[Archived] Hull Preview

[Gav]

How is that fact? That's your opinion, based on two games. People who saw us against Chelsea and away to Villa might make the same incorrect assessment about us.

Birmingham are dull, they scrap their win to victories with a hard working midfield and solid defence.

I've seen Birmingham a number of times, the football is far more impressive than we're being served up Lechuck.

And we’re not basing arguments on playing a side with only 10 men, or a cup semi final with nowt to play for either.

[tony gale's mic]

Crowd levels are an irrelevant measure as to who constitutes a premier league club and who doesn't. The premier league money has swept away all the past definitions. We deserve to be in this league more than some of the clubs around us and more than all but 1 club in the Championship. And if we are a championship club, then what are Burnley, Wigan, Bolton, Wolves, Pompey and Hull? If they are all 'punching above their weight' where are the other 7 premier league clubs to replace them? Sheff Weds with their ramshackle ground and p!ss poor squad?

We are no different to all the clubs around us. Some may have rich owners pumping in a bit of cash, but we get 45 million each year, which is 3 or 4 times any club in the championship apart from Newcastle. I've read on here that we have a championship squad. Really? Then why are we paying 40 million a year for it when real championship clubs pay 10 or less?

That's a wildly inaccurate analysis.

The TV money that clubs get is something that every single club gets and is more or less equal. The vast majority of this goes straight into the player's pockets and to a lesser extent transfer fees as we have to spend and offer Premier League wages to keep up with our peers.

The size of the catchment area, crowds etc however are a very variable factor throughout the league and have a huge impact on what we can spend.

We have clubs bordering us from all sides, we have to bring our ticket prices down to one of the lowest across all four divisions to get the punters in.

If we be generous and call our average home gate 25,000 with an average price per person of £20 (including walk on and S/T), we're talking £500,000 a game. If we call it 19 league games plus maybe 6 "other" games, cup etc then that's £12.5 million.

If we say the average Premier League club probably has an average gate of 40,000 with an average price per person of £35 then its £1.4 million a game and over 25 games in a season that'd be £35 million.

The exact numbers are just guesses but the proportional difference is something that cannot be argued with. And that's a huge difference, most of which can go straight back into offering better wages and shelling out more on transfers.

And if we look at the Championship and even beyond there's many clubs like Forest, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield United/Wednesday who if they get their act together on the pitch and get a good manager, there's massive scope for them to have sustained success in the Premier League as they have a big fanbase and can generate that sort of money from their gate receipts. We don't. There's also others like Bristol City who have a potentially massive catchment area and if they were to get promoted and kick on could have scope for stadium expansion etc. QPR have more money than us currently.

That's why people say we're punching above our weight and we really should be a Championship club when you look at our situation. And they're absolutely right but it's a testament to how good a club we are that we're doing so well given the circumstances.

[tony gale's mic]

I've seen Birmingham a number of times, the football is far more impressive than we're being served up Lechuck.

And we’re not basing arguments on playing a side with only 10 men, or a cup semi final with nowt to play for either.

Christ STFU about Birmingham already. Yes they're doing well this season but theyve been able to spend a bit more money than us for one. McLeish may well be a better manager than Allardyce but he's still yet to achieve anything like Sam's sustained success with Bolton.

Every year one club like Birmingham does well, but for every club like them doing well on not too many resources, there are literally dozens of clubs doing a hell of a lot worse. And even clubs like Birmingham usually fall away after a season or maximum two. Where did Charlton, Reading and Ipswich end up to name just three?

There's only two clubs in the current big money era I can think of that have done did what Birmingham are doing now for a few seasons as opposed to just one - Bolton under Sam and us under Souness and then Hughes (save the season when we changed managers).

[Gav]

Christ STFU about Birmingham already. Yes they're doing well this season but theyve been able to spend a bit more money than us for one.

Its a long story TGM, I won't bore you with the details or insist you read the last 6 pages or so

[FourLaneBlue]

Same around me Booth, and all my Rovers supporting mates, lads at work, chap in the chippy etc etc.

I’ve never know the like of it to be honest.

I think GAV is right on this...Sam seems to have split support to an amazing degree considering he got us out of relegation trouble, into a semi final and now we are mid-table. All in the course of just over a year. Pretty remarkable as if wasn't Sam Allardyce who had been at the helm they would likely be happy enough.

Yet he is about as popular as a smelly fart in a packed lift.

[broadsword]

I think GAV is right on this...Sam seems to have split support to an amazing degree considering he got us out of relegation trouble, into a semi final and now we are mid-table. All in the course of just over a year. Pretty remarkable as if wasn't Sam Allardyce who had been at the helm they would likely be happy enough.

Yet he is about as popular as a smelly fart in a packed lift.

That's pretty much it.

There's a lot of people not down with Sam's bad self.

[47er]

Nine out of every ten games being essentially dull is taxing the patience of a lot of fans

Have you watched any of the other games on tele? 9 out of 10 are absolute rubbish and they include games involving City and Villa.This is the reality of premier league football these days. Its the politics of fear. Nobody dare go down so almost every game is the same, each side cancels itself out and hopes for a break somewhere in the 90 minutes. Slowly but surely football in this country at this level is eating itself.

So what to do about it? Throw away the tactics that secure our safety in the Premiership and go down? Or carry on in the best way we can in the hope that somehow, sometime something will turn up? That's the real choice ahead of us. I've made mine, I'll be supporting the team.

That's a wildly inaccurate analysis.

The TV money that clubs get is something that every single club gets and is more or less equal. The vast majority of this goes straight into the player's pockets and to a lesser extent transfer fees as we have to spend and offer Premier League wages to keep up with our peers.

The size of the catchment area, crowds etc however are a very variable factor throughout the league and have a huge impact on what we can spend.

We have clubs bordering us from all sides, we have to bring our ticket prices down to one of the lowest across all four divisions to get the punters in.

If we be generous and call our average home gate 25,000 with an average price per person of £20 (including walk on and S/T), we're talking £500,000 a game. If we call it 19 league games plus maybe 6 "other" games, cup etc then that's £12.5 million.

If we say the average Premier League club probably has an average gate of 40,000 with an average price per person of £35 then its £1.4 million a game and over 25 games in a season that'd be £35 million.

The exact numbers are just guesses but the proportional difference is something that cannot be argued with. And that's a huge difference, most of which can go straight back into offering better wages and shelling out more on transfers.

That's why people say we're punching above our weight and we really should be a Championship club when you look at our situation. And they're absolutely right but it's a testament to how good a club we are that we're doing so well given the circumstances.

Agree with all this but I doubt that we get anything like half a million quid per home game. Ages ago, before prices went down, John Williams said we were averaging 13 quid per ticket. It must be less now so maybe 300000 quid per home game? Not disagreeing with you just saying its an even more uneven playing field !

[Miker]

I've been reading some of the messageboards at other clubs, out of interest and have realised that every club has the whinging fans. The most starking comparison was on a Spurs messageboard where the posters were having a go at Redknapp and Defoe. Now, whatever you might think of either of them, to try and twist it around and say they're really @#/? is incredible. They were saying that Defoe was just having a good run and isn't that great and Redknapp is terrible and has just been lucky. For a guy who has scored 20 goals this season and for a manager that last season saved them from the foot of the table and got them to finish 8th and has now had them fighting for a top 4 finish all season is just incredible. I am honestly at a loss for words.

It seems that fans' expectations are simply over the top and deluded. I think mellison and shillito have a point, and it's not just the fact that Sam is managing that has people disillusioned, but football in general. I think as has been mentioned by someone previously, we have lost our players people consider entertaining and were loved by the fans, so now there is a serious lack of interest in games. The only moderately exciting signings: Di Santo, Kalinic and Salgado have sparsely played this season and the fact that they haven't scored many goals and supposedly don't get enough chances angers people and makes them lose interest. The reason why people are angry at seeing Roberts or Andrews come on is because they simply don't want to see them, whether they do a good job that match is irrelevant because they're simply not exciting. That's my analysis of the situation anyway.

[DE.]

I've been reading some of the messageboards at other clubs, out of interest and have realised that every club has the whinging fans. The most starking comparison was on a Spurs messageboard where the posters were having a go at Redknapp and Defoe. Now, whatever you might think of either of them, to try and twist it around and say they're really @#/? is incredible. They were saying that Defoe was just having a good run and isn't that great and Redknapp is terrible and has just been lucky. For a guy who has scored 20 goals this season and for a manager that last season saved them from the foot of the table and got them to finish 8th and has now had them fighting for a top 4 finish all season is just incredible. I am honestly at a loss for words.

It seems that fans' expectations are simply over the top and deluded. I think mellison and shillito have a point, and it's not just the fact that Sam is managing that has people disillusioned, but football in general. I think as has been mentioned by someone previously, we have lost our players people consider entertaining and were loved by the fans, so now there is a serious lack of interest in games. The only moderately exciting signings: Di Santo, Kalinic and Salgado have sparsely played this season and the fact that they haven't scored many goals and supposedly don't get enough chances angers people and makes them lose interest. The reason why people are angry at seeing Roberts or Andrews come on is because they simply don't want to see them, whether they do a good job that match is irrelevant because they're simply not exciting. That's my analysis of the situation anyway.

Aye, go to any messageboard and its the same dynamic. This board isn't unique when it comes to its divisions in support.

[Exiled in Toronto]

That's a wildly inaccurate analysis.

The TV money that clubs get is something that every single club gets and is more or less equal. The vast majority of this goes straight into the player's pockets and to a lesser extent transfer fees as we have to spend and offer Premier League wages to keep up with our peers.

The size of the catchment area, crowds etc however are a very variable factor throughout the league and have a huge impact on what we can spend.

We have clubs bordering us from all sides, we have to bring our ticket prices down to one of the lowest across all four divisions to get the punters in.

If we be generous and call our average home gate 25,000 with an average price per person of £20 (including walk on and S/T), we're talking £500,000 a game. If we call it 19 league games plus maybe 6 "other" games, cup etc then that's £12.5 million.

If we say the average Premier League club probably has an average gate of 40,000 with an average price per person of £35 then its £1.4 million a game and over 25 games in a season that'd be £35 million.

The exact numbers are just guesses but the proportional difference is something that cannot be argued with. And that's a huge difference, most of which can go straight back into offering better wages and shelling out more on transfers.

And if we look at the Championship and even beyond there's many clubs like Forest, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield United/Wednesday who if they get their act together on the pitch and get a good manager, there's massive scope for them to have sustained success in the Premier League as they have a big fanbase and can generate that sort of money from their gate receipts. We don't. There's also others like Bristol City who have a potentially massive catchment area and if they were to get promoted and kick on could have scope for stadium expansion etc. QPR have more money than us currently.

That's why people say we're punching above our weight and we really should be a Championship club when you look at our situation. And they're absolutely right but it's a testament to how good a club we are that we're doing so well given the circumstances.

Not what I was saying. Of course we are disadvantaged compared to the Villa's and above, as are all the teams around us. My point was that we are equally advantaged over just about every club in the championship. We've had 200 million plus in the last 10 years that they haven't. The chances of all the clubs you mention 'getting their act together' are negligible. The odd one might have the odd good year, but they are just too poor to go out and recruit the kind of squad we have, even after all the sell-offs. Wolves are as big as those clubs and the best they can do is be a yo-yo club.

I'd much rather be us than Bristol City

[yoda]

Will any of the people that want sam out please put forward an alternative that

a wants to come to Blackburn Rovers

b we can afford them

thank you

if not then STFU

[Eddie]

This may surprise you, but I doubt many on here personally know any active managers, so it is a bit difficult to know whether or not they are interested and the same goes for whether or not we could afford them.

I don't like this as a form of criticism, the same thing gets said when people are critical of potential transfers. The fact is that it isn't the supporters jobs to find potential staff and player additions. Once in a while someone will have inside knowledge and many may well have a good eye for talent and know a bit about various leagues, but without having access to the club it is impossible to really say anything worthwhile. This limitation shouldn't prevent people from being critical when they see the job isn't being done properly.

Not what I was saying. Of course we are disadvantaged compared to the Villa's and above, as are all the teams around us. My point was that we are equally advantaged over just about every club in the championship. We've had 200 million plus in the last 10 years that they haven't. The chances of all the clubs you mention 'getting their act together' are negligible. The odd one might have the odd good year, but they are just too poor to go out and recruit the kind of squad we have, even after all the sell-offs. Wolves are as big as those clubs and the best they can do is be a yo-yo club.

I'd much rather be us than Bristol City

You're quite right. This "punching above our weight" argument is based on every club starting from an equal position and ignores a great deal of relevant information.

[RovertheHill]

The punching above our weight argument is, for me, pretty irrelevant. I don't recall anyone excusing Paul Ince because "we are a championship club in the premier league". It's been the case pretty much since Jack died, or if not, pretty soon after. The question for me, and the only relevant question, is Sam doing as well as he can with the resources at his disposal? And the answer is that he's doing better than Ince, but not as well as Hughes. In the same way that many of the people who criticise him unconditionally are blinkered, so are those who defend him unconditionally. Are you really saying he couldn't have made a better job of a significant number of matches this year? And do you think he will learn from that? I don't think so - the way we lined up against Hull, even with 10 men, seemed to demonstrate that to me he is set in his ways. I don't want him sacked - I just think he could do much better with the resources he has at his disposal

[tony gale's mic]

Not what I was saying. Of course we are disadvantaged compared to the Villa's and above, as are all the teams around us. My point was that we are equally advantaged over just about every club in the championship. We've had 200 million plus in the last 10 years that they haven't. The chances of all the clubs you mention 'getting their act together' are negligible. The odd one might have the odd good year, but they are just too poor to go out and recruit the kind of squad we have, even after all the sell-offs. Wolves are as big as those clubs and the best they can do is be a yo-yo club.

I'd much rather be us than Bristol City

Again, that's still missing the point a bit.

That £200 million or whatever has pretty much all gone into paying Premiership wages for our players and, to a lesser extent, shelling out on transfer fees. If we had any surplus from that remaining then we'd be spending it now, it has all gone on balancing the books.

And obviously they are too poor now. But if they get promoted to the Premier League (which Newcastle and Forest may well be next season and Leeds will probably get in the next five years), debts notwithstanding they will automatically become better off financially than us as they'll be getting the Premier League money we'll be getting plus much more money every week in gate receipts which as I demonstrated before makes a difference of £15-20 million per season even when one compares us with an average-sized Premier League club. The fact we receieved Premier League money for the 10 years previously would be irrelevant as it will all have been spent. And most of the clubs I named are clearly significantly bigger clubs with much bigger fanbases than Wolves.

I'd definitely much rather be us than any of these clubs, as we're in the Premier League now, we're playing some of the best sides in Europe etc. But theres no doubt we're overachieving whilst the others are underachieving.

[tony gale's mic]

The punching above our weight argument is, for me, pretty irrelevant. I don't recall anyone excusing Paul Ince because "we are a championship club in the premier league". It's been the case pretty much since Jack died, or if not, pretty soon after. The question for me, and the only relevant question, is Sam doing as well as he can with the resources at his disposal? And the answer is that he's doing better than Ince, but not as well as Hughes. In the same way that many of the people who criticise him unconditionally are blinkered, so are those who defend him unconditionally. Are you really saying he couldn't have made a better job of a significant number of matches this year? And do you think he will learn from that? I don't think so - the way we lined up against Hull, even with 10 men, seemed to demonstrate that to me he is set in his ways. I don't want him sacked - I just think he could do much better with the resources he has at his disposal

I think Sam definitely has much room for improvement in his tactics, but I think in the other areas of his management he's doing very well and overall he's doing a pretty decent job although nothing brilliant.

However there are three key differences when comparing the reigns of Hughes and Sam:

1) Hughes arguably inherited a better side than Sam did. Friedel and Tugay were players who could win games on their own, when Sam came in the only star player he inherited was Santa Cruz who spent the whole time injured or sulking. Benni was already in decline. Granted Hughes then made several brilliant signings after this though.

2) Hughes didnt have to work with a negative transfer budget - if anything it was slightly positive in terms of ingoings/outgoings.

3) If you look at when Hughes was in charge, Villa only starting getting good towards the end of his reign, City weren't even in the division let alone flush with cash and Spurs were nearer the bottom than the top. Those are now three sides we can't even compete with over the course of a season and will mean the highest we can ever hope to achieve in a season is now 8th when you add them to the big 4. Hughes took us to 6th and 7th but never had those teams to deal with.

Sam could still definitely do better but he's currently stabilising us which is what we really need more than anything.

[thenodrog]

The punching above our weight argument is, for me, pretty irrelevant. I don't recall anyone excusing Paul Ince because "we are a championship club in the premier league". It's been the case pretty much since Jack died, or if not, pretty soon after. The question for me, and the only relevant question, is Sam doing as well as he can with the resources at his disposal? And the answer is that he's doing better than Ince, but not as well as Hughes. In the same way that many of the people who criticise him unconditionally are blinkered, so are those who defend him unconditionally. Are you really saying he couldn't have made a better job of a significant number of matches this year? And do you think he will learn from that? I don't think so - the way we lined up against Hull, even with 10 men, seemed to demonstrate that to me he is set in his ways. I don't want him sacked - I just think he could do much better with the resources he has at his disposal

I defend him when it is right to do so but certainly not unconditionally. What I cannot abide are babyhouse and churlish comments continually eroding the fabric of the club simply to suit an infantile and malicious agenda. After championing Allardyce when that last goon was in charge (btw Carlisle 5 MKD 0 :!: )I've said often that we are too brittle and not the dogs of war that I'd expected. Mark Hughes had a directive from the top to clean up our act which coincided with the beginning of our downward curve so I wonder if SA is being hampered with that instruction too? If so it might go some way towards explaining our away record.

imo All we need to improve dramatically is one dominant midfield presence who can STAY FIT bring players in around him and keep the shape of the team whilst dominating the opposition at the same time ....... Not much to ask is it given that there are only about 3 with that ability in the entire Prem! Problem is if we could find that player he'd last as long as the next transfer window.

And there's the nub of the issue. Much of the current paucity of talent is nothing to do with SA but rather because even for a known 'selling club' the board has excelled itself over the past 18 months in getting rid of anyone with a decent saleable value. If they sold the family silver because they saw the early signs of the footballing recession then fair play and well done too but the fact is that Allardyce has to try and pick up the pieces of our fire sale. No one can argue that if we could bring back Freidel, Bentley, RSC, Warnock and Tugay they'd all be the first names of the team sheet for the next match! Rightly or wrongly and because we do need to balance the books but much of our problems should be levelled at the board not the manager!

My only gripe is why so many of our 5th columnists are willing to recognise that fact but prefer to pursue a vitriolic, irrational and damaging agenda totally opposed to the best interests of the club.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

What I cannot abide are babyhouse and churlish comments continually eroding the fabric of the club simply to suit an infantile and malicious agenda.

[RIML]

Will any of the people that want sam out please put forward an alternative that

a wants to come to Blackburn Rovers

b we can afford them

thank you

if not then STFU

I honestly fear Sam leaving the club. The rumours of him retiring at the end of the season frighten me. I honestly couldn't name a replacement who can grind out the results in the way Sam does. Football is a results business, we shouldn't care how we get them, not even against 10 men Hull.

[S15]

I'll second that, I want to see if he can continue to build and achieve Bolton esque success here.

The possible replacements frighten the @#/? out of me, just look at Coyle down the road, hardly setting the world alight is he, and most around here seemed to think he was a 'special one.'

[Gav]

I'll second that, I want to see if he can continue to build and achieve Bolton esque success here.

The possible replacements frighten the @#/? out of me, just look at Coyle down the road, hardly setting the world alight is he, and most around here seemed to think he was a 'special one.'

Coyle will need 12 months at least to get things right, not 4 weeks

Can I just add here that despite my anti Allardyce stance, I'm not sure anyone else could be achieving any better than he is right now. But what I do believe is that someone could be achieving a similar league position, whilst playing decent football both home and away and wouldn’t constantly blame everyone but himself for results.

I’m not getting into who that would be, because I’ve not given it much thought.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Same around me Booth, and all my Rovers supporting mates, lads at work, chap in the chippy etc etc.

Ive never know the like of it to be honest.

Gav, just what the hell do 'your Rovers supporting mates,lads at work,chap in the chippy,Squirrel in the fookin tree' types expect from this Rovers side?,we have NO creative,flair players and to be honest are nothing more than a Mid-table mediocre side.

Could a manager achieve more than Allardyce given the tools/financial restraints he has to work with?....I say not a chance pal,not a chance!

This constant in-fighting regarding the manager is not helping anyone.There's been a strange atmosphere with the Ewood crowd all season and I've no doubt the Allardyce split has been the catalyst.

[philipl]

If Sam needs to retire, he needs to retire. There are high quality managers out there whom I am sure would jump at the chance to manage Rovers judging by some of the names that came forwards on the last two occasions- it just needs the Board to be more open-minded and not follow a fixed narrow candidate spec.

However, I sincerely hope we beat Bolton then finish as high up the table as possible whilst playing attractive vibrant football. The players are capable of doing both and Sam is capable of coaching the players to produce both results and good football- I agree with roverthehill and tony gale's mic. If the remaining games produce the winning spectacles (or heroic failures provided one is not in dingleland) then all thoughts of non-renewal of season tickets and, hopefully, of Sam retiring will evaporate.

[John]

I honestly fear Sam leaving the club. The rumours of him retiring at the end of the season frighten me. I honestly couldn't name a replacement who can grind out the results in the way Sam does. Football is a results business, we shouldn't care how we get them, not even against 10 men Hull.

He said after his operation he needs/wants time to build things here. Said its tougher than ever, with low resources, but get the impression he thinks he can make us a top 8 club.

Might be fantasy but he has a proven track record of doing it at Bolton.

[47er]

There are high quality managers out there whom I am sure would jump at the chance to manage Rovers judging by some of the names that came forwards on the last two occasions- it just needs the Board to be more open-minded and not follow a fixed narrow candidate spec.

On one of the last occasions they chose Ince! Definitely didn't follow a fixed narrow candidate spec then and thats what we fear. One more disaster and we are finished, the anti-Sam crowd should reflect on that.

[47er]

edited