[Archived] Keith Andrews - Time He Went

[Jonnolad]

Just keeping this updated in case the Irish twit jonnolad returns.

Andrews has now started 4 out of the past 16 matches. That's what I call out of favour.

Let's get this straight - you've updated your claim that Andrews has fallen out of favour because.........he started last night that makes sense. I have to say that Sam has a bizarre way of showing whether players are in favour or not - he plays them when they're out of favour then does he?

You're not exactly the sharpest tool in the box are you

I'm not Irish incidentally - there's absolutely no Irish in our family in fact.

[jim mk2]

Let's get this straight - you've updated your claim that Andrews has fallen out of favour because.........he started last night that makes sense. I have to say that Sam has a bizarre way of showing whether players are in favour or not - he plays them when they're out of favour then does he?

So let's get this straight - just because Andrews started last night for only the 4th time in 16 games , after previously starting 12 out of 17, you consider him to be in favour ?

You must be even thicker than you already appear.

[Jonnolad]

"Straw man" is one of the best-named fallacies, because it is memorable and vividly illustrates the nature of the fallacy. Imagine a fight in which one of the combatants sets up a man of straw, attacks it, then proclaims victory. All the while, the real opponent stands by untouched.

^ This is the essence of your argument. You beat the same point again and again, despite the obvious flaw behind it. I guess you'd also argue that Ade Akinbiyi and Nigel Quashie are great players because of the managers that signed them?

While I'm here - we may as well pick up where we left off So just to recap the whole basis of this argument:

You say Andrews is dire - worst player in a rovers shirt etc etc. I say he's a decent squad player. Where do we go there then because both opinions can't be right. Should we just carry on saying the same thing over and over hoping in some bizarre way that will make one of us right:

“He's crap”, “no he's not”, “I'm right”, “you're wrong”, “he's crap”, “no he's not”- ad infinitum and nauseum.

Or should we be adults and look at other clues as to who's right? Hence in a contrasting diagreement such as this, would it not be reasonable to see what the professionals think? Yes or no? If it's a yes, why is that a straw man argument? Surely it's the only logical thing to do. And what do the professionals think? Well every single professional opinion we have (be they managers, or journalists or even the stats) all very strongly indicate that he's a competent player. Importantly as well, there is no professional opinion out there which backs up your dire assessment – if you know any then please speak up because the Andrews bashers have been oddly mute until now when it comes to any professional judgement which backs up their dire assessment.

The obvious question is therefore; why should I possibly change my own assessment and believe your dire assessment when it flies in the face of all the professional opinion? Why should I even consider changing my assessment when you have categorically nothing to back it up, other than "he's crap because I say he is"? I'm sorry but that isn't enough for me.

Look at this from another perspective as well - can you think of any other player who was so "dire", yet inexplicably he was consistently called up for his country over other established premier league players? Can you also think of any other player who was so dire but inexplicably his value more than doubled? I’m guessing it would be too much to ask you to name a player where both things inexplicably happened like it has with Keith.

None of this makes any sense of course unless your dire assessment is wrong - that's the problem you have. But again please tell me why I should believe all the managers / journalists / stats are wrong and I should believe your assessment? Surely that can’t be that hard.

I've said this before but the problem with Andrews with most fans is clearly the halo effect (or more specifically the reverse halo effect):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect

This is a scientifically proven psychological bias. If you are too daft to understand this concept and can't see how it applies here, then that's not my fault I’m afraid though

Incidentally, I see you are conveniently glossed over my question as to who is better Andrews or Rigters.

[Jonnolad]

So let's get this straight - just because Andrews started last night for only the 4th time in 16 games , after previously starting 12 out of 17, you consider him to be in favour ?

If Andrews was out of favour then he wouldn't have featured last night surely, and he certainly wouldn't have started.

Instead Andrews started last night and played the full 90 minutes. Hence by whatever yard stick you use, he definitely hasn't fallen out of favour - if anything he's fallen in favour. Just to reiterate - if he had fallen out of favour then he surely wouldn't have started last night. Unfortuantely for you though Jim he did.

If you want to know what out of favour truly is with Sam incidentally then look up Maceo Rigters, or Benni McCarthy, or Zurab Khizanishvili, or Keith Tracy, or Alan Judge. That's out of favour.

[jim mk2]

. And what do the professionals think? Well every single professional opinion we have (be they managers, or journalists or even the stats) all very strongly indicate that he's a competent player

Allardyce has picked Andrews 4 times in the past 16 matches after starting him in 12 out of the first 17 matches of the season, giving a strong indication that the manager has lost faith in the player.

Is that beyond your limited comprehension ?

[LeChuck]

yet inexplicably he was consistently called up for his country over other established premier league players?

Care to say who they are?

Last time I checked, Liam Miller was the substitute central midfielder and he didn't even have a club at the time. I think he's at Hibs now.

[brian_gallagher85]

I'm not getting involved in any "debate" over Andrews, however Trappatoni has continued to pick Keith over Andy Reid who can also play CM.

Back on topic, Keith put in a very solid performance last night and did the simple things right.

Well played Keith

[mellison24]

Andrews did everything that was asked of him last night apart from one occasion when he effectively gave their player the ball on the half-way line after trying some form of aerial backheel to retain possession. Otherwise, very steady performance. Keep it up lad and you'll do okay.

I cannot understand WHY there is a debate about R Keef. He isn't dire and nor is he awesome! He is a championship player in a premier league team and he does his best. You can't ask for more. It's not his fault he is here. BUT, let us not therefore come to the conclusion that he is what we need in the team. We need better players than him, but he's a good stop-gap and nothing more. When he plays well, he merely plays (by the teams' standard) average.

[Amo]

While I'm here - we may as well pick up where we left off So just to recap the whole basis of this argument:

You say Andrews is dire - worst player in a rovers shirt etc etc. I say he's a decent squad player. Where do we go there then because both opinions can't be right. Should we just carry on saying the same thing over and over hoping in some bizarre way that will make one of us right:

“He's crap”, “no he's not”, “I'm right”, “you're wrong”, “he's crap”, “no he's not”- ad infinitum and nauseum.

The crux of your argument is that Andrews is rated by experienced managers (Trapattoni, Allardyce etc.) My counterargument has always been that managers are not infallible, especially when we're talking about a handful of them. It's because you can't accept this point that we keep running around in circles. Of the 19 Premier League managers, only ONE of them showed a passing interest in Andrews, and never tested us with an offer. Yet, for some reason, this convinces you that Keith Andrews is definitively regarded in the Premier League and therefore places him above suspicion. That's a nonsense, and you know it. As for Allardyce and Trapattoni, they are two managers who work with one hand behind their back. Neither of them are exactly bursting with midfield options.

Keith Andrews was even transfer-listed (by request) at MK Dons before he joined here...but we were the ONLY side to show an interest (...thanks to Ince). There must be some reason why a 28 year old lower-league midfielder only got in the PL through a lucky break?

My opinion of Andrews hasn't changed. I still believe, when push comes to shove, he's out of his depth. Yet occasionally (such as yesterday) he blags it against the PL's lesser sides. I don't believe he brings anything to the team that someone like Alan Judge wouldn't - except he'd have the potential to improve.

[Mozzer]

the guy is useless and i cringe everytime i see him on the pitch - ive never booed tho and never will ...

sooner we git rid the better

[brian_gallagher85]

...says Roberts biggest fan

[Kelbo]

After another episode of Jonnolad extolling the virtues of Andrews and his total inability to answer my question as to where his abilities lie, ie: passing, pace, vision, flare, heading ability, tackling etc.

I will leave you with this,

illigitmi non carborundum.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Keith Andrews was even transfer-listed (by request) at MK Dons before he joined here...but we were the ONLY side to show an interest (...thanks to Ince). There must be some reason why a 28 year old lower-league midfielder only got in the PL through a lucky break?

I seem to remember at the time Leicester were also interested so this point you are making is not strictly true. I guess their loss is our gain sorry I meant our loss is their gain.

[Quinn the Eskimo]

Who knows what the professional opinion of Keith Andrews is anyway?

The fact that he gets picked (occassionally) for Rovers when a couple of other midfielders are injured and that he was held down a place in a limited Irish midfield for about 18 months is hardly a massive endorsement is it, lets deal with reality here???

Besides, why do you place so much trust in a proffessional opinion, do fans not watch football? are we incapable of recognising quality when we see it?

Andrews is totally out of his depth at this level and I wager that he would admit it himself in private, I have no personal animosity towards him and must admit that occassionally when he gets stuck in I can tolerate his presence on the pitch but to suggest that he is Premiership quality is simply ludicrous.

[Mozzer]

...says Roberts biggest fan

that was when nonda was the at the club when i stuck up for roberts - which was years ago

back to andrews - out his depth - runs around doing nothing .

[BPF]

"Who needs Robinho, we've got Keith Andrews"

Briliant. I heard three guys singing it last night.

The sarcastic tone of their voices summed my feelings up perfectly.

[sam_rovers]

Unfortunately, with clubs tightening up their spending, I dont think there will be any takers in summer... esp after we offered him a new contract last yr

[47er]

Unfortunately, with clubs tightening up their spending, I dont think there will be any takers in summer... esp after we offered him a new contract last yr

If Fulham were really prepared to pay 2M for him at the beginning of the season we should have snapped their hands off for it. However he doesn't feature much these days so I can't get all that worked up about him. Surprised to see him start against Hull but he surprised me by doing alright. Same goes for Doeuf come to that.

[Mr. E]

"Who needs Robinho, we've got Keith Andrews"

Briliant. I heard three guys singing it last night.

The sarcastic tone of their voices summed my feelings up perfectly.

Hasn't Andrews done more for us than Robinhio did for City? I know Robinhio scored a handful of goals early on, but then Andrews scored a couple match-winners for us too last season. Also he didn't cost 20 million or whatever the exact sum for Robinhio was.

[S15]

1.Hasn't Andrews done more for us than Robinhio did for City?2. I know Robinhio scored a handful of goals early on, but then Andrews scored a couple match-winners for us too last season.3. Also he didn't cost 20 million or whatever the exact sum for Robinhio was.

1. No.

2. Rohinho scored about 15 goals last season, and Andrews has never scored a winning goal for us.

3. Well no, of course he didn't, but stating this seems pointless.

[Mr. E]

1. No.

2. Rohinho scored about 15 goals last season, and Andrews has never scored a winning goal for us.

3. Well no, of course he didn't, but stating this seems pointless.

15? That's strange. I could have sworn he scored only a few in the beginning of the season and then got injured for the rest.

But not good enough for the great City I guess.

[S15]

He scored 14 league goals last season.

[bellamy11]

1. No.

2. Rohinho scored about 15 goals last season, and Andrews has never scored a winning goal for us.

3. Well no, of course he didn't, but stating this seems pointless.

2. Scored the second in the 2-1 away win at Hull last season. But no, nowhere near as many as Robinho for Citeh.

[S15]

I think it's important this Robinho/ Andrews comparison stops now.

[bellamy11]

I think it's important this Robinho/ Andrews comparison stops now.

I disagree. I think it's the future of this thread.