RIP John Steven Taylor

[ABBEY]

I remember bolton fans launching a concrete bin in the rovers fans leaving the reebock a few years ago.

[Fife Rover]

I'm not saying I'd throw a bin around. But going to the away games, a lot of them are idiots, and in their drunken stupor (some of them are absolutely smashed) they do ridiculous things. It's wrong, they deserve to be punished, but I don't think they intended for anyone to get hurt - just their lack of a brain means they see it as acceptable behaviour. I never said it's "just fun", but I don't think there is sufficient evidence yet to suggest there was the intention to kill someone. I was told that the lads were (stupidly) throwing it amongst themselves, but who knows.

Fair enogh Sambo. What you have just said there shows that you obviously think like myself and all the others on here that they are behaving very stupidly whilst under the influence of alcohol. But the question still remains as to how have we as a society arrived at this situation where large groups of people behave in these criminally irresponsible ways in such large numbers and so often. Violence fueled by drink and/or drugs has become the "norm" in virtually every town and city centre every weekend and is costing the earth in policing and NH time and facilities. And the worst aspect of it all is that because it has become the "norm" it is apparently accepted now as virtually inevitable and something that "just is". I cannot and never will accept that thinking. It is not inevitable simply because I and all people of my age and younger as well can easily remember when these things did NOT happen; even at weekends!!

I fully accept that there have always been instances of people being drunk and disorderly, but at the same time it was NEVER the norm. It was always a SMALL minority and the police would usually arrest the more obstropulous ones, while sending the more co-operative ones home to sleep it off. All done very peaceably. Whilst large scale fighting in pubs, clubs or in the streets was indeed a very rare occurence and when it occasionally did happen it was sure to make the front pages of the newspapers. And the reason why it did not happen very much was that the vast majority of the population was single mindedly horrified and outraged by any such behaviour and everyone knew it. They would quickly find themselves virtual outcasts in the community at large if they made a habit of loutish behaviour. That is what has changed over the last 50 years, and the politicians and educationalists have a lot to answer for their increasingly "head in the sand " approach to facing up to an increasing problem.

[sambo]

Fair enogh Sambo. What you have just said there shows that you obviously think like myself and all the others on here that they are behaving very stupidly whilst under the influence of alcohol. But the question still remains as to how have we as a society arrived at this situation where large groups of people behave in these criminally irresponsible ways in such large numbers and so often. Violence fueled by drink and/or drugs has become the "norm" in virtually every town and city centre every weekend and is costing the earth in policing and NH time and facilities. And the worst aspect of it all is that because it has become the "norm" it is apparently accepted now as virtually inevitable and something that "just is". I cannot and never will accept that thinking. It is not inevitable simply because I and all people of my age and younger as well can easily remember when these things did NOT happen; even at weekends!!

I fully accept that there have always been instances of people being drunk and disorderly, but at the same time it was NEVER the norm. It was always a SMALL minority and the police would usually arrest the more obstropulous ones, while sending the more co-operative ones home to sleep it off. All done very peaceably. Whilst large scale fighting in pubs, clubs or in the streets was indeed a very rare occurence and when it occasionally did happen it was sure to make the front pages of the newspapers. And the reason why it did not happen very much was that the vast majority of the population was single mindedly horrified and outraged by any such behaviour and everyone knew it. They would quickly find themselves virtual outcasts in the community at large if they made a habit of loutish behaviour. That is what has changed over the last 50 years, and the politicians and educationalists have a lot to answer for their increasingly "head in the sand " approach to facing up to an increasing problem.

I agree, although being 17 I can't say I know that much of an issue to discuss possible solutions. Although going through towns at night is often intimidating, which shouldn't be the case.

On a footballing note, a lot of the good work done since the Taylor Report seems to be being undone. Recently, there have been more instances of football disorder. United fans at Barnsley/Birmingham, Rovers fans today / racist chanting, Burnley fans kicking off at Bolton.. the hooligan element is creeping back into football. Can't say I'm sure why.

I'm not against people having a drink, or even a bit drunk. It's when it starts to affect them in a negative manner that it is unacceptable. I'm sure people aren't naive enough to think I've never drank, but when I do I do so responsibly. Certain sections of society seem incapable of doing so.

[Blue blood]

Firstly I hope the guy pulls through.

As for the behaviour of our away fans, I have to say it seems two very different extremes. On one hand there was a diverse demographic at the game. There was a group of old ladies, as well as a fair few other representatives from the older generation, I saw several families as well as a number of father-son combinations at the ground. Having said that, you do seem to get a lot of lads who seem to be out on the lash.

The first problem is standing. I was sat row 23 in the corner. From where we were the view was excellent, and no one in the rows om front of us persistantly stood. However, there were two large contingents standing. The first right at the front, and the second towards the back. Now I don't have a huge problem with people standing, providing you're not blocking others view, but doing it both front and back must have made it extremely difficult for those fans with children, who can't stand, to see the game. In fact there was one family who quite clearly must have struggled all afternoon and were hardly right towards the back. It seems that unless you hit the jackpot in terms of seating, anyone who doesn't wish to stand will be in for a long afternoon.

Interesting to see the stewards so active in getting people to sit down. I assume it had something to do with the incident at half time (which I had no idea of during the game). Incidentally with such a presence of stewards I wonder how such an action like having a bin chucked about was able to happen.

Another interesting feature I noticed - at times the away fans behaviour was more interesting than the game - was a group of lads who rather than watching the game, diverted their attention to bellowing and chanting obsenities at the policeman recording the fans on the video camera. Now I'm not wild about being recorded, but to spend the entire game hurling obsenities at the police or opposition fans seems like a waste of £25 to me. This is an unwelcome element at away games, I'm all for some banter, but fans trying to cause aggro/look hard we could do without.

[Fife Rover]

In your desperation to be outraged you have completely misread/misinterpreted what Sambo said.

Anyway, good to hear the lad is still with us, fingers crossed he pulls through and certain members of our travelling support learn their lesson without the need for tragedy.

So how do you interpret his words that say "but I dont think they intended anyone to get hurt"? How can anyone start throwing a bin around in a densely packed concourse and not expect someone to get hurt. It is absolutely inevitable that someone is VERY likely to be hurt or seriously injured if they do that. Which is exactly what did happen. How could anyone other than a complete idiot expect any other outcome?

Edited February 6, 2010 by Fife Rover

[PAFELL]

Fair enogh Sambo. What you have just said there shows that you obviously think like myself and all the others on here that they are behaving very stupidly whilst under the influence of alcohol. But the question still remains as to how have we as a society arrived at this situation where large groups of people behave in these criminally irresponsible ways in such large numbers and so often. Violence fueled by drink and/or drugs has become the "norm" in virtually every town and city centre every weekend and is costing the earth in policing and NH time and facilities. And the worst aspect of it all is that because it has become the "norm" it is apparently accepted now as virtually inevitable and something that "just is". I cannot and never will accept that thinking. It is not inevitable simply because I and all people of my age and younger as well can easily remember when these things did NOT happen; even at weekends!!

I fully accept that there have always been instances of people being drunk and disorderly, but at the same time it was NEVER the norm. It was always a SMALL minority and the police would usually arrest the more obstropulous ones, while sending the more co-operative ones home to sleep it off. All done very peaceably. Whilst large scale fighting in pubs, clubs or in the streets was indeed a very rare occurence and when it occasionally did happen it was sure to make the front pages of the newspapers. And the reason why it did not happen very much was that the vast majority of the population was single mindedly horrified and outraged by any such behaviour and everyone knew it. They would quickly find themselves virtual outcasts in the community at large if they made a habit of loutish behaviour. That is what has changed over the last 50 years, and the politicians and educationalists have a lot to answer for their increasingly "head in the sand " approach to facing up to an increasing problem.

A firm I sometimes do work for when they are short, are employed by the police to board up, seal off areas, such as shops etc, where a crime / vandilisum has happened during the night. A typical 'duty'night would be 12 midnight to 5am.

The trouble is often caused by drunken people when the pubs close. We have noticed for awhile that things changed for the worse when they allowed drinking until 2am. When pubs closed at 11 - 11-30pm there wasn't as much trouble. During that time pubs closed at about 2pm until opening up at about 5pm - that did allow the drunks to go home sober, sleep off the afternoon drinking. What is happening in some towns now is that certain pubs that are open till 2am have an entry time cut off. For example a landlord will say that unless you are in this pub by midnight, you won't get in. But it means that when other pubs are closing say at 11-30 and try to get into a later openning venue, get refused, then trouble erupts, either there or other places in the town. But basically when the drinking times changed so did society and the culture, with it.

[Paul]

I agree with much of what you have said there Fife, the behaviour of large sections of our society who find binge drinking acceptable is truely appalling. Myself I find it impossible to understand why people need to drink while watching football, a pint before KO I can appreciate but not the levels that seems to go on.

One point which needs raising is the role of clubs in this. I have no idea what Rovers position is but I have to hope it's a damn sight more civilised than Stoke City. I went to the Britannia Stadium last year on the official coaches. As a 54 year old man with a disabled son in tow I'm clearly a major threat to stadium security. We were, along with thousands of other fans treated as scum, and I will not be using official coaches again other than for perhaps a semi-final or final at Wembley. The official coaches arrived around 90 minutes to two hours prior to kick off and parked up perhaps 30 yards from the stadium entrance. Once off the coaches we were not allowed back on and the drivers had disappeared. We were also prevented from leaving the coach park. After milling around outside for a while on a very hot day we decided to go in. The concourse was completely rammed with supporters drinking for England leaving us with nowhere to go but the stand to look at the pitch for an hour or so. The bars under the concourse were barred from floor to ceiling sending out a very clear message to all. The concourse was so badly crowded - like the majority of English concourses it's far too small to hold the number of people in the stand - had there been any sort of incident it would have been impossible to evacuate.

To me football fans are still treated like sh!t at the majority of grounds. If people are treated in thsi way it's hardly surprising when a small element behave in a manner most of us find unacceptable. Treat fans like scum and some will react as scum. It's obvious to me Stoke City treat away support in an appalling fashion, this is a modern stadium with zero facilities for supporters and a policing and stewarding attitude which left me in no doubt about how I was viewed. Needless to say we didn't return this year.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Paul

[Ben-2000]

I love to sing at away games, love to stand at the back and am very passionate but never cross the line.

...and that's what it's all about Sambo, I am exactly the same. I just hope the day doesn't come where people like you and me are not classed in the same way as the idiots that do go too far.

[PAFELL]

I agree, although being 17 I can't say I know that much of an issue to discuss possible solutions. Although going through towns at night is often intimidating, which shouldn't be the case.

On a footballing note, a lot of the good work done since the Taylor Report seems to be being undone. Recently, there have been more instances of football disorder. United fans at Barnsley/Birmingham, Rovers fans today / racist chanting, Burnley fans kicking off at Bolton.. the hooligan element is creeping back into football. Can't say I'm sure why.

I'm not against people having a drink, or even a bit drunk. It's when it starts to affect them in a negative manner that it is unacceptable. I'm sure people aren't naive enough to think I've never drank, but when I do I do so responsibly. Certain sections of society seem incapable of doing so.

I think history shows that when people are losing their jobs etc because of a recession they take out their fustration and anger out somehow. Football to them often gives them that place to do it. Is it a coincidence that it is creeping back again - just after a recession?

Edited February 6, 2010 by PAFELL

[PAFELL]

Whatever happened this was an accident waiting to happen. I'll make no comment on this incident as the details have not been confirmed BUT with 1300 BRFC fans there that bin could have hit any one of them.

I haven't been to an away match for a few seasons now and have said so more than once on here. Only matches like the semi-final at OT (I paid £55 btw to sit away from the dregs and it was worth every bloody penny) and european trips could attract me nowadays. Awaydays are a thoroughly unpleasant experience regardless of what happens on the pitch. Booze sodden, aggressive, raucous and boorish load of numpty's spoil the experience. I gave over taking my kids long before I called it a day myself, and I have frequently curled up in embarrassment for poor parents who had taken young children as a treat and ended up sat in the middle of the slum dwellers. The unfortunate souls are constantly exposed to the foulest language imaginable with the perpetrators showing no remorse or embarrassment whatsoever and certainly no restraint in respect of the children. On top of that buying a seat and having to stand through the match is inexcusable. Awaydays are not a place for children, the elderly or decent folk in general. Even more of a no no is to make the journey by coach. I'd rather sit at home listening to the radio commentary whilst sticking pins in my eyes for 90 minutes.

I decided not to make travelling to away matches a habit ever again until clubs make two areas available. One behind the goals for the yobs and one down the side preferably for more normal and decent people who can use words of two syllables or more.

imo There seems no half way house between jostling with scum and going corporate and there should be. We could easily start the ball rolling with a section of the JW Darwen End being given over as a pilot scheme to allow 1st class facilities for away fans from SOME BUT NOT ALL clubs. It might even prove a winner.

I was at Ewood park for the sunderland game over christmas. There were at that game sunderland supporters sat in the JW. My wife and I always sit in the JW when we go to games. As we can not get to many games we prefer to spend the extra ticket price to sit in the JW. During that game, those sunderland supporters mocked / abused the Rovers supporters everytime sunderland scored. Thenodrog, it is not the area where a seat is, but the person that sits on that seat.

Going to Fulham away is not an unpleasent ground to go to, I would say it was a good day out (apart from the result)

I went to WHU last week, no problems with WHU supporters / stewards. The only problem I had was when a Rovers supporter sat next to me was singing '442 my lord 442'. This one turned round to me when he noticed I wasn't singing along, and said I was a not a true supporter because I didn't sing the song.

Going to wigan via coach from ewood park was not unpleasent. But half time on the concourse was a nightmare and a disgrace. People were squashed just trying to get out of the gents. The car park well that was a disgrace.

Some grounds it can be pleasent to take a child / women other places it cannot be.

[47er]

Another interesting feature I noticed - at times the away fans behaviour was more interesting than the game - was a group of lads who rather than watching the game, diverted their attention to bellowing and chanting obsenities at the policeman recording the fans on the video camera. Now I'm not wild about being recorded, but to spend the entire game hurling obsenities at the police or opposition fans seems like a waste of £25 to me. This is an unwelcome element at away games, I'm all for some banter, but fans trying to cause aggro/look hard we could do without.

I wrote along these lines after the Everton away game very early in the season. There are "fans' supporting Rovers I wouldn't want my family near. The drunkenness and the obscenities hurled at decent Everton supporting families really sickened me. At least in the bad old seventies you never expected to be injured by one of your own. Hope the poor man recovers and the Club has a good hard look at its away following who are dragging our name into the mud.

[Bwfcdanny]

I remember bolton fans launching a concrete bin in the rovers fans leaving the reebock a few years ago.

Aye well there's idiots following every club, there's a number of Bolton fans who just go the match to cause trouble. Oddly enough when we went to Stoke last season Bolton fans started fighting between themselves in the concourse at half team. Sooner the trouble makers get banned the better.

As for the poor fella in hospital, my thought's go out to his family and i wish him a speedy recovery. I hope he's back at Ewood soon

[PAFELL]

I wrote along these lines after the Everton away game very early in the season. There are "fans' supporting Rovers I wouldn't want my family near. The drunkenness and the obscenities hurled at decent Everton supporting families really sickened me. At least in the bad old seventies you never expected to be injured by one of your own. Hope the poor man recovers and the Club has a good hard look at its away following who are dragging our name into the mud.

Somebody was arrested for the incident at stoke. If the police have the right person then I hope he receives a heavy sentence and banned from football for life.

[Fife Rover]

I agree, although being 17 I can't say I know that much of an issue to discuss possible solutions. Although going through towns at night is often intimidating, which shouldn't be the case.

On a footballing note, a lot of the good work done since the Taylor Report seems to be being undone. Recently, there have been more instances of football disorder. United fans at Barnsley/Birmingham, Rovers fans today / racist chanting, Burnley fans kicking off at Bolton.. the hooligan element is creeping back into football. Can't say I'm sure why.

I'm not against people having a drink, or even a bit drunk. It's when it starts to affect them in a negative manner that it is unacceptable. I'm sure people aren't naive enough to think I've never drank, but when I do I do so responsibly. Certain sections of society seem incapable of doing so.

OK Sambo I can now see that you are seeing things in the right way. I am sorry if I appeared to have misjudged you from your original post; it was just that I got the wrong impression from your words "I don't think they intended to hurt anyone". That to me seemed as though (while not condoning their actions) you were suggesting that as an excuse for their actions. My contention is that there cannot ever be ANY excuse for the kind of actions these people took. You would have to be a complete imbecile to not realise that throwing a bin around in a dense crowd could ever do anything else but cause injury or worse. I do now see that you wer NOT intending that as an excuse for their behavior.

[47er]

Sorry Theno but that comment has to go down as one of your low-lights on this board.

You've lost me there. he's telling the truth, it was an accident waiting to happen. Anyone following Rovers in the last 2 or 3 years will say the same.

[sambo]

So how do you interpret his words that say "but I dont think they intended anyone to get hurt"? How can anyone start throwing a bin around in a densely packed concourse and not expect someone to get hurt. It is absolutely inevitable that someone is VERY likely to be hurt or seriously injured if they do that. Which is exactly what did happen. How could anyone other than a complete idiot expect any other outcome?

They are idiots. Like I said, they don't think of the consequences.

[Ste B]

I'm copying Lees post from the official site, as I can't put this any better myself. All I will say at this time is that the thoughts of everybody is with the affected fan and his family and we all hope he pulls through.

"

Whilst it is certainly disturbing what has happened today at the ground. Can I ask supporters that instead of posting what they saw on here that if they have any important information that may help that they call the Staffordshire Police on 01785 236211.

It is very easy for discussions to get taken out of context or be taken as fact (like the early reports on here that the chap was dead), so it might be better if any supporter who was unfortunate to witness this terrible event contacts the appropriate authorities."

[saxo1man30]

Fair enogh Sambo. What you have just said there shows that you obviously think like myself and all the others on here that they are behaving very stupidly whilst under the influence of alcohol. But the question still remains as to how have we as a society arrived at this situation where large groups of people behave in these criminally irresponsible ways in such large numbers and so often. Violence fueled by drink and/or drugs has become the "norm" in virtually every town and city centre every weekend and is costing the earth in policing and NH time and facilities. And the worst aspect of it all is that because it has become the "norm" it is apparently accepted now as virtually inevitable and something that "just is". I cannot and never will accept that thinking. It is not inevitable simply because I and all people of my age and younger as well can easily remember when these things did NOT happen; even at weekends!!

I fully accept that there have always been instances of people being drunk and disorderly, but at the same time it was NEVER the norm. It was always a SMALL minority and the police would usually arrest the more obstropulous ones, while sending the more co-operative ones home to sleep it off. All done very peaceably. Whilst large scale fighting in pubs, clubs or in the streets was indeed a very rare occurence and when it occasionally did happen it was sure to make the front pages of the newspapers. And the reason why it did not happen very much was that the vast majority of the population was single mindedly horrified and outraged by any such behaviour and everyone knew it. They would quickly find themselves virtual outcasts in the community at large if they made a habit of loutish behaviour. That is what has changed over the last 50 years, and the politicians and educationalists have a lot to answer for their increasingly "head in the sand " approach to facing up to an increasing problem.

the `new` generation are ultra viloent, disorderly and `extreme` because they have been brought up by crap parents who just totally neglect parental responsability and guidance by plonking their kids in front of a tv screen or video game system to `get them out of the way` while opening up their latest bottle of alchohol, or let`s face it, lighting up their next joint(members of my own family are no better). what is on tv or in movies? what is in video games? what is the message given to them by modern music? violence is cool, guns and knives are cool, treating ladies like whores is cool, earning wealth by criminal means is cool, being part of a gang is cool, physically dangerous activities are cool, football violence is cool and my biggest issue, ARROGANCE is cool.

too many people become parents for the wrong reasons when quite frankly they aren`t fit to be and that`s why we have youth that feel any kind of behaviour is acceptable and the more controversial it is, the cooler it is. simple as that.

you think i`m wrong? then ask yourself this..

would any of today`s youths be walking around wearing `hoodies` to disguise their criminal behaviour if eminem never existed?

Edited February 6, 2010 by saxo1man30

[sambo]

I'm copying Lees post from the official site, as I can't put this any better myself. All I will say at this time is that the thoughts of everybody is with the affected fan and his family and we all hope he pulls through.

"

Whilst it is certainly disturbing what has happened today at the ground. Can I ask supporters that instead of posting what they saw on here that if they have any important information that may help that they call the Staffordshire Police on 01785 236211.

It is very easy for discussions to get taken out of context or be taken as fact (like the early reports on here that the chap was dead), so it might be better if any supporter who was unfortunate to witness this terrible event contacts the appropriate authorities."

I hope someone comes forward. When was the incident? Just after half time? Must have been horrible to witness - can't believe people are having to see this when they go to follow their team. Prayers are with the man and his family.

Fife Rover - It's okay, I can see why you may have misinterpreted my post - the issue is an incredibly sensitive one, and I can't blame people for their strong feelings. I'd have thought the same regarding the bin throwing, but it seems the people involved are too selfish to think of others. Someone with over 10 brain cells wouldn't think of throwing a bin around in such a packed area. I could barely put my hand in my pocket, never mind pick up a bin. It beggars belief.

[1864roverite]

Ultra violent ? Dont make me laugh, they are nothing short of brain dead idiots.

Hunting in packs not one can ever do a one on one. Watching some fo them today made me simply laugh. hardmen ? Dont think so, I have passed harder poo than them.

The saddest thing about leaving the ground today with 20 minutes to go was the sight of the ladies crying after what they had witnessed. I only hope tha the witnesses have the bottle to come forward to name and shame the people involved.

Its yet an utter tragedy borne out of nothing but sheer mindless violence.

[saxo1man30]

Ultra violent ? Dont make me laugh, they are nothing short of brain dead idiots.

Hunting in packs not one can ever do a one on one. Watching some fo them today made me simply laugh. hardmen ? Dont think so, I have passed harder poo than them.

The saddest thing about leaving the ground today with 20 minutes to go was the sight of the ladies crying after what they had witnessed. I only hope tha the witnesses have the bottle to come forward to name and shame the people involved.

Its yet an utter tragedy borne out of nothing but sheer mindless violence.

yeah? not ultra violent? try telling the family of sophie lancaster that then.

we are not measuring dicks here and saying who`s `ard and who isn`t. these scrotes hold power by weight of numbers. i guarentee mate even if you are 30 yr old, 18 stone and built like a brick craphouse, a gang of just 4 15 yr olds `tooled up`(as they like to say) would turn your lights out i`m afraid to say. don`t try to suggest otherwise because it just wouldn`t be true.

Edited February 6, 2010 by saxo1man30

[Darwen_Blue]

Unfortunately They have decided to turn the life support off.

[Fife Rover]

the `new` generation are ultra viloent, disorderly and `extreme` because they have been brought up by crap parents who just totally neglect parental responsability and guidance by plonking their kids in front of a tv screen or video game system to `get them out of the way` while opening up their latest bottle of alchohol, or let`s face it, lighting up their next joint(members of my own family are no better). what is on tv or in movies? what is in video games? what is the message given to them by modern music? violence is cool, guns and knives are cool, treating ladies like whores is cool, earning wealth by criminal means is cool, being part of a gang is cool, physically dangerous activities are cool, football violence is cool and my biggest issue, ARROGANCE is cool.

too many people become parents for the wrong reasons when quite frankly they aren`t fit to be and that`s why we have youth that feel any kind of behaviour is acceptable and the more controversial it is, the cooler it is. simple as that.

I don't disagree with any of that S1M30, but i would just like to add that whilst a very significantly large part of the population does indeed act as you describe above, I also believe that it is still a minority of the total population that does so. A siginificantly large minority, but thankfully still a minority. And therefore it is not yet too late to act to correct this situation; it simply needs the partof the population that is still in the majority to make a decision that it is high time to act to reverse the trend. This obviously would need the election of a Government that makes restoration of Law and Order a major priority and stands for election with this high on it's agenda. So far I am not aware that any party has declared sufficient political will to do so. Therefore it is up to the public at large that want true Law and Order back again to make their feeelings known and that they are willing to subjugate other poilitical aims like economics strategy etc in order to get some order and stability back into society. Then and only then can we return to normal political agenda's and pusue our differencees of opinion.

[saxo1man30]

I don't disagree with any of that S1M30, but i would just like to add that whilst a very significantly large part of the population does indeed act as you describe above, I also believe that it is still a minority of the total population that does so. A siginificantly large minority, but thankfully still a minority. And therefore it is not yet too late to act to correct this situation; it simply needs the partof the population that is still in the majority to make a decision that it is high time to act to reverse the trend. This obviously would need the election of a Government that makes restoration of Law and Order a major priority and stands for election with this high on it's agenda. So far I am not aware that any party has declared sufficient political will to do so. Therefore it is up to the public at large that want true Law and Order back again to make their feeelings known and that they are willing to subjugate other poilitical aims like economics strategy etc in order to get some order and stability back into society. Then and only then can we return to normal political agenda's and pusue our differencees of opinion.

spot on. let`s make a major effort to get our house(the united kingdom) in order as a priority over everything else. it`s not just moaning as i spend quite a bit of time abroad and the youth are nothing like they are here(and they still love their lives and enjoy themselves). it needs sorting and fast before it gets worse.

freedom of speech and uninhibited behaviour has gone too far.

Edited February 6, 2010 by saxo1man30

[bobsterbrfc]

Unfortunately They have decided to turn the life support off.

How do you know that? Be careful not to start whispers as happened today...