[Archived] Time Up Pompey?

[thenodrog]

Taken from Teamtalk

Andronikou is investigating every one of Portsmouth's transfers in the hope of discovering how the club found themselves in such a financial mess, despite raising around £100million in player sales over the last 20 months.

One line of inquiry is whether the money Pompey received for players was the same as the reported amounts.

"Everyone asks how Portsmouth can generate so many funds from player sales but be left with residual liabilities," Andronikou explained.

"I am going to go through every transfer on a one-by-one basis. The transfers that have been reported in the press, I am told, aren't actually the figures of the funds received by the club.

Hmmm.... seems some serious skullduggery as taken place at the club.

Russain Jewish Arms dealer? Dodgy Arabs?

'Fit and proper'? Scudamore must be shifting uncomfortably in his seat I'd imagine.

[gumboots]

So it's well and good to win the FA Cup with players you couldn't afford, but once you're up slack alley you want an even playing field?

Quite agree. They had advantages over other clubs because they played players they were not able to pay for and only just managed to pay. So why the heck shouldn't they be docked points? I'm tired of their bleating like the other teams are trying to put one over on them or something. So far, despite their problems teams like Hull and West Ham have managed to meet their financial obligations and their players are being paid. Liverpool and Man Utd owe vast amounts but their players are paid and as far as we know the taxman i.e. you and me is not owed money.

[philipl]

I know for sure that the press seriously over stated the actual values of some of Pompey's sales.

However, that BBC article which suggested there is more sinister stuff to come out. Don't forget the administrator was appointed by Chanrai so whilst legally independent, he probably has done a deal to sell the club back shorne of its debts if he can.

[Stuart]

It'll be absolutely scandalous if these jokers aren't docked 9-points.

No shame.

[Paul]

How the rest of us are fairing in the debt lge table

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-debt-league-how-much-do-clubs-owe-1912244.html

The arrogance, stupidity and incompetence of those running football in England is breathtaking. It's clear the game is a busted flush being supported by wealthy foreigners. Can it last? Unlikely in my view because when things get tough these people will find ways to secure their loans andwalk away. Can't help but feel Portsmouh will not be the last club to go under.

[Hughesy]

Bolton are in a bad way....relegation would cripple them

Bolton Wanderers

Turnover: £52.3m

Operating profit: –£5.3m

Net debt: £58.4m

Interest payment: £3.9m

Not a healthy picture. Bolton rely on the backing of their owner Edwin Davies. The latest accounts show that the club owes its parent company £55.9m. Moreover, this borrowing does not come for free: £23m is repayable on demand and has an interest rate of 10 per cent. A further £11.5m is secured on future TV money. The threat of relegation is real – as is the prospect of a financial crunch

and Hull

Turnover: £11.2m

Operating profit: –£9.2m

Net debt: £17.1m

Interest payment: £0.4m

An accident waiting to happen. The note from the accountants in the club's 07-08 accounts says that if the Tigers are relegated they will need to generate a financial surplus of £23m to avoid meltdown this financial year. And even if Hull survive in the Premier League, they will need to generate a £16m surplus. The accounts also show a £22m bank loan, with £12m repayable within a year.

[47er]

Bolton are in a bad way....relegation would cripple them

Bolton Wanderers

Turnover: £52.3m

Operating profit: –£5.3m

Net debt: £58.4m

Interest payment: £3.9m

Not a healthy picture. Bolton rely on the backing of their owner Edwin Davies. The latest accounts show that the club owes its parent company £55.9m. Moreover, this borrowing does not come for free: £23m is repayable on demand and has an interest rate of 10 per cent. A further £11.5m is secured on future TV money. The threat of relegation is real – as is the prospect of a financial crunch

and Hull

Turnover: £11.2m

Operating profit: –£9.2m

Net debt: £17.1m

Interest payment: £0.4m

An accident waiting to happen. The note from the accountants in the club's 07-08 accounts says that if the Tigers are relegated they will need to generate a financial surplus of £23m to avoid meltdown this financial year. And even if Hull survive in the Premier League, they will need to generate a £16m surplus. The accounts also show a £22m bank loan, with £12m repayable within a year.

Sorry if I'm being thick but how come there is such a discrepancy between Bolton's turnover and Hull's?

[stuwilky]

Sorry if I'm being thick but how come there is such a discrepancy between Bolton's turnover and Hull's?

Because the figures date from a season Hull were in Division Two I think.

[Neil Weaver]

Seconds out, round two........ Portsmouth are ordered back to court by HMRC

[Seggie]

Does this mean they could be wound up tomorrow?

[Baz]

Taken from Teamtalk

Andronikou is investigating every one of Portsmouth's transfers in the hope of discovering how the club found themselves in such a financial mess, despite raising around £100million in player sales over the last 20 months.

One line of inquiry is whether the money Pompey received for players was the same as the reported amounts.

"Everyone asks how Portsmouth can generate so many funds from player sales but be left with residual liabilities," Andronikou explained.

"I am going to go through every transfer on a one-by-one basis. The transfers that have been reported in the press, I am told, aren't actually the figures of the funds received by the club.

Hmmm.... seems some serious skullduggery as taken place at the club.

It'll be interesting to see if there were any differences between the value paid out by the buying club and the amounts that hit the club accounts.

[Billy Castell]

I think we'll be in a bit of bother in a couple of years time if that link is anything to go by. Hopefully by then Kalinic will be the new Shearer and we flog him to Barcelona for £40m..................

As for HRMC taking Pompey to court, is there still the chance of Pompey being wound up, or is the taxman trying to push to the top of the queue for money whilst they're in administration?

[brian_gallagher85]

I don't think they can be wound up while they're in administration.

[Beta Ray Bill]

I don't think they can be wound up while they're in administration.

HRMC are challenging the right to enter into Administration. They claim the owner didn't have the right sort of debenture on the ground.

[philipl]

This Telegraph article explains all and I am reversing my optimistic prognosis for Pompey of a few days ago. Whilst Chainrai clearly has an excape route all plotted out for himself and something called Portsmouth FC (albeit a club that owns little more than player registrations and a place in the second division), HMRC are quite rightly saying this all looks too dodgy to be true.

I had been wondering whether the Pompey goings on were breaking the law and this Telegraph article clearly shows HMRC consider it is all too dodgy for words- no doubt HMRC have ears who have picked up on the rumours the BBC alluded to and which are now in the "worst kept secret" category.

HMRC are going straight for the achiles heel in asking what Zihavi has been doing all this time in the Pompey morass and the HMRC powers of investigation are in many ways greater than the Police's these days. Whilst there are a bunch of non-UK Israelis (mostly), a Saudi and a HK involved, they have the problem that the assets and money (what is left) are firmly domiciled in the UK.

There are two killer points:

- Administrators do not go in for the high profile blah blah that Andronikou has indulged in. The guy has run a PR campaign, not an administration as far as I can see; basically there is a stitch up and he is fronting up is what the HMRC must be thinking and the HMRC probably see so many holes in Pompey that they want to make an example for ALL administrations, not just football ones. I will be very surprised if the Court does not at least reverse the Voluntary Administration engineered by Chainrai and put there own Administrator in but straightforward liquidation is once again a real possibility.

- Jacobs resigned from his law firm yesterday. You don't resign as a law firm partner at such a sensitive time unless you have to. Jacobs' partners have seen/know enough to no longer want to be associated with him. That is probably understating the severity of the matter.

Tucked away at the bottom of that Pompey piece is some information about the other member of the PL's gruesome twosome. West Ham have paid £34m to Ljundberg and that other non-performer as well as hooking themselves for millions to Ashton.

How could Rovers compete when mid-level clubs similar to themselves tried to break all the laws of gravity? West Ham and Pompey have wrecked the benefits of being in the PL for Rovers.

[den]

what does all this add up to Philip?

[Stuart]

I also read a piece on the BBC website that Pompey are looking to sell players outside the window and have them loaned back til the end fo the season. Well, first, I thought they had already been told no to the selling of players and, second, isn't there a maximum number of loanees possible?

Shall we just change the rules completely and give Pompey 6 points for a win and 3 for a defeat?

[Seggie]

also introduced convicted fraudster Daniel Azougy to help run the club' date=' but within four months it was in administration.[/quote']

[T4E]

I also read a piece on the BBC website that Pompey are looking to sell players outside the window and have them loaned back til the end fo the season. Well, first, I thought they had already been told no to the selling of players and, second, isn't there a maximum number of loanees possible?

Shall we just change the rules completely and give Pompey 6 points for a win and 3 for a defeat?

If the Premier League have any sense they wont deviate from the established regulations. To do so and potentially see Pompey survive at the expense of another side would be a scandal that would rumble on for years ala the Tevez affair.

All these examples continue to emphasise just how poorly the game is run in this country.

[nicko]

If the Premier League have any sense they wont deviate from the established regulations. To do so and potentially see Pompey survive at the expense of another side would be a scandal that would rumble on for years ala the Tevez affair.

All these examples continue to emphasise just how poorly the game is run in this country.

It's in the regulations that the Premier can help 'clubs in distress' but this is at their discretion...and obviously the other clubs will be asked first and have to approve it.

The money is due to Portsmouth, it's just a matter of bringing it forward. Sensible solution. They won't benefit - they will lose the nine points as part of the deal.

[T4E]

What sort of majority would the PL clubs have to vote to in order for the PL to be able to help them out?

Regarding the 9 points - I'm sure I'd read the administrator was looking in to the possibility of challenging the automatic penalty for going in to administration. I take it you dont see much chance of success for them in that.

[nicko]

What sort of majority would the PL clubs have to vote to in order for the PL to be able to help them out?

Regarding the 9 points - I'm sure I'd read the administrator was looking in to the possibility of challenging the automatic penalty for going in to administration. I take it you dont see much chance of success for them in that.

I hear it would take a 14-6 vote to OPPOSE the idea...so it's going to happen.

The administrator was talking out of his backside about fighting the penalty. There is a deal in place to swap points for cash.

Some of the PR and statements around this really make you cringe. I am sure the Premier League high-ups would be happy to see this mob disappear, but they want the season to be completed first. That is fair for everyone else too.

[philipl]

The Judge's jedgement is reported by the BBC here

It is the norm in any voluntary winding up that the Directors appoint the administrator. However, as I pointed out previously, Pompey kept soldiering on making the eventual day of reackoning worse and worse for themselves. They opted to go through the first winding up procedings against HMRC when the Court appointed its own reporting accountants to establish the state of affairs at the club. From that point on, it would be the norm that the Court appointed accountants would become the administrator or liquidator.

Instead Chainrai appointed Andronikou as administrator whom as I pointed out this morning has been carrying on like the club's PR man and not the Administrator. HMRC smelled a stitch up and went to the High Court again and have substantially won their case to quote the BBC:

Mr Justice Norris ordered a ruling into Andronikou's appointment in two weeks... and the judge ruled the "shadow over the appointment should be removed".

This is creating a tough test for Andronikou- the Judge is in effect saying it looks dodgy to me and is in effect placing the onus of proof on the Administrator.

Any normal professional administrator would immediately resign as he cannot have his integrity impugned in this way. Once again the Pompey powers are gambling that:

- Andronikou's appointment can somehow be shown to have no shadow- the onus of proof is on proving the negative which is a very difficult thing to prove.

- Andronikou somehow manages not to resign and still retain credibility in the eyes of the Judge

- If they survive the hearing in two weeks, HMRC haven't got more legal redress lined up against Andronikou

- If they don't survive in two weeks, they can somehow cut a deal with a mega angry HMRC for them not to go for an immediate winding up and initiating criminal proceedings against Andronikou and the Pompey Directors for a falacious administration as well.

I suspect that at the very least, this is the reason why Mark Jacobs' partners booted him out of their firm yesterday- Jacob was a Pompey director.

[philipl]

I hear it would take a 14-6 vote to OPPOSE the idea...so it's going to happen.

The administrator was talking out of his backside about fighting the penalty. There is a deal in place to swap points for cash.

Some of the PR and statements around this really make you cringe. I am sure the Premier League high-ups would be happy to see this mob disappear, but they want the season to be completed first. That is fair for everyone else too.

Considering our failure to sign Diarra was caused by Pompey funny money and was the start of Rovers' decline, our board would be bonkers not to vote for the penalty.

There are certainly at least 5 other PL clubs with grievances against Pompey.

[T4E]

EDIT: Penny dropped.