[Archived] Tottenham Vs Rovers

[John]

I agree with the sentiment of Den's posts.

For sure, I did not agree with some of Sam's decisions on Saturday. However, the bottom line is some of our players are very average.

I made the comment at the weekend, maybe slightly over hyping/playing it, that we have some talented youngsters coming through. The response was pity they don’t have any decent experienced/established players to play with.

Sloppy defending was the main reason we lost. We had the ball in dangerous areas on Saturday but our inability to show any quality in the final third was evident – it is a recurring theme.

[JAL]

We're a better team than Wolves and they beat Spurs. There's no reason why we couldn't have closed the gap in class, but decisions like leaving Salgado at the mercy of Bale and Kalinic fighting a one-man war were not conducive to that.

This isnt meant to be a criticism of Sam but after the third time that Salgado was seen to be still struggling with Bale, big Sam should have swapped Salgado and Emerton around to see if this would have had the desired effect.

Overall losing Robinson was a big distraction, but both full backs, along with Emerton and Dunn, let the side down badly at Tottenham.

[CAPT KAYOS]

This isnt meant to be a criticism of Sam but after the third time that Salgado was seen to be still struggling with Bale, big Sam should have swapped Salgado and Emerton around to see if this would have had the desired effect.

Also commented upon by the radio team ' a penalty waiting to happen' which so nearly became the case

[Sparky Marky]

Just what I thought as well Ozz. Spurs always looked like scoring goals against us - and when you have the two worst defensive full backs in the PL on show, it's no surprise.

Add a totally ineffective "strike force" and we have to say what a great job Allardyce has done with the current bunch of players. As to who is to blame for those players being there in the first place - well that's another argument.

Rubbish....I'd say we have a very effective forwardline....it's just that the midfield is really bad and offers no support....Kalinic is a class act and I think Di Santo is too...Trouble is, when you play one up front the midfield really need to support....Dunn isnt capable of doing this as he's too fat. I'd have brough Hoilett on to play dunns position and add a bit of enthusiasm to proceedings....

[den]

We're a better team than Wolves and they beat Spurs.

So?

Look at the bigger picture and you will see why Spurs beat us. They have better players.

Rubbish....I'd say we have a very effective forwardline....it's just that the midfield is really bad and offers no support....Kalinic is a class act and I think Di Santo is too...Trouble is, when you play one up front the midfield really need to support....Dunn isnt capable of doing this as he's too fat. I'd have brough Hoilett on to play dunns position and add a bit of enthusiasm to proceedings....

A very effective forward line - you're joking, right?

[JAL]

Who remembers Dunnys second minute run that should have resulted in him going onto a 2 v 1 situation with a final Spurs defender only for Dunny to slow up alarmingly after the first twenty yards of his sprint.

[Sparky Marky]

So?

Look at the bigger picture and you will see why Spurs beat us. They have better players.

A very effective forward line - you're joking, right?

yeah, I think it's got a lot of potential and kalinic is playing very well and seems to be adapting very well to the premierleague...trouble we've got is a lack of support and things for him to feed on....Kalinic will be bought by a top side...of course he's effective.

[speeeeeeedie]

Can't be bothered to go into any details about this game, but the bottom line is that Spurs and many other clubs have bought better players over the past few season's, while we have sold ours.

Formations, manager, tactics etc are simply misleading as to the cause of our present struggles. They might make a miniscule difference over a season, but not much. It's about players.

Den, I understand what you are saying but I think you need to realise that we have to sell our players to survive. Rovers don't have the money to spend £10million+ on 1 player, nevermind the 4 or 5 Spurs had playing. If Kalanic perfoms consistently next season he'll be the next one sold on for a healthy profit. We'll just have to find another one.

Rovers have a competent bunch of professionals yet they are told to play a compact game and capitalise in dead ball situations rather than play open football.

The bare bones financing and lack of free flowing football is reality with Allardyce, but it will keep us playing in the top flight.

[den]

Den, I understand what you are saying but I think you need to realise that we have to sell our players to survive.

Of course I realise that players have to be sold. We've moved too many players out and far too quickly though.

Rovers have a competent bunch of professionals.

Disagree there Speeeeeeeedie. We have a poor squad simply because we have sold too readily, too quickly and haven't had decent replacements lined up before letting players leave.

The bare bones financing and lack of free flowing football is reality with Allardyce, but it will keep us playing in the top flight.

Disagree there as well I'm afraid. You have to have much more than that to survive.

I know people are getting fed up of hearing all this, but, when a lot of folk were salivating at the prospect of getting top money for our better players, even though some of them acted like prats, they were a little too naieve to see what the inevitable outcome would be.

It's all about players.

[joey_big_nose]

Can't be bothered to go into any details about this game, but the bottom line is that Spurs and many other clubs have bought better players over the past few season's, while we have sold ours.

Formations, manager, tactics etc are simply misleading as to the cause of our present struggles. They might make a miniscule difference over a season, but not much. It's about players.

While I completely agree that Spurs investment has given them a huge advantage over us I would hardly say that "Formations, manager, tactics....make a miniscule difference". How did Rovers under Sparky or Bolton under Allardyce consistently finish above squads with better playing staff - including a Spurs team packed full of talent for the last decade?

The Newcastle team that got relegated last season was clearly, player for player, much better than those that finished above them. The Everton team that beat Liverpool to fourth was an inferior side than the Reds. I would say Sunderland player for player have a better team than us at the moment and they are below us.

Clearly players are a crucial component but tactics, team spirit, stability are exceedingly important.

Regarding the game:-

I thought we were okay for the first twenty and the 70th-85th min. Everything else was pretty abysmal. Kalinic and Samba had good games. Emerton and Chimbonda were terrible.

If we had taken one of the three very good chances we had in the first 20 mins it could have been a very different story.

I would have got Hoilett on the pitch at some stage as his pace could have troubled a very ordinary looking Spurs defence.

[joey_big_nose]

I know people are getting fed up of hearing all this, but, when a lot of folk were salivating at the prospect of getting top money for our better players, even though some of them acted like prats, they were a little too naieve to see what the inevitable outcome would be.

It's all about players.

But then conversely you seem to naieve to accept that we have to sell players:-

1) Because they want to go

2) To service our huge wage bill

It is pretty straightforward. You seem to under the impression we could have retained Bentley, Warnock, Cruz. How?

[den]

But then conversely you seem to naieve to accept that we have to sell players

Maybe read what I actually said JBN?

Of course I realise that players have to be sold. We've moved too many players out and far too quickly though.

How did Rovers under Sparky or Bolton under Allardyce consistently finish above squads with better playing staff - including a Spurs team packed full of talent for the last decade?

Well trying to compare squads over ten years is impossible and a matter of opinion, not fact. I could well enter into an argument over Spurs squads "packed with talent", but wont bother.

To me, reducing the quality of player has a massive effect on results as we can all see. It's so obvious. Now I agree that tactics/ coaching etc can and does make a difference, but not much - IMO.

[Exiled in Toronto]

The calibre of the squad shows itself in the league position over a season, not in individual games, when form, formation, tactics, luck and the like predominate in my view. Lille managed to beat Real Madrid over 2 legs having spent a tiny fraction in transfer fees.

We've sold good players ever since I was a nipper on the Riverside and, more often than not, put up a good show against supposedly superior squads. The issues are that we have not bought any breakthrough players to replace them and are not making best use of, at least away from home, the talents that we do have.

To my mind, not one player signed by either Ince or Allardyce has come in and had the impact that Nelsen, Samba, Bellamy, Benni, Bentley, Santa or Warnock did; none of whom were top dollar, nailed-on certs. Chimbonda and Sadgitto were appallingly bad on Saturday, not because we sold Warnock, but because they are not very good signings.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Surely in basic economics that simply means that we would out bid all but Real and Barca and sign the best players once those two are sorted? Therefore Philips opinion is valid to a degree.

No because turnover is relative to the league we play in. If Rovers relocated to Spain, out turnover would decrease as the terms of the TV deal is less equiatable to smaller clubs with a small fanbase such as our own. If anything staying in La Liga is even harder for small clubs to retain their postion than the Premiership as the big clubs absorb a far larger % of any deal than the Prem.

[T4E]

Lille managed to beat Real Madrid over 2 legs having spent a tiny fraction in transfer fees..

Lyon.

[joey_big_nose]

Maybe read what I actually said JBN?

This is a pretty standard response whenever anyone questions the point you are making which I find baffling.

What do you mean read what you said? I can quote:-

Self inflicted by selling, or replacing with poorer players in all those positions.

Of course I realise that players have to be sold. We've moved too many players out and far too quickly though.

Disagree there Speeeeeeeedie. We have a poor squad simply because we have sold too readily, too quickly and haven't had decent replacements lined up before letting players leave.

You say clearly here "we have sold too readily" and "far too quickly". I do not believe that is the case for any of them. We were financially and contractually (in the case of Bellamy) impelled to sell, alongside aware of the players clear intent to leave the club. I personally cannot see how we could have retained the players for longer.

Which players do you feel we could have held on to? Why?

[thenodrog]

Self inflicted by selling, or replacing with poorer players in all those positions.

This squad needs more than tinkering with.

Law of diminishing returns applies Den. I'd imagine simply a player of Campo's quality in midfield would elevate us to a regular top half finish.

After that we need to be looking to replace the likes of Salgado, Emerton, and Diouff with younger improvements and finding a keeper that would make Robinson ask for a transfer, but the combined sum total of those changes would not take us much further up the Prem table.

[den]

You say clearly here "we have sold too readily" and "far too quickly". I do not believe that is the case for any of them. We were financially and contractually (in the case of Bellamy) impelled to sell, alongside aware of the players clear intent to leave the club. I personally cannot see how we could have retained the players for longer.

Which players do you feel we could have held on to? Why?

I've gone through all that before JBN. We weren't "compelled" to sell so many of our best players, in so short a time. We chose to give get out clauses and decided to sell Bentley when it wasn't necessary.

Anyway, I raised the point about the real reason why we lost this game in order to focus on the fact that Spurs have better players than us. No matter who the manager is, as Exiled in Toronto said "The calibre of the squad shows itself in the league position over a season, not in individual games, when form, formation, tactics, luck and the like predominate in my view. Lille managed to beat Real Madrid over 2 legs having spent a tiny fraction in transfer fees."

So, while a manager's decisions or tactics might be costly in some games, they will also be beneficial in others. That's why I think too much is made of Allardyce's formations, tactics and selections. We have to look at the big picture and he has, without doubt, with this squad, got more positives in terms of results, than negatives.

[thenodrog]

No because turnover is relative to the league we play in. If Rovers relocated to Spain, out turnover would decrease as the terms of the TV deal is less equiatable to smaller clubs with a small fanbase such as our own. If anything staying in La Liga is even harder for small clubs to retain their postion than the Premiership as the big clubs absorb a far larger % of any deal than the Prem.

I don't want to be picky and I know what you are saying but I'd just like to point out bazza that Philips exact words were "So Rovers even as we are today would stand a decent chance of getting regular CL football in Spain." You have offered a different scenario.

It is pretty straightforward. You seem to under the impression we could have retained Bentley, Warnock, Cruz. How?

Easy..... Just ask David Moyes how he's done it.

[S15]

Easy..... Just ask David Moyes how he's done it.

What a useless comparison.

Bigger/richer club.

Plus, Rooney and Lescott?

[Miker]

I don't think Salgado was a player that should be blamed for our loss against Spurs. He struggled against Bale's pace, but he still tried his hardest to keep up with him and managed to do so on several occasions and put in some wonderfully timed tackles. We were undone by the injury to Robinson and by horrid defending at set pieces. There was disorganisation in the defence and with Nelsen and Robinson both out, it's not all that surprising.

We did very well in the first 20-25 minutes prior to Robinson going off, but then nervousness crept in and we stopped playing. If we hadn't conceded that 1st goal at the end of the half, we actually would've had a good chance of winning or at least drawing, but it wasn't to be.

Also, I agree that Chimbonda was awful and has been for the past few games. He should be kept away from the first team while we have Olsson available to play there.