interests of ALL beneficiaries of the Trust?

From John Williams comments it appears Jack Walker protected the club from being sold to the wrong owners. The club cannot be sold to new owners who use the club's assets to borrow money to effect a takeover. I`m sure that the Trustees would otherwise happily sell the club to the first interested party who meets the asking price and not give a damm as to whether that was in the club's best long term interests.

As far as your other point, 'The fans need answers from the trust', as I said in my previous post it would be to everyone's benefit - fans, Trustees, and club - if they did clarify their terms of reference given to them by JAck Walker with respect to ongoing funding of the club. At least if fans understood what provision Jack Walker made through his trust for ongoing funding to the club the Trustees would not leave themselves open to (unjustified) criticism.

Much appreciated answer to my question. Thank you.

[den]

From John Williams comments it appears Jack Walker protected the club from being sold to the wrong owners.

Which comments?

[Rovers0411]

Which comments?

Sometime ago but he did state in the LT that Jack Wlaker had put safeguards in place to prevent the club being sold to anyone who would use the club's assets to borrow the money to fiance the takeover, in other words the looming financial meltdown at Liverpool and Man Utd cannot happen in the same way at Rovers.

[bubblerrovers]

Could we not get a petition going for some answers?? You'd prob get 15k plus signatures on Thurs and alot more if did on line, then drop them off to jw, then they would have to do something.

[RevidgeBlue]

Rover 0411 no offence but you are merely surmising and presenting your opinion as having greater weight because you're the Trustee of your own fund.

Please present a link to the comments you are attributing to John Williams.

As for your comments along the lines that the Trustees can only put in the amount of money directed in the Trust, it would appear there are no such directions and that the Trustees have absolute discretion in this regard otherwise they'd be in breach of their responsibilities.

There have been periods when they have put large amounts in, technically in the form of loans, periods when they have put lesser but regular amounts in and periods such as the last couple of years when they have put nothing in.

[Rovers0411]

Rover 0411 no offence but you are merely surmising and presenting your opinion as having greater weight because you're the Trustee of your own fund.

I`m surmising nothing. The fact is legally a Trustee can only act within the terms of reference set in the Trust Deed. Whatever funding is being provided has to be in accordance with Jack Walker's own instructions. To do otherwise could leave Trustees open to even criminal investigation.

Please present a link to the comments you are attributing to John Williams.

It was an article in the Telegraph months ago. I neither have the time or inclination to try to search through the web to find a link. However, I think it is fair to say that if there were not strict T&C's attached to the sale of the club the Trustees would have off loaded to the first buyer who met their asking price.

As for your comments along the lines that the Trustees can only put in the amount of money directed in the Trust, it would appear there are no such directions and that the Trustees have absolute discretion in this regard otherwise they'd be in breach of their responsibilities.

There have been periods when they have put large amounts in, technically in the form of loans, periods when they have put lesser but regular amounts in and periods such as the last couple of years when they have put nothing in.

The problem here is we can only make assumptions from the Accounts and snippets from statements made by people like John Williams. That is why I believe it would be in the best interests of everyone concerned if the club/Trustees clarified the provision made by Jack Walker for ongoing funding of the club. For example, what triggers payments to the club? Have the board got to request a donation? Is it related to the performance (financially and/or on field) of the club? Is it related to the financial performance of the business's within the Trust portfolio? I suspect it is the later and, as with many other companies and financial institutions, the Walker Trust has been badly affected by the financial crises in the economy with millions wrote off its value according to the UK's rich list. If the club and Trustees clarified the position they would face much less criticism borne on fans current ignorance of the facts.

What can be drawn from the club's accounts is that regular annual donations have been received from the Trust. Over £40m in loans were also converted into share capital soon after Jack Walker's death. With no dividends paid on those shares to all intent and purposes it meant the Trustees wrote the money off meaning that since Jack Walker's death Rovers have benefited by over £60m from his Trust, none of which has to be repaid. Do you really believe the Trustees would have given this level of financial support if it was discretionary rather than a requirement fot eh Trust Deed? Finding another benefactor both willing and able to GIVE the club that sort of financial support over the next 10 seasons will prove difficult if not impossible.