[Archived] Champions League

[LeChuck]

Messi needs to do something on the greatest stages to be in the same bracket as Maradona and Pele.

He undoubtedly has the ability to do it, but league games and quarter-finals aren't enough. He choked in last years Champions League final and hasn't yet had the opportunity to grace a World Cup with brilliance.

[Ozz]

Thats the first time I have seen Messi play that well against an English club. From my (ever worsening) memory he has been kept quiet in previous Barca-English Clubs in the Champions League. But he does drift in and out a bit, the second half he disappeared until the end and his fourth goal!

[Amo]

I think it's iffy when you start comparing sportsmen from completely different generations. Would Maradona have the same impact today that he did 25 years ago?

[speeeeeeedie]

Messi is special, there is no dobut about it. He ran a depleted Arsenal side ragged, and does the same to better equipped sides. He did not do much against Chelsea last year, and (old cliche here) apart from his goal did nothing against Man U in the final. Regardless of his dribbling ability, he is an absolutley lethal finisher.

I would put him behind Zidane and Maradona. Ronaldo (the now portly Brazilian one) would also be above him but for injuries. I'm not old enough to make judgements on Pele, Cryuff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Puskas, Garrincha and others.

[CrazyIvan]

I think it's iffy when you start comparing sportsmen from completely different generations. Would Maradona have the same impact today that he did 25 years ago?

The answer is who knows? It's all well and good thinking that some of the players from the 40's/50's/60's/70's and 80's could and would make the same impact now as they did in their era. The truth of the matter is that no-one will ever know. It's a fairly pointless debate as the game has moved on, the players skills have changed and the sports science has come on leaps and bounds. The best anyone can ever say is that the players who were fantastic in their era were fantastic in their era. You can compare them with players now or players in other era's but it'll always be like comparing an old photograph to a recent image, it's a matter of opinion and no-one can ever say what would have been.

I think Messi has the makings of the best player of this current generation. Given two seasons or more like the one he's currently having then he'll be a great. Shearer scored 30+ goals three seasons in a row at the height of his career (with us) which was an incredible achievement and he has to be considered one of the greatest strikers of the modern era. His consistency afterwards was similarly remarkable and that marks him out as a special player.

[nicko]

Messi needs to do something on the greatest stages to be in the same bracket as Maradona and Pele.

He undoubtedly has the ability to do it, but league games and quarter-finals aren't enough. He choked in last years Champions League final and hasn't yet had the opportunity to grace a World Cup with brilliance.

Was that before or after he scored the second goal?

[koi]

Seriously? There's a lot of seriously good players to consider; Pele, Garrincha (who many in Brazil rate more than Pele), Maradonna, Best, Charlton, Moore, Cruyff, Zico, Zidane, Socrates, Eusabio, Ronaldo (Brazil), Garner, Beckenbauer, Finney, Matthews, Bergkamp, Cantona, Puskas, Tuguy etc etc. He's seriously good, probably the best today but a long way to go yet.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

Good job slipping Tugay in there.

[T4E]

Messi needs to do something on the greatest stages to be in the same bracket as Maradona and Pele.

Agreed - he needs to perform this Summer. Pele did it at the World Cup but for me his legacy is hurt by his never moving to Europe. Maradona is the only one of the three that can claim to have done it all - and Zidane should be allowed in to that company for the same reason.

Thats the first time I have seen Messi play that well against an English club. From my (ever worsening) memory he has been kept quiet in previous Barca-English Clubs in the Champions League. But he does drift in and out a bit, the second half he disappeared until the end and his fourth goal!

Messi did well in the final last year and scored an excellent goal. He wasn't so great in the semi-final against Chelsea - but if you look at Iniesta's late winner, the only reason he had so much space to score that goal was because Chelsea had three men surrounding Messi.

I think it's iffy when you start comparing sportsmen from completely different generations. Would Maradona have the same impact today that he did 25 years ago?

You have to comnpare like for like - Maradona's impact then vs Messi's impact now. Messi has a way to go before he can be considered to have achieved as much, but he's well on his way at 22.

[nicko]

Surely the best way to describe it is that Messi is the most exciting matchwinner for 20-odd years...or since Maradona was in his prime.

[Eddie]

I disagree...at least for the moment. 3 months of form can't put form can't put you into that category. Let's see how he does in the rest of this champions league (when he will face better teams, at least certainly better defenders) and in the world cup. Then after that see if he carries it on into next season. I'll stand by the fact that Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Henry, Ronaldo (both), etc. (and I think I could probably list about 10-20 more) have gone through patches like this over the past couple of decades.

[philipl]

Inter v Barca or Mourinho v Guardiola is going to be titanic and I wouldn't bet against the Special One prevailing despite having the weaker squad.

[T4E]

Thats Inter f**ked then.

[sleepyjack]

3 months of form

38 goals last season and 39 this.

17 goals in his last 21 Champions League appearances including top scorer in last year's competition.

2nd, 2nd and 1st in the last 3 years of FIFA World Player of the Year, and World Young Player of the Year the year before that.

Decent form, aye, but for more than three months. Perhaps reserve your judgment for French players nobody gives le toss about?

[Balwer]

38 goals last season and 39 this. 17 goals in his last 21 Champions League appearances. Were they all since January?

Not bad when he doesn't play as a striker either.

[Blue n White Rover]

Not bad when he doesn't play as a striker either.

He play as a right-sided attacker, part of a 3 man attack. I wouldn't say he's a right sided midfielder.

[Balwer]

He play as a right-sided attacker, part of a 3 man attack. I wouldn't say he's a right sided midfielder.

He often drops in to the central role behind the striker too though, like in the first leg against Arsenal.

Let's face it, he's never really hanging there for the tap in, and when crosses come in, last year's final aside, at 5'6" he's rarely waiting for the cross. He has to work for almost all of his goals, which can't be said for out and out strikers and in my opinion increases the value of the goals he does score.

[jim mk2]

Great player though Pele undoubtedly was, he never played in Europe,

To suggest that Pele cannot be seen as the greatest because he did not play in Europe is utter nonsense. Europe attracts the world's best players at present because of the ludicrous wages paid here and the appalling Champions League charade but that has not always been the case and certainly was not true in Pele's playing days when the best players in the world (Latin American players - nothing changes in that respect) all played in their home countries. Brazil certainly showed their mettle on international tours and World Cups when they routinely outclassed their European rivals. Maradona cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Pele either because of his conduct on and off the pitch - Pele, like the rest of the football world, was appalled by Maradona's cheating against England in 1986.

[Eddie]

Thats Inter f**ked then.

38 goals last season and 39 this.

17 goals in his last 21 Champions League appearances including top scorer in last year's competition.

2nd, 2nd and 1st in the last 3 years of FIFA World Player of the Year, and World Young Player of the Year the year before that.

Decent form, aye, but for more than three months. Perhaps reserve your judgment for French players nobody gives le toss about?

Quite frankly World Player of the Year and all of those awards mean just about f-all. They're awarded to players playing at the clubs FIFA and UEFA like. If you can't win the award playing for a non-champions league team and outside of 3 continents then it makes it all pointless really.

As for the goalscoring, you have to look at that in context. The fact is that a ridiculous number of goals are consistently scored by the big players in Spain and this leads to highly inflated statistics. If you want to look at last season:

One player on Messi's team outscored him (Eto'o)

One player on Messi's team also scored more than 20 goals in all competitions

Real Madrid had two players who did the same

He was one of four players in Spain to score over 30 goals in all competitions

Fact is we can all twist statistics to prove just about whatever you want, but you can't sit there and tell me that Messi was as dominant last season as he is at the moment. You also can't tell me that he was as dominant earlier in the season, if that were the case he would have scored about 90 goals by now.

You mean like Zidane or Henry? Or perhaps players who developed in France like Ronaldinho or Drogba?

[philipl]

I can only repeat- the best club sides were all South American in those days.

It is so self-evident that Pele is the greatest that I have been amazed to see anyone seriously putting up a counter case.

I suggest you watch this:

Just look at some of the "tackling" which was routine in those days. Then look at some of those goals scored at the highest conceivable levels (South American club cup and Argentina v Brazil).

20 goals scored either for Brazil over 12 years or in the World Club Championship-

Pele is without compare- ask Ronnie Clayton who played against him.

[Iceman]

Messi is the best player at present. You cannot compare, him to Pele, Garrincha, Maradonna etc, different era's. Pele played in a team, that was simply outstanding and were not just reliant on Pele. The same with Zidane, who was part of a very good French team, and again, not reliant on him. Messi, however is part of an Argentinian team, that im not convinced about. He will carry the team, and they will struggle. Its not about Pele or Maradonna, their careers are done, its Messi's time to shine.

[Balwer]

Quite frankly World Player of the Year and all of those awards mean just about f-all. They're awarded to players playing at the clubs FIFA and UEFA like. If you can't win the award playing for a non-champions league team and outside of 3 continents then it makes it all pointless really.

As for the goalscoring, you have to look at that in context. The fact is that a ridiculous number of goals are consistently scored by the big players in Spain and this leads to highly inflated statistics. If you want to look at last season:

One player on Messi's team outscored him (Eto'o)

One player on Messi's team also scored more than 20 goals in all competitions

Real Madrid had two players who did the same

He was one of four players in Spain to score over 30 goals in all competitions

Fact is we can all twist statistics to prove just about whatever you want, but you can't sit there and tell me that Messi was as dominant last season as he is at the moment. You also can't tell me that he was as dominant earlier in the season, if that were the case he would have scored about 90 goals by now.

You mean like Zidane or Henry? Or perhaps players who developed in France like Ronaldinho or Drogba?

You said he'd had three months of form. If you want to discredit every single award he's received or the goals he's scored over the past three seasons then that's fine. But don't change the argument to suit your point. Just because he's even more dominant now doesn't mean he wasn't 'in form' in the past.

[MarkBRFC71]

I disagree...at least for the moment. 3 months of form can't put form can't put you into that category. Let's see how he does in the rest of this champions league (when he will face better teams, at least certainly better defenders) and in the world cup. Then after that see if he carries it on into next season. I'll stand by the fact that Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Henry, Ronaldo (both), etc. (and I think I could probably list about 10-20 more) have gone through patches like this over the past couple of decades.

3 MONTHS of form?!? You're not being serious there right? You appear to know a bit about French football, but it's obvious from that statement that you know little about World football and absolutely zero about La Liga. Check his record - you really, really need to before making wild statements like that. It's a 'patch' that's lasted all of his professional career so far - and he's only 22.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi

[MarkBRFC71]

To suggest that Pele cannot be seen as the greatest because he did not play in Europe is utter nonsense. Europe attracts the world's best players at present because of the ludicrous wages paid here and the appalling Champions League charade but that has not always been the case and certainly was not true in Pele's playing days when the best players in the world (Latin American players - nothing changes in that respect) all played in their home countries. Brazil certainly showed their mettle on international tours and World Cups when they routinely outclassed their European rivals. Maradona cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Pele either because of his conduct on and off the pitch - Pele, like the rest of the football world, was appalled by Maradona's cheating against England in 1986.

The fact he didn't play in Europe wasn't my only argument. We'll have to agree to disagree, but I still say Maradona was a better, and more influential player - and his misdemeanors off the pitch make no difference to his brilliance on it.

Oh, and the handball goal might have been cheating, but I seem to recall his other one being the greatest World Cup goal ever?

[philipl]

Having watched both on TV at their peak, I still think Maradona was only half the player that Pele was.

What I think is being missed is the intelligence of Pele as the total footballer; something Maradona never had. Pele also looked after himself much better than Maradona and was as awesome in 1970 as he was in 1958 despite taking the most horrendous kickings, not least in the 1966 World Cup.