[Archived] Rovers Might Have Been Sold?

[iamarover]

No news. Is very good news. A salutary reminder to 47er and all those praying for a takeover, that you must be very careful for what you wish for, is in this morning's Currant Bun. The lead sports story on Aston Villa shows what even the most benevolent of buyers will eventually do. They will take their money back.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/?CID=ILC-HP&ATTR=sportindx

The most recent accounts I could find for Villa don't make great reading once the foreign owner tires of his latest Christmas plaything. Currently Villa are paying £4m for the privilege of having Lerner's £45m transfer loans. Which achieved? Precisely nothing. That £45m is due in full in 6 years time. Lerner will have looked at the Premier League and realised there is no profit at all in football whilst voracious players and agents hoover up surplus cash, and fans' demands for the short term cash fix get ever shriller. The lexicon of transfers - injection, fix - are not dissimilar to that of drug users, not coincidentally.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-debt-league-how-much-do-clubs-owe-1912244.html

To pay that £45m off, Villa will now have to pay around £8m in interest/capital fees a year, and that money has to come from transfers or wage reductions. Commercial revenue will not rise, as Lerner hoped, unless Villa hit the Champions League - and that is looking increasingly unlikely. So they now need a trading manager, Allardyce-esque, to do that and give Lerner his cash back. Just about manageable for a big city club like Villa, but not easy, hence O'Neill's departure.

For the Rovers that sort of deal would be terminal. Look at the net outgoings demanded by the Trust.....it is a pleasureble nothing.

A takeover only makes sense if commercial revenues rise significantly as a result of it. £45m only buys the Rovers and its debt. Add in around £25m for the transfer funds postes here want and The Rovers Lerner would need a plan to get £70m out. Following the Villa model (the softest takeover yet in the Premier League so far) this would load Rovers with a debt payment of around £6m a year. Plus salaries, bonuses etc as they see fit. Philip thinks they would need still more to satisfy the Trust, which is all the more worrying.

Where will this £6m come from? Not, clearly, the Champions League. Not really either from improved League positions. Not at £750k a place anyway. Shah thinks this can be generated from a few thousand Asians in Lancashire and converting millions of cricket lovers 5,000 miles away to football, and then, unimaginably, to the Rovers. That is dreamland. Syed has no plans for us to see.

It's boring, but in the Black Jack world of the Premier League, Rovers are on 15. And like any pro player with that hand, the only option is not to Twist and hope for a Foreign Five or a Syed Six, but to hold on and watch the rest go bust.

The Trust has run its course and will not be putting money in. But, thankfully, they are not taking money out. That is why Liverpool will be bought this week and Rovers wont be. The Yanks dont care who they sell to, and the Trust does. And that is the best story you can read in a newspaper this morning. Thank the Lord this morning you are not a Villain.

[bob fleming]

Good post iamarover. As this drags on I can't help feeling that the grass will not be greener on the other side. Be careful what you wish for just about sums it up. Something for nothing? If it sounds too good to be true then.... etc etc etc

[RevidgeBlue]

No news. Is very good news. A salutary reminder to 47er and all those praying for a takeover, that you must be very careful for what you wish for, is in this morning's Currant Bun. The lead sports story on Aston Villa shows what even the most benevolent of buyers will eventually do. They will take their money back.

That would be exactly like the Trustees then. They've put in about 40m since Jack's death and that was the amount they were originally looking to recoup by selling the Club.

Nothing wrong with them being hard headed businessmen I suppose but don't make them out to be any different to anyone else in that respect.

[den]

We all know the dangers of a takeover iamarover, but the trust will eventually sell, it's just a matter of who they sell to. They have absolutely no intentions of keeping hold of the club, because they aren't football people and they aren't interested in football. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't be helping the club in their current plight, but they don't want to.

What's the point in believing otherwise?

[iamarover]

That would be exactly like the Trustees then. They've put in about 40m since Jack's death and that was the amount they were originally looking to recoup by selling the Club.

Nothing wrong with them being hard headed businessmen I suppose but don't make them out to be any different to anyone else in that respect.

The Trustees converted £110m of debt to shares effectively wiping out Jack's loans. The Trustees bankrolled the club during promotion - Rovers lost £30m in that season. And lost more the season after to allow Souness to get us the League Cup. Since the conversion the Trust has made contributions of £3m a year until that recently ended.

So in that respect they are different. They paid for the ground, the players, the Premiership, Promotion, the League Cup and Premier League consolidation. And now they only want around £20m of their money back as it seems they are insisted the debt is wiped out. Money that is considerably North of £40m. Nearer £120m. And no salaries, no bonuses, no dividends. Only Abramovich and, so far, Fayed, are piling money out without a return. So £120m in and £20m out, with the debt written off, means they are far from hard headed.

[RevidgeBlue]

What's the point in believing otherwise?

There seems to be some sort of sentimental attachment to the Trustees because they were appointed by Jack.

The reality sadly is that they must be the least supportive set of owners in the Division and have been for several years now.

[iamarover]

We all know the dangers of a takeover iamarover, but the trust will eventually sell, it's just a matter of who they sell to. They have absolutely no intentions of keeping hold of the club, because they aren't football people and they aren't interested in football. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't be helping the club in their current plight, but they don't want to.

What's the point in believing otherwise?

How else could they 'help' the club? You mean pile in more money? They have other responsibilities. Quite rightly pampered Premier League football players are not one of them. They are 'helping' the club by not asking for anything back arent they? All other owners apart from Fayed and Abramovich are sucking out cash.... that's the point. Reasonably they have drawn the line at £120m as being enough for a football club in a town of 105,000. Your first point is the key one though....who they sell to. And that, honestly, is where Rovers have the greatest protection.

[philipl]

I agree iamarover with the caveat that they were gifting £3m a year plus loaning another £3m a year interest-free, £18m of which they converted into share capital in addition to the numbers you give in your post.

[iamarover]

There seems to be some sort of sentimental attachment to the Trustees because they were appointed by Jack.

The reality sadly is that they must be the least supportive set of owners in the Division and have been for several years now.

Bollix

[den]

How else could they 'help' the club? You mean pile in more money? They have other responsibilities. Quite rightly pampered Premier League football players are not one of them. They are 'helping' the club by not asking for anything back arent they? All other owners apart from Fayed and Abramovich are sucking out cash.... that's the point. Reasonably they have drawn the line at £120m as being enough for a football club in a town of 105,000. Your first point is the key one though....who they sell to. And that, honestly, is where Rovers have the greatest protection.

You continue to argue that we should stick with the trust. Go tell them that.

A sobering thought. When Jack issued those 25m shares and bought them at £1 each, did anyone realise that that move could eventually see the end of the club?

[RevidgeBlue]

The Trustees converted £110m of debt to shares effectively wiping out Jack's loans. The Trustees bankrolled the club during promotion - Rovers lost £30m in that season. And lost more the season after to allow Souness to get us the League Cup. Since the conversion the Trust has made contributions of £3m a year until that recently ended.

So in that respect they are different. They paid for the ground, the players, the Premiership, Promotion, the League Cup and Premier League consolidation. And now they only want around £20m of their money back as it seems they are insisted the debt is wiped out. Money that is considerably North of £40m. Nearer £120m. And no salaries, no bonuses, no dividends. Only Abramovich and, so far, Fayed, are piling money out without a return. So £120m in and £20m out, with the debt written off, means they are far from hard headed.

That post is so far wide of the mark and so dismissive of Jack Walker's personal contribution it's untrue.

1) The Trustees might well have written off huge sums Jack invested before his death but that's hardly them being extraordinarily generous is it? For all we know that might have been what Jack stipulated in his will. Looked at logically there'd be little point in Jack putting all that money in whilst he was alive only for it to be repayable on his death. We could never afford to repay it.

2) The Trustees did not pay for the ground and promotion etc. Jack did. He was still alive when we faced a second season outside the top flight and he sanctioned one last tilt on a Premiership budget.

3) THe Trustees reportedly originally wanted an amount for the Club which roughly equated to their net investment since Jack's death. It seems no-one is willing to pay that and it may be they have adjusted their demands accordingly.

[RevidgeBlue]

You continue to argue that we should stick with the trust. Go tell them that.

A sobering thought. When Jack issued those 25m shares and bought them at £1 each, did anyone realise that that move could eventually see the end of the club?

That's the one argument "The Trust are wonderful" brigade can't answer Den.

If they themselves are so wonderful - and everyone else is so unsuitable - why are they selling?

As to your second point, I doubt we'll go under altogether but we'll soon witness the end of the Club in it's present form as Jack created it if the Trustees hang onto control any longer.

[Majiball]

Jack or the trustees it doesn't matter, show me how many other owners have done what they both have???

[den]

How else could they 'help' the club? You mean pile in more money?

I didn't say they "should" put more money in, I said they "could" put more money in - simply to highlight the fact that they don't wish any more involvement.

John Williams is aware of the stark situation of the trustees position and has said what the position is. They don't see their way of putting any more cash into the club - and the last loan they made was a one off.

You want the trustees to remain with the club and do what exactly?

[thenodrog]

You just have to look at Liverpool, Portsmouth and even United to see how having new owners can go wrong and the fans turn against them. .

I bet there's a certain resentment is fomenting at Villa now. It's like giving a child a lollipop and then taking it off it half eaten.

[den]

I bet there's a certain resentment is fomenting at Villa now. It's like giving a child a lollipop and then taking it off it half eaten.

Of course there will be Gordon. You quite rightly continue to point to the dangers of a takeover, but don't say what the other options are.

[thenodrog]

That's the one argument "The Trust are wonderful" brigade can't answer Den.

If they themselves are so wonderful - and everyone else is so unsuitable - why are they selling?

As to your second point, I doubt we'll go under altogether but we'll soon witness the end of the Club in it's present form as Jack created it if the Trustees hang onto control any longer.

Simon with an income in excess of 50m pa per club why does football need people to simply throw money in with a zero chance of any return ever? It's one sad sick industry that needs putting down.

[Iceman]

we know what the options are Den, and those options are right now closely being looked at.

[den]

As to your second point, I doubt we'll go under altogether

Get the wrong owners in Simon and we very well could do.

[thenodrog]

Den see above reply to Rev.

2-3 million paid each year to journeymen footballers is sick. Not only is it sick it invariably ends up abroad and denies ALL levels of football the funds filtering down to improve and move forward.

[Iceman]

Get the wrong owners in Simon and we very well could do.

but that’s the option right now, (well not the wrong owner), but new investment is whats needed. You can put any spin on the current situation, but fact remains that we need a new injection of funds into this club. Its painful to watch right now, but if we blow it by selecting the wrong people to takeover, then we going to be in deep ######. I hope there will be strict conditions, to anybody who is taking over the club.

[philipl]

The Trust ARE wonderful.

There is a 90%+ chance that something far far worse would be happening now had they not kept us out of the clutches of previous suitors.

[den]

Den see above reply to Rev.

2-3 million paid each year to journeymen footballers is sick. Not only is it sick it invariably ends up abroad and denies ALL levels of football the funds filtering down to improve and move forward.

Yeah agreed, but that isn't an answer to how you think the trustees should proceed.

[RevidgeBlue]

The Trust ARE wonderful.

There is a 90%+ chance that something far far worse would be happening now had they not kept us out of the clutches of previous suitors.

None of said suitors came up with the required asking price.

That's about the long and the short of it.

[nicko]

The Trust ARE wonderful.

There is a 90%+ chance that something far far worse would be happening now had they not kept us out of the clutches of previous suitors.

Book a room.

But get them to pay.