[Archived] Time Up Pompey?

[yoda]

'Lousy corksuckers, this summanambitchin' country is full of iceholes'

the FA could always deport Pompey to Sweden, but they would just say they are not from there!

Michael Keaton's best film by far I reckon

[gumboots]

We can all feel as sorry as we like for the genuine lifelong fans whose club is under threat because of the actions of the people currently and recently in charge. However, ultimately someone has to take responsibility for the mess they have got into. Our school talks about rights AND responsibility but how are you meant to teach that to kids if they see all around them people escaping the consequences of their actions? It's why Terry had to lose the captaincy; it's why Portsmouth must at the very least be relegated and made to pay every possible penny. It's not vindictive. It's the only way that they and others stand a chance of realising that ultimately you reap what you sow. People will still be bad at realising it could happen to them too. They'll still hope to get away with things. However, every time someone has the effects of their decisions catch up with them, there's a chance that just a few others may pull back and not get into situations they'd be better avoiding. If one club avoids overspending because Portsmouth go out of business at worst or continue to trade in a lower league, then that has to be a good thing.

[den]

A "premier league source" has denied that Pompey could be forwarded parachute payments.

Portsmouth News

Pompey aren't guaranteed to recieve their FA Cup money.

Sky.

[Hughesy]

Its just a never ended cycle of trouble for them - shut them down!!

[philipl]

The last thing the PL will want is for the League to be disrupted by Pompey being wound up and failing to deliver the games they contracted with BSkyB et al. Therefore I believe nicko is correct that the PL are looking through the administrator at how they can get cash direct to HMRC and remaining football creditors. Pompey being in the position they are in have to be incredibly careful to avoid preference between creditors except where there are actual contractual obligations. And even recently obtained security on secured loans with connected persons can be struck off as I suspect a more neutral administrator than Andronikou would probably seek to do with Chainrai's preferred status.

I guess the PL could be embarassed by more than "just" a member folding were Pompey to disappear so there is a big personal interest on the part of Scudamore et al to see the Pompey saga through and deliver the car wreck safely to the Football League. More prosaically, all of football must now be seriously worried by how angry HMRC are about Pompey and the fact the tax man will be taking no prisoners whatsoever on football debts in the future if they don't get their £18m back from the Pompey wreck.

Therefore for the sake of struggling clubs the length and breadth of Britain I sincerely hope the PL find a way of getting the £18m owed into the hands of HMRC.

As things stand it looks like it will need some sort of miracle for Pompey to be kicking off in any senior league next season. Combined debts and running costs to 30 June are in the region of £85m while the PL advance is £32m and at most and other income will be £12m to £15m. So that looks like Pompey dropping into the Championship with a debt three times greater than their future annual income and a bunch of continuing PL wages to support- just not a serious scenario. This is not so much inviting people holding contracts or amounts owing from Pompey to take a haircut as asking them to decapitate themselves which in reality means calling in the liquidators.

This is a tragedy for Pompey fans but if it were Rovers in this situation, I'd have reached the position now of looking forwards to renewing rivalries with Darwen next year as sweet relief from the unending embarasment the club had become.

[gumboots]

Bring back capital punishment too!!!

Only kidding gumboots. Well summed up IMO. It should set an example for others because ultimately somebody else pays for their misfortune - a bit like bankruptcy. Except you'd have thought clubs like Pompey would have learned from Leeds, Sheff Wed, etc.

I know it sounds draconian and really I'm a softie at heart, whose bark is much worse than my bite. And I did say there'll always be some who never learn, just like the kids who start smoking thinking it won't be them that develop lung cancer or whatever because those sort of things always happen to other people. But sometimes warnings do work and i think that Portsmouth have to take their medicine for the sake of the one or two clubs it just might scare enough to put their own house in order.

[Seggie]

For the sake of football Pompey need to crash and burn. The PL needs a wake-up call but at present all they have to do is find a bit of petty cash. £32m to save the face of the PL is small beer - can you just imagine what the guys at Sky are whispering to Scudamore and his band of muppets? The PL chairman, the FA and the PL management have consistently p!ssed billions down the drain when an opportunityexisted to secure the future of the game in this country and now they are reaping their reward. I hope Portsmouth are liquidated and the PL have to face the consequences, it would be a small price to pay.

This makes me so angry. The PL want nothing more than to sweep the mess under the carpet, by the cleaners to clean the carpet and then chuck the whole lot over the Football League. There is no question of trying to support Pompey, it's all about saving face. Disgusting behaviour on the part of the PL

I can't disagree with most of this argument. I agree the PL will do whatever to save face of its product in a Global market along with Sky and their major sponsors and then dump it on the football league. Afterall isn't that how business works by taking calculated risks?

What I don't get is the willingness to see other football fans suffer the loss of their club. The argument that they enjoyed the good times whilst investors were pumping money in isn't exactly fair on them after all we enjoyed the good times from our very own Jack Walker. The difference is he wanted to ensure the long term security of the club, whereas Pompey fans got the good times, thought their club had a long term future but have been seriously let down by disgraceful, negligant and some may alledge criminal behaviour by its owners/directors.

Theno mentioned they failed to learn from Leeds, thats not the fault of the fans, its the fault of the owners/board, the PL and the FA. The PL and the FA along with the Football League should look at the situation and think along the lines of, "if we do somehow manage to save this club how can we stop this from happening again?" Perhaps if the PL pay out early they should play in League 1 next year or start the next season on a -30pts deficit in the Championship that way nobody would get themselves in such a situation again. Leeds never really suffered any sanctions whilst they were in a mess in the top flight, perhaps this is why nobody learnt any lessons.

I suppose my argument is do whatever it takes to keep them in business but make sure the implications are so strong that this can never happen again.

On a side note how is it that football creditors get paid first rather than HMRC? Surely it should be the other way round, therefore if football creditors don't get paid they simply don't do business with the club again.

[broadsword]

Why didn't Portsmouth simply consolidate their debts into one easily affordable monthly payment?

They could've found a bit of gold lying about and stuck it in the post.

[jodrell]

Refom as Pompy Doms

[yoda]

I can't disagree with most of this argument. I agree the PL will do whatever to save face of its product in a Global market along with Sky and their major sponsors and then dump it on the football league. Afterall isn't that how business works by taking calculated risks?

What I don't get is the willingness to see other football fans suffer the loss of their club. The argument that they enjoyed the good times whilst investors were pumping money in isn't exactly fair on them after all we enjoyed the good times from our very own Jack Walker. The difference is he wanted to ensure the long term security of the club, whereas Pompey fans got the good times, thought their club had a long term future but have been seriously let down by disgraceful, negligant and some may alledge criminal behaviour by its owners/directors.

Theno mentioned they failed to learn from Leeds, thats not the fault of the fans, its the fault of the owners/board, the PL and the FA. The PL and the FA along with the Football League should look at the situation and think along the lines of, "if we do somehow manage to save this club how can we stop this from happening again?" Perhaps if the PL pay out early they should play in League 1 next year or start the next season on a -30pts deficit in the Championship that way nobody would get themselves in such a situation again. Leeds never really suffered any sanctions whilst they were in a mess in the top flight, perhaps this is why nobody learnt any lessons.

I suppose my argument is do whatever it takes to keep them in business but make sure the implications are so strong that this can never happen again.

On a side note how is it that football creditors get paid first rather than HMRC? Surely it should be the other way round, therefore if football creditors don't get paid they simply don't do business with the club again.

The fans wishes/feelings went out of the window when clubs were allowed to change to PLC status

[philipl]

Interesting juxtaposition today.

Andronikou has placed a price of £30m on selling the name of Portsmouth FC (that is just about all there is left there!).

Newcastle have withdrawn themselves from sale as there was no market for the club.

[yoda]

Interesting juxtaposition today.

Andronikou has placed a price of £30m on selling the name of Portsmouth FC (that is just about all there is left there!).

Newcastle have withdrawn themselves from sale as there was no market for the club.

He valued the playing staff at 38 million

how a club can be worth 30 mill with 70 mill debt and about to get relegated with the loss of major revenue is unbelievable

what price Blackburn Rovers on that basis?

[Earlydoors]

Andronikou has placed a price of £30m on selling the name of Portsmouth FC (that is just about all there is left there!).

On the contrary I don't think there is anything there of value. However Banram Chanrai is in for £30m and its the best way for him to recover his cash.

If I had £30m I'd bet it on Pompey being liquidated.

[Billy Castell]

Sounds like Pompey will be liquidated this season or next. I agree with the people who say the PL will advance the parachute money just so Portsmouth can survive long enough to be dumped on the FL. As for the rights to Portsmouth FC, I reckon it'll be in a Christmas cracker as a joke, be one of those 'adopt a donkey' type of things, or fobbed off to some mug in a poker game like Arty Ziff's dodgy company on that episode of the Simpsons.

[den]

how a club can be worth 30 mill with 70 mill debt and about to get relegated with the loss of major revenue is unbelievable

There wont be a debt though. The administrator will pay off the creditors with a derisory offer, then new owners will step in debt free. ALA Leeds Utd.

[philipl]

There wont be a debt though. The administrator will pay off the creditors with a derisory offer, then new owners will step in debt free. ALA Leeds Utd.

There is a catch 22 here.

Whilst the HMRC are owed, their agreement is needed to any payoff by the administrator, derisory or not, for them to exit administration.

If the HMRC are bought off by a handsome offer, the administrator is obliged to be even handed with the other unsecured creditors.

It took Leeds two relegations and two points deductions to get to where they are today with huge bonuses payable to creditors of the old regime should they reach the PL again.

[gumboots]

There is a catch 22 here.

Whilst the HMRC are owed, there agreement is needed to any payoff by the administrator, derisory or not, for them to exit administration.

If the HMRC are bought off by a handsome offer, the administrator is obliged to be even handed with the other unsecured creditors.

So if he pays them say half of what they are owed, he has to pay all the others who are not football related debt half of what they are owed too, and obviously if he can't do that then there is still debt and they can't come out of admin unless someone buys who takes on that debt and will sort it? Is that about it?

[den]

There is a catch 22 here.

Whilst the HMRC are owed, there agreement is needed to any payoff by the administrator, derisory or not, for them to exit administration.

If the HMRC are bought off by a handsome offer, the administrator is obliged to be even handed with the other unsecured creditors.

It took Leeds two relegations and two points deductions to get to where they are today with huge bonuses payable to creditors of the old regime should reach the PL again.

Ah right, thanks Philip. Shows what I know.

So what chance that HMRC will settle for a low pay off? Would they be obliged to settle for a low pay off, rather than forcing Pompey into liquidation?

[philipl]

Yes, he cannot view creditors within a class (secured vs unsecured) any more or less favourably.

In my view, the Administrator should be in the High Court looking to unwind Chainrai's security over the club and its assets and the fact he is not will count against him in this attempt to remove the shadow as the Judge put it earlier this week.

If Chainrai drops to the unsecured level, he has some money to work with for all the other creditors and has something to sell for the £30m asking price. Otherwise it all looks pretty futile.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Interesting juxtaposition today.

Andronikou has placed a price of £30m on selling the name of Portsmouth FC (that is just about all there is left there!).

Newcastle have withdrawn themselves from sale as there was no market for the club.

And to juxtapose that - just underlines the reason why there should have been a proper governing and regulation of finances within the game so as to be run it as a sport and not a gambling business subject.

[TimmyJimmy]

Yes, he cannot view creditors within a class (secured vs unsecured) any more or less favourably.

In my view, the Administrator should be in the High Court looking to unwind Chainrai's security over the club and its assets and the fact he is not will count against him in this attempt to remove the shadow as the Judge put it earlier this week.

If Chainrai drops to the unsecured level, he has some money to work with for all the other creditors and has something to sell for the £30m asking price. Otherwise it all looks pretty futile.

Not my turf at all but I thought that HMRC was 'preferred' and was always at the top of the pile of creditors. Even handedness and the issues of preference (fraudulent or otherwise) I thought belonged to the other asset classes. These big words sound like I know what I'm talking about, but I don't, genuine question.

No response from anyone on my earlier question - can the Championship refuse to take a relegated club if they are not 'fit and proper'. If they haven't they should have. Pompey would then effectively cease to exist as they would have no pro league to play in and therefore no revenues. Any ideas? Nicko?

[stuwilky]

No response from anyone on my earlier question - can the Championship refuse to take a relegated club if they are not 'fit and proper'. If they haven't they should have. Pompey would then effectively cease to exist as they would have no pro league to play in and therefore no revenues. Any ideas? Nicko?

The football league have membership criteria which are required to be met, now ask me what they are and I don't know but I believe it includes financial criteria as well (but then again so does the Premier League)

[LeChuck]

Not my turf at all but I thought that HMRC was 'preferred' and was always at the top of the pile of creditors.

I'm sure I read recently that ceased to be the case a few years ago, hence why they are becoming more pushy in claiming money owed to them.

[nicko]

No response from anyone on my earlier question - can the Championship refuse to take a relegated club if they are not 'fit and proper'. If they haven't they should have. Pompey would then effectively cease to exist as they would have no pro league to play in and therefore no revenues. Any ideas? Nicko?

The Championship take the club on...if there was a change of ownership AFTER that point there could be a 'fit and proper' test. But some would say their 'fit and proper' tests are as useless as the Premier League's. There are plenty of dodgepots at those levels too.

[Earlydoors]

No response from anyone on my earlier question - can the Championship refuse to take a relegated club if they are not 'fit and proper'. If they haven't they should have. Pompey would then effectively cease to exist as they would have no pro league to play in and therefore no revenues. Any ideas? Nicko?

I think the Football League can withhold the 'Golden Share' until a club in administration agree a Creditor Voluntary Agreement. Therefore if Pompey don't reach agreement with their creditors in time they will not start next season's fixtures.