[Archived] Champions League

[LeChuck]

Staggering statistic from another player involved in those two games vs Arsenal...

Xavi completed 229 out 244 passes over the two legs. That's absolutely unreal for a single player.

Edit: Rooney starts for Man Utd. I think every England fan in the country is going to be bricking it for the next few hours.

[Eddie]

You said he'd had three months of form. If you want to discredit every single award he's received or the goals he's scored over the past three seasons then that's fine. But don't change the argument to suit your point. Just because he's even more dominant now doesn't mean he wasn't 'in form' in the past.

3 MONTHS of form?!? You're not being serious there right? You appear to know a bit about French football, but it's obvious from that statement that you know little about World football and absolutely zero about La Liga. Check his record - you really, really need to before making wild statements like that. It's a 'patch' that's lasted all of his professional career so far - and he's only 22.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi

You two seem to have totally misunderstood this discussion. My argument has never been that Messi isn't a fantastic player and he's achieved a lot for a player who is still so young, but I was responding specifically to a comment that labelled him as particularly impressive over the last couple of months. I don't think anyone would actually disagree with that assertion, Messi has certainly made a leap, both domestically and on the European stage, since the turn of the year. He's hit particularly good form and his all round game has improved, as well as being on an amazing goalscoring run. The exact statement was by magicalmortensleftpeg:

"Ive never seen a player be so devastating in a single game as Messi has shown in the past 2 months or so, never."

The thing that makes internet discussion so difficult is the fact that people jump in and out and don't follow the entire thing.

I watch a lot of world football, I try and watch games from across 6/7 leagues every week and watch at least one football game a night, usually two or three. I probably watch 4 la liga games a weekend.

My original argument, just so that everyone can be clear on it is as follows:

1) That I'm not sure Messi is the best player in the world right now. He's certainly in the discussion and is probably slightly ahead now based on form, but I find it difficult to separate Messi, Ronaldo and Rooney. I believe that this summer will probably be when one of them will really stand out on the biggest stage.

2) That Messi has reached a media-darling level right now that comes about every year or two for athletes where everything they do is suddenly amazing (his 4 goals last night being a perfect example...it's obviously impressive to score 4 goals in a champions league game, but the nature of the goals didn't warrant the level of praise that he was receiving, and anyone who tells me that it was one of the "greatest individual performances ever" does seriously need to watch more football, or comment on football less and check their hyperbole levels).

3) At one point stating that I thought he was a cheating b*$t*rd as I didn't appreciate his 154 rolls after a good challenge by an Arsenal player (and again I accept that it is present at every level of the game and something that almost every player does, I just don't like the rolling and feigning injury. That's my personal thing).

4) That Messi is certainly not the best player ever (at least not at this point) and that I don't believe he can even enter into that discussion at this stage of his career. He's in a second tier of players of which there are probably 50 or 60. At this moment in time I don't rank him as the greatest player I've ever seen, the greatest player of his generation or the greatest player of the last 20 years (where again I'd rank probably 15 players ahead of him at this point, not entirely based on talent, but some simply because he hasn't had the time to achieve as much or prove himself to the same degree that they did over the course of their careers).

That's my little essay done, not entirely sure why a debate about Lionel Messi on a Blackburn Rovers messageboard has to get to the level where people start semi-insulting one another...but then that is the internet for you.

[sleepyjack]

As for the goalscoring, you have to look at that in context.

Come off it. You dismissed Messi as having three months of form. He was the top scorer in the CL last year.

What context are you going to look at that goalscoring in?

[MarkBRFC71]

You two seem to have totally misunderstood this discussion. My argument has never been that Messi isn't a fantastic player and he's achieved a lot for a player who is still so young, but I was responding specifically to a comment that labelled him as particularly impressive over the last couple of months. I don't think anyone would actually disagree with that assertion, Messi has certainly made a leap, both domestically and on the European stage, since the turn of the year. He's hit particularly good form and his all round game has improved, as well as being on an amazing goalscoring run. The exact statement was by magicalmortensleftpeg:

"Ive never seen a player be so devastating in a single game as Messi has shown in the past 2 months or so, never."

The thing that makes internet discussion so difficult is the fact that people jump in and out and don't follow the entire thing.

I watch a lot of world football, I try and watch games from across 6/7 leagues every week and watch at least one football game a night, usually two or three. I probably watch 4 la liga games a weekend.

My original argument, just so that everyone can be clear on it is as follows:

1) That I'm not sure Messi is the best player in the world right now. He's certainly in the discussion and is probably slightly ahead now based on form, but I find it difficult to separate Messi, Ronaldo and Rooney. I believe that this summer will probably be when one of them will really stand out on the biggest stage.

2) That Messi has reached a media-darling level right now that comes about every year or two for athletes where everything they do is suddenly amazing (his 4 goals last night being a perfect example...it's obviously impressive to score 4 goals in a champions league game, but the nature of the goals didn't warrant the level of praise that he was receiving, and anyone who tells me that it was one of the "greatest individual performances ever" does seriously need to watch more football, or comment on football less and check their hyperbole levels).

3) At one point stating that I thought he was a cheating b*$t*rd as I didn't appreciate his 154 rolls after a good challenge by an Arsenal player (and again I accept that it is present at every level of the game and something that almost every player does, I just don't like the rolling and feigning injury. That's my personal thing).

4) That Messi is certainly not the best player ever (at least not at this point) and that I don't believe he can even enter into that discussion at this stage of his career. He's in a second tier of players of which there are probably 50 or 60. At this moment in time I don't rank him as the greatest player I've ever seen, the greatest player of his generation or the greatest player of the last 20 years (where again I'd rank probably 15 players ahead of him at this point, not entirely based on talent, but some simply because he hasn't had the time to achieve as much or prove himself to the same degree that they did over the course of their careers).

That's my little essay done, not entirely sure why a debate about Lionel Messi on a Blackburn Rovers messageboard has to get to the level where people start semi-insulting one another...but then that is the internet for you.

To take each point:

1) At present, Messi is the best and probably has been for the last 3 years. It's only because our insular press can't stand that someone who's not playing in the Best League In The World is the best that he's perhaps not had the recognition. He's done it in big games, done it week in week out against all levels of opposition. Ronaldo choked in nearly every big game, and looked brilliant against Hull, but might as well have been on the bench when playing the likes of Chelsea. Rooney? Great this season, but merely good and sometimes inconsistent over the last few seasons. Also some questions about his scoring record against the best teams. Oh, and second best player in the world? Iniesta.

2) He is a media-darling, but that is because his performances deserve it. Granted he's playing the easily the best team in Europe, but he's clearly the best in that team.

3) Every player does it, it's even more grating thought when overrated tossers like Gerrard call other players fit to burn for it, then perform the worse dive ever the week after!

4) Agreed, far to early to say best ever, but the best at present. What's scary is that he is THIS good at 22 - at that age Zidane was nothing special at Bordeaux and look how good he ended up!

It will be interesting to see just how good he becomes - he certainly COULD end up the best ever. Will also be interesting to see how Maradona and the Argies utilise him in South Africa ....

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

You two seem to have totally misunderstood this discussion. My argument has never been that Messi isn't a fantastic player and he's achieved a lot for a player who is still so young, but I was responding specifically to a comment that labelled him as particularly impressive over the last couple of months. I don't think anyone would actually disagree with that assertion, Messi has certainly made a leap, both domestically and on the European stage, since the turn of the year. He's hit particularly good form and his all round game has improved, as well as being on an amazing goalscoring run. The exact statement was by magicalmortensleftpeg:

"Ive never seen a player be so devastating in a single game as Messi has shown in the past 2 months or so, never."

The thing that makes internet discussion so difficult is the fact that people jump in and out and don't follow the entire thing.

I watch a lot of world football, I try and watch games from across 6/7 leagues every week and watch at least one football game a night, usually two or three. I probably watch 4 la liga games a weekend.

My original argument, just so that everyone can be clear on it is as follows:

1) That I'm not sure Messi is the best player in the world right now. He's certainly in the discussion and is probably slightly ahead now based on form, but I find it difficult to separate Messi, Ronaldo and Rooney. I believe that this summer will probably be when one of them will really stand out on the biggest stage.

2) That Messi has reached a media-darling level right now that comes about every year or two for athletes where everything they do is suddenly amazing (his 4 goals last night being a perfect example...it's obviously impressive to score 4 goals in a champions league game, but the nature of the goals didn't warrant the level of praise that he was receiving, and anyone who tells me that it was one of the "greatest individual performances ever" does seriously need to watch more football, or comment on football less and check their hyperbole levels).

3) At one point stating that I thought he was a cheating b*$t*rd as I didn't appreciate his 154 rolls after a good challenge by an Arsenal player (and again I accept that it is present at every level of the game and something that almost every player does, I just don't like the rolling and feigning injury. That's my personal thing).

4) That Messi is certainly not the best player ever (at least not at this point) and that I don't believe he can even enter into that discussion at this stage of his career. He's in a second tier of players of which there are probably 50 or 60. At this moment in time I don't rank him as the greatest player I've ever seen, the greatest player of his generation or the greatest player of the last 20 years (where again I'd rank probably 15 players ahead of him at this point, not entirely based on talent, but some simply because he hasn't had the time to achieve as much or prove himself to the same degree that they did over the course of their careers).

That's my little essay done, not entirely sure why a debate about Lionel Messi on a Blackburn Rovers messageboard has to get to the level where people start semi-insulting one another...but then that is the internet for you.

Ive never seen Rooney dominate a top class opposition like Messi did last night. Ronaldo also never dismantled a 1/4 champions league opponent like Messi. Is he the greatest ever? obviously not yet, but he's the best there is at the moment and by quite some distance. Messi's performances this calendar year have been phenominal, beyond anything that any other player has managed over the past 4/5 years. 4 hat tricks since the turn of 2010 and 28 goals or something?? Beyond belief. I know its probably the easy way to get attention by not siding with those who think Messi is fabuluous player but its getting a bit boring.

[imy9]

You two seem to have totally misunderstood this discussion. My argument has never been that Messi isn't a fantastic player and he's achieved a lot for a player who is still so young, but I was responding specifically to a comment that labelled him as particularly impressive over the last couple of months. I don't think anyone would actually disagree with that assertion, Messi has certainly made a leap, both domestically and on the European stage, since the turn of the year. He's hit particularly good form and his all round game has improved, as well as being on an amazing goalscoring run. The exact statement was by magicalmortensleftpeg:

"Ive never seen a player be so devastating in a single game as Messi has shown in the past 2 months or so, never."

The thing that makes internet discussion so difficult is the fact that people jump in and out and don't follow the entire thing.

I watch a lot of world football, I try and watch games from across 6/7 leagues every week and watch at least one football game a night, usually two or three. I probably watch 4 la liga games a weekend.

My original argument, just so that everyone can be clear on it is as follows:

1) That I'm not sure Messi is the best player in the world right now. He's certainly in the discussion and is probably slightly ahead now based on form, but I find it difficult to separate Messi, Ronaldo and Rooney. I believe that this summer will probably be when one of them will really stand out on the biggest stage.

2) That Messi has reached a media-darling level right now that comes about every year or two for athletes where everything they do is suddenly amazing (his 4 goals last night being a perfect example...it's obviously impressive to score 4 goals in a champions league game, but the nature of the goals didn't warrant the level of praise that he was receiving, and anyone who tells me that it was one of the "greatest individual performances ever" does seriously need to watch more football, or comment on football less and check their hyperbole levels).

3) At one point stating that I thought he was a cheating b*$t*rd as I didn't appreciate his 154 rolls after a good challenge by an Arsenal player (and again I accept that it is present at every level of the game and something that almost every player does, I just don't like the rolling and feigning injury. That's my personal thing).

4) That Messi is certainly not the best player ever (at least not at this point) and that I don't believe he can even enter into that discussion at this stage of his career. He's in a second tier of players of which there are probably 50 or 60. At this moment in time I don't rank him as the greatest player I've ever seen, the greatest player of his generation or the greatest player of the last 20 years (where again I'd rank probably 15 players ahead of him at this point, not entirely based on talent, but some simply because he hasn't had the time to achieve as much or prove himself to the same degree that they did over the course of their careers).

That's my little essay done, not entirely sure why a debate about Lionel Messi on a Blackburn Rovers messageboard has to get to the level where people start semi-insulting one another...but then that is the internet for you.

I gave you a plus one as I agree with the points that you have made.

IMO Ronaldo is a better player than Messi, in the last four years he has scored an incredible 116 goals in 182 games, thats on top of 22 international goals in 69 apps, he can head a ball better, is two footed and can score devastating free kicks. Messi is certainly in the top 3 best players in the world but not the best. Cant wait for El Classico on Saturday!

[MarkBRFC71]

I gave you a plus one as I agree with the points that you have made.

IMO Ronaldo is a better player than Messi, in the last four years he has scored an incredible 116 goals in 182 games, thats on top of 22 international goals in 69 apps, he can head a ball better, is two footed and can score devastating free kicks. Messi is certainly in the top 3 best players in the world but not the best. Cant wait for El Classico on Saturday!

And in the last two seasons (prob a fair comparison since Messi is younger) he's scored 77 in 93 games. Or 110 in 169 games over the same 4 years .... and he's younger, and had two 3 month spells out injured.

Oh, and 13 in 43 for his country.

[sleepyjack]

IMO Ronaldo is a better player than Messi, in the last four years he has scored an incredible 116 goals in 182 games, thats on top of 22 international goals in 69 apps, he can head a ball better, is two footed and can score devastating free kicks. Messi is certainly in the top 3 best players in the world but not the best. Cant wait for El Classico on Saturday!

Don't want to argue too much about who's better, but if you want to use goalscoring as a yardstick, Messi has scored at a faster rate in the last 4 years, with 110 in 169.

Edit: beaten to it. And oh look, United are playing tonight.

[MarkBRFC71]

And oh look, United are playing tonight.

Come on Bayern.

[Amo]

Rooney starts for Utd.

[DeadlyDirk]

So much for Rooney not being fit, he's starting.

Time for him to step up then and show he is in the same league as Messi and Ronaldo.

As for deciding the world's greatest player I think you will forever go around in circles. As I mentioned before and imy9 has just mentioned, Messi is obviously a great player and in my opinion just ahead of Ronaldo right now on current form but Ronaldo is miles ahead of him in terms of aerial ability, striking from range and the fact that he can use both feet almost equally well.

What defines the greatest player? There are so many things to take into context such as standard of team mates, standard of opposition, the era they played in, the formation they played in, importance to the team, consistency, longevity (sp?) as well as your personal opinion on what makes a good footballer and what the most important attributes are? Is it better to have an all round game where you are very good in all areas or to be world class in a few areas?

It's so hard just to pick out one player and it's always the attacking players who catch the headlines but you could also throw in people like Baresi, Moore, Beckenbauer who obviously couldn't do what Maradona and Pele could do but then those two couldn't do half the things that Moore and co could.

Here's a question for you, you can pick 1 player out of Pele and Lev Lashin to play in your make believe team, the only catch is I have to play in the position that you don't pick, which player is more important now? A bit of a silly question obviously but sometimes goalkeepers and defenders don't get the credit they deserve.

Think how good the spine of the dutch team was when they had Koeman, Rijkaard and Gullit to get through. How effective would Messi be against them, how succesful was Maradona for those that remember? I'm not trying to be clever, that's an open question, a bit before my time, not sure if they even met very often.

[BuckyRover]

Rampant

[MarkBRFC71]

United 2-0 up. Time to switch off - there's no fun to be had in watching those c**ts win.

[Tom]

Couldn't agree more mark

[Eddie]

Come off it. You dismissed Messi as having three months of form. He was the top scorer in the CL last year.

What context are you going to look at that goalscoring in?

Learn to read properly and why don't you stick to sports played properly in your country?

Can I consider this won then?

and just to prove that, so that we don't have to keep discussing it...I wrote this yesterday:

"He's very, very, very good and will most likely be one of the best players I will ever watch, but people can stop creaming themselves." at 21:45 my time, so well before the game was even over.

Don't want to argue too much about who's better, but if you want to use goalscoring as a yardstick, Messi has scored at a faster rate in the last 4 years, with 110 in 169.

Essentially that is all we were ever discussing, but you seem to have missed that. I know you don't like putting statistics in context, but more goals are scored in La Liga, so it is a slightly skewed statistic.

Time for him to step up then and show he is in the same league as Messi and Ronaldo.

It was quite a nice pass to Valencia in the build-up to the second goal. Let's see if he can score 5 now...

Game is heating up quite nicely, could be interesting viewing.

Looks like Rooney will have to go off...seems like he's run it off a bit, but not moving entirely comfortably by the looks of things.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Listening to Five Live, Rooney is limping according to Alan Green.

[DeadlyDirk]

It was quite a nice pass to Valencia in the build-up to the second goal. Let's see if he can score 5 now...

Game is heating up quite nicely, could be interesting viewing.

Doesn't look like he'll be on much longer the way he's limping.

All rosy for Manure at the moment but all Bayern need is one goal and it's all square again, can we consider the possibility of the Germans knocking them out on penalties?

[Tom]

I hate itv commentary they basically just said the only reason united are winning is cause of Rooney being on the pitch. Total ######

[yankrover]

Rooney hobbling about pretty awkwardly. That's good for us.

[imy9]

Could we not agree upon a set of guidelines to judge the three players and then see how they fare?

1. Pace

2. Heading

3. Goal scoring

4. Work ethic

5. Left foot

6. Right foot

7. Free kicks

Any others?

[Tom]

Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts

[Eddie]

Could we not agree upon a set of guidelines to judge the three players and then see how they fare?

1. Pace

2. Heading

3. Goal scoring

4. Work ethic

5. Left foot

6. Right foot

7. Free kicks

Any others?

Could be interesting...if you do it like that I think Ronaldo would come out best by quite a bit.

United playing very well, dominating the midfield. Fletcher and Carrick continue to be an underrated midfield pairing...if you can have such a thing when they play for United.

[BuckyRover]

It's called synergy.

This Utd team definitely has bundles of it

[Guest roverspogges]

Why doesn't someone just start a "best of all time" or "current best player in the world" thread?

[92er]

Could we not agree upon a set of guidelines to judge the three players and then see how they fare?

1. Pace

2. Heading

3. Goal scoring

4. Work ethic

5. Left foot

6. Right foot

7. Free kicks

Any others?

Impact in important matches.