[Archived] Hull Preview

[S15]

Didn't Brum spend over £10m on a centre forward?

[Majiball]

There is no doubt that our lads could play a "more balanced style" Maj. We just need to cut out the long punts upfield from Robbo and take a few short throw-ins, for starters. I think the discussion is more about this desire to be "entertained". To me, entertainment is about defenders bringing the ball down and playing it short to the lads in front of them. It's about watching a Tugay masterclass. It's about having wingers who can go past a full back and put in a pin point cross. It's about strikers turning and hitting the target from 25 yards out. It's about strikers powering home headers. More than anything it's about exciting the fans with goals.

In our squad, who's going to do any of those things. Many people on here reckon you can teach just about any skill to a player. IMO, you can't.

You'll wish you hadn't caught me on my day off!!!!

You'll get no argument from me on Robbo's distribution he has to vary it up a lot more. The part I don't understand with him is that surely if he's being asked to add variety then we would see it in the game, but we don't. Now whether this is under instruction or simply because our full backs don't show enough I'm not too sure, my time at Ewood this year has been limited. But either way if it was an issue for the coaches then something would have changed, it hasn't. Again though is this because they feel it opens us up too much or is it because they just don't want to do it???

The throw ins well I raised this point at the beginning of the season when it became obvious we only have one type. Now when I consider that Sam is a stat's man, I must admit I get confused as the success rate for these throw-ins is very low. All I have to do as the opposing manager is say to my tallest center back + one to mark Samba, job done we just made them in-effective. So you'll get no argument from me on those, variety and variability make the opposition think and force them to make decisions, we currently make them for them and as such lower the difficulty level for the opposing team in them regaining possession or stifling our threat.

Even changing those two things would introduce more entertainment to our game. My main bug-bite at present is we are one of the most predictable teams in the league there is no surprise and those that go every game, now know exactly whats coming next in certain situations. Surely if the fans see it then so do the opposing managers.

Now from your comments you've highlighted the style that we Rovers have played for quite some time all the way back to the onset of this league. I to am a great fan of wing play and crosses they create good opportunities to score and always will. But your right in the point you raise that we lack players that can do this, Diouf, Ped's, Emerton, Olsson not one of them has a great consistent cross. But we also lack the strikers to thrive on this type of play when they are the only available target. But that doesn't mean that we must just get it forward asap.

I've always felt that we need another supporting the main striker, not a hole player or the such but someone with him. We persistently lose the ball when its played up front in the direct format. Especially against the lanky hulk types that all defences have in our league. Its a ball the defender is favourite to win he has the advantage of being able to meet the ball in a forwards direction, where he will always be able to out jump the striker who is back peddling. When I consider this combined with a general direct style of play, its one of the main reasons I feel the entertainment factor has gone, we predominately give the possession away cheaply and quickly.

Having two up top would allow us to exploit the space created behind the full backs, as with most teams nowadays they push on up the pitch almost as wingers. But as we stand at present the lone man can't do this as the defender goes with him and the two left only have the winger to worry about, as the sitter has the hole player. With another man we could create more 4 v 4 situations giving us a better advantage and increasing our chances of keeping the ball once its up there. At present when Kalinic gets the ball he's at best 2 v 1 and mainly 3 v 1 he has no hope really and with the rest so deep the has no outlet and must try and retain the ball, not an easy job and he's never the favourite. So again we place to much pressure on his young shoulders and his role is incredibly hard. I just cannot think of a 21 year old who can do this role in any league in Europe of the top of my head. So why do we think Kalinic can? The lad is screaming out for support and his very limited success for me will only hinder his development, long term.

Midfield is an issue though and whilst we most definitely do not have a "passer" in the middle or anywhere, we do have players that are competent at this skill. We always play to feet and their really isn't much difference between a pass to a players foot and a pass that is about 1-2 meters away from him, something I do believe our players should be capable of doing. Passes like that give the receiver the time and space to turn, to think and to act. Its also much harder for the defending team as you have two attention points the ball and the player, again making them think more and guess/decide where they must go. If they come with you have created some space behind, where they were and you also distort their defencive line again creating opportunity. If they hold you have created some space for yourself anyway giving you vital time to act and decide.

For me the way we pass our shorter balls makes it easier for the opposition to win it back and consequently makes it much harder for us to play this way. Our movement or complete lack of it from the player that plays the pass again makes it harder for us to play. But I must consider other issues as well, would any of our players have made it to this level in their current style of playing? I don't believe they would have, so surely they must have had that ability at one stage. Now injuries permitting where has it gone? Ince was the start of the issue he wanted to play a very expansive attacking game that required many long highly accurate cross field balls, especially form out wide. We're talking hoddle like skill for those to persistently work, so again we are not dealing in players strengths but managers philosophies. Last year after Sam came we adopted a style that meant just hitting it towards a 6 5" man mountain, so we had spent 12 months with our players not really using some of the skills that they need to play a more simple passing game. Please also consider the quality of coaching they have had in that time as well, especially the dinosaur brigade.

Now though I would draw peoples attention to two games this season, Man City at Home and Sunderland away. We most certainly where not as direct/long as we are now. Yes we drew one and lost the other, just, but we played with style and verf (sp??), two midfielders sitting back allowing the wingers & full backs to take a higher starting position and we attacked all day down those flanks. For me those two games prove that not only can Sam do something different but we can be effective in creating a better more entertaining style of football with what we have. It was only silly individual errors that meant we lost at Sunderland. We had a high number of shots, created good openings in both games and kept the ball better. So what has happened??

For me Sam decided it wouldn't work that he couldn't make it work so he reverted back to what he knows, he has played the same way at every club to date, regardless and for me thats poor. We do not have the players for the system but yet we persist in trying it and I'm beginning to think we always will. Science as Sam is heralded for embracing requires one to be open and receptive to new ideas, but yet from what I have seen across his tenure he most certainly is not as he always falls back on what he knows, that is not a scientific approach.

I honestly think that if we were to adopt a few of the idea's I have mentioned then we would see better football at Ewood and away from home and with that the entertainment factor would return. Because for me at present watching Rovers is like watching the same film over and over with slight changes to the script and one or actors changing as well. But at the end of the day its the same film, would you be entertained in that scenario? No-one would and frustration will follow amongst some of the fans, the rest will become accepting of the situation, it just natural.

I do not accept the current situation and never will, every piece of knowledge I have acquired across the years tells me we can do better and are capable of doing so, from all levels of the club. But whlist we persist as we are and change does not come to Ewood's pitch and certain other aspects, I will be worried about where we will end up in the future.

And no that was not a call for Sam to go, but for adaptation and progression to occur.

[Gav]

Didn't Brum spend over £10m on a centre forward?

They didn't no, and even if they did we spent 6m.

[S15]

Pretty sure Benitez cost them around £10m.

[Gav]

Pretty sure Benitez cost them around £10m.

Think they have an option to buy, but irrelevant anyway.

[den]

You forgot the 6 at Arsenal too Den! I just think they look a bit more comfortable playing football, OK it's only been a sporadic bursts, and maybe in favourable circumstances, but they can only play whats in front of them.

I'm sure Sam regards it as too much of a gamble to let them play an open game every week, and rightly so I reckon, hence the performances highlighted by you were indeed cup games with little to lose. The WBA situation last year is his proof. But an increasing number of ST holders tell me they are put off big style by the lump it football, and Sam needs to be aware of this as eventually if his results tail off, and we don't seem to be making progress it's his job on the line.

I think it's the progress aspect we really want to see, show us that it won't always be like this.

Don't get me wrong Ozz, our football this season has largely been desperately poor and yep, I reckon rovers could well lose 50% of their season ticket holders. I thought that last season though - until JW came up with a great ST package. Less room for manouvre now though, admittedly.

All I'm really trying to say, is that we have sold all our "entertaining" footballers. Again, I know I'm repeating this, but you can't replace the likes of Bellamy, RSC, Bentley, Warnock, Friedel even Savage, on top of losing Tugay etc, etc without it affecting the level of performance. These were the entertainers. These had quality. Quality is entertainment. My only other point is that replacing Allardyce with A.N. Other wont improve results. Not with this squad of players. In fact there would be a real danger of a new manager losing it completely.

I don't really know where we go though. I suppose the best solution is for Sam to be given decent funds this summer and for him to bring in the quality we need. He's done that before, - not sure he can do it again. We have to get rid of this set piece garbage though.

[S15]

Think they have an option to buy, but irrelevant anyway.

They have bought him already.

That's not irrelevant as it means they have spent more than we spent all summer on one player, whereas you said they'd 'hardly spent a penny.'

[unluckymorton]

Pretty sure Benitez cost them around £10m.

£9m with 2 goals in 17 apps.

McFadden was £5m, Jerome £4m, Gardner £3.5m, O'Connor £3m. Collectively the region of £15m all at around the same time.

Birmingham have spent the cash and had time to develop the squad. We are trying to build a squad from nothing and some expect it to change over night!

[Ozz]

We have to get rid of this set piece garbage though.

That's the main thing. As I said earlier, I have the feeling that the players left, as poor as some of them are, could actually play a more short pass-based game.

[den]

That's the main thing. As I said earlier, I have the feeling that the players left, as poor as some of them are, could actually play a more short pass-based game.

I also get the impression that they don't believe in those tactics Ozz, which is no way forward.

[LeChuck]

Why are people making out like Birmingham are playing excellent football?

They've been grinding out scrappy 1-0 wins most of the season. They're not better to watch than we are.

[Majiball]

£9m with 2 goals in 17 apps.

McFadden was £5m, Jerome £4m, Gardner £3.5m, O'Connor £3m. Collectively the region of £15m all at around the same time.

Birmingham have spent the cash and had time to develop the squad. We are trying to build a squad from nothing and some expect it to change over night!

If we look at our spending in that time I'll wager we are quite close to them.

Grella £4m, Robbo £3.5M, Kalinic £6M, Givet £3.5M, we may have sold loads of quality but the signings we have made have not been the best in exchange.

Even though Hughes had said he couldn't keep it up, I do wonder who he would have signed with the funds we have spent in the last two seasons?

Why are people making out like Birmingham are playing excellent football?

They've been grinding out scrappy 1-0 wins most of the season. They're not better to watch than we are.

Your right, they kind of play like we did under Hughes.

But it obviously plays to their strenghts and its working well for them at present. So despite the grinding nature its far better than watching us put round players into a square hole system as we are at present.

[Gav]

They have bought him already.

That's not irrelevant as it means they have spent more than we spent all summer on one player, whereas you said they'd 'hardly spent a penny.'

They spent 9, we spent 6.

They play decent football, we don't.

[den]

I'm trying not to blame the manager for everything to goes on at Ewood, we don’t invest in the team, and sell our best assets, we’re only going one way given time, and that’s not the managers fault.

But you have to look at the style of play and the away form which to me is criminal. Ask anyone who made the trip to Anfield last season about the managers approach to away games. I don’t think we put a tackle in all day, and those poor sods that made the trip must have been fuming, the lads I know that went haven’t been away since.

I maintain, you have to be entertained, or see players giving 110%, as that’s entertainment in itself, but far to often, especially away from home, they don’t put the effort in. People have spent hundreds of pounds, and the manager is to blame for that lack of effort in my opinion.

This site is a tiny cross section of supporters in reality and doesn’t give us a true reflection of how the supporters are feelings. I can honestly say, in the real world, I have never known a manager hated by so many, and that is where I gage opinion.

Gav you so and so.

Difficult to argue with any of that.

[S15]

They spent 9, we spent 6.

They play decent football, we don't.

They've been back in the league 6 months, we've been back here for nearly a decade.

How many flashes in the pan have you seen and fade away? Frankly I couldn't be less envious of Birmingham, and I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion they play anything other than 'scrappily' is beyond me.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Boateng won his appeal against his red card.

Appeal success for Boateng

[RIML]

Boateng won his appeal against his red card.

Appeal success for Boateng

Michael Turner was suspended for an extra game for appealing against his elbow on Gareth Barry.

Although I thought Boateng's red card was harsh at the time, the more I look at it again, it gets worse. I don't understand how he has had his appeal upheld and Turner got an extra match ban.

[LeChuck]

They spent 9, we spent 6.

They play decent football, we don't.

Sorry but that's rubbish, you obviously never see Birmingham play and are just looking for an excuse to bash the team at the moment, like so many other people.

Birmingham are no better to watch than us. Do you know they've actually scored less goals than us this year? They get scrappy wins by having a solid defence and a hard working midfield. They're certainly not an eye pleasing team.

Pointless me saying this really, people will just invent something else then complain about it.

[Gav]

Sorry but that's rubbish, you obviously never see Birmingham play

You're in the minority Lechuck, loyalty is one thing, burying your head in the sand is another

They've been back in the league 6 months, we've been back here for nearly a decade.

How many flashes in the pan have you seen and fade away? Frankly I couldn't be less envious of Birmingham

Not envious, just showing what can be done with little money, but a bit of ambition on the pitch.

[LeChuck]

You're in the minority Lechuck, loyalty is one thing, burying your head in the sand is another

I see you just ignored the bit where I brought some facts into it.

As we've won three and drawn one out of our last five, the genuine complains that existed before this run have changed to bullshit moans, like this Birmingham one.

We're 11th in the league, we're on a good run. Accusing me of burying my head in the sand doesn't make any sense. People saying that Ince could turn it around when we were 5 points adrift were burying their heads...this is a totally different situation.

Anyway, that's beyond the point I wanted to make, I just wanted to correct you on Birmingham. The only thing they have over us is a more stable defence, that's why they've picked up more points. Nelsen and Samba could learn a thing or two from Dann and Johnson about consistency.

[thenodrog]

Goal - brilliant hold up play, superb pass from Pedersen, Olsson at pace scores goal. Though bad goal keeping - it was still an excellent goal - and no Dunny in sight.

Sometimes I think too many people watch Arsenal and United and expect us to play like them. Last night we were in control for most of the match - and there were moments of excellent play (Diouf's ball for Emerton was excellent). On another day we could have won by 3 or 4 goals - against a team that has just had excellent results against City and Chelsea - and who many Rovers fans thought we would struggle against.

People are too hung up on the myth around Sam's style of play. Maybe Robinson does launch every free kick into the box - and every throw in is a long one - but in between we actually played some reasonable football last night against a team who weren't afraid to put the boot in. I think we are too one dimensional at times - maybe Dunny or Basturk will change that - but the football last night was entertaining and nowhere near as bad as some people are making out. Unfortunately the anti-Sam people can't seem to get beyond our current manager and just take the team at face value.

The team regularly appears disjointed and inept for just one reason. We have no midfield general. We've been looking for one to replace / assist Tugay since Hughes came and still we have come up with nobody of the required quality. So many times this season but particularly the other night against Hull our midfield resembled a cross between headless chickens and a cubscout team where everybody rushes after the ball. 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 is irrelevant and so too is the underlying claims of 'hoofball' whatever that is, a proper experienced midfielder who can 'put his foot on the ball' and marshall and discipline the troops (and can stay fit) on the pitch is imo all we need to keep a necessary balance in the team and maintain a regular top 10 position.

[Exiled_Rover]

Grella can play that role, but as you've pointed out he's never fit.

[Gav]

I see you just ignored the bit where I brought some facts into it.

I chose to ignore the only fact in your post, because it neither proves nor disproves that Birmingham are playing better football than us.

What has the amount of goals scored got to do with the style football on offer?

I've seen Brum a number of times this season, against Chelsea and Man City springs to mind, they played attractive attacking football against better opposition on paper, far better than I've witnessed in a number of seasons.

Now that’s a fact, don’t ignore that.

[mellison24]

The team regularly appears disjointed and inept for just one reason. We have no midfield general. We've been looking for one to replace / assist Tugay since Hughes came and still we have come up with nobody of the required quality. So many times this season but particularly the other night against Hull our midfield resembled a cross between headless chickens and a cubscout team where everybody rushes after the ball. 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 is irrelevant and so too is the underlying claims of 'hoofball' whatever that is, a proper experienced midfielder who can 'put his foot on the ball' and marshall and discipline the troops (and can stay fit) on the pitch is imo all we need to keep a necessary balance in the team and maintain a regular top 10 position.

The closest we had to a midfield general in Hughes's time was Sav. How we cry out for that kind of influence in the team again!

Grella can play that role, but as you've pointed out he's never fit.

Possibly even Reidy judging by his few appearances this year. He's done okay. Put pressure on the players in possession and tackle hard. If I wanted to be silly, I would say he could be our bald Savage and may even be better at it (Irish men are harder than the Welsh).

[John]

Grella can play that role, but as you've pointed out he's never fit.

We do look more compact when Grella is in the team.

Overall, really think the central midfield that we have fielded for most matches this seasson has been woeful - then again, we have not been fortunate with injuries in that area.

Lucky that Nzonzi has done well and fitted in, particularly earlier in the season - and, seemingly, we are going to have to rely on a free transfer, Linganzi, to slot into the team in the future. He appears quite powerful physically - it was obviously an area (central midfield) Sam wanted to address in January.