[Archived] Rovers Might Have Been Sold?

[nicko]

Hope that clears things up - events as they REALLY happened. Not half as juicy and salacious as some would like, but actual facts. Though one day the mystery may be revealed - just how the hell did Nixon get on to the story to start with..........(in the auto-biography Nicko?)

Won't copy the post, but all I can say is that [a] you are very well informed and I am quite happy somebody went into details that I could not at the time or since.

Impressed.

[Hi Mack]

I think it is pretty much common knowledge now, that not only do the club want to be bought, but we're getting to the point now where we need to be bought out. After attending recent Fans Forum meetings, it is blatantly obvious that every single penny the club makes is vital. Again this just proves how good a job JW and the other board members are doing at present. For example this weekend we come up against Chelsea who spend 18M willy-nilly and pay ridiculous wages, yet we're expected to compete and to a certain extent we are. Football is CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!

Wonder if Mr Dan Williams re-ignites his interest?

[BPF]

Hope that clears things up - events as they REALLY happened. Not half as juicy and salacious as some would like, but actual facts. Though one day the mystery may be revealed - just how the hell did Nixon get on to the story to start with..........(in the auto-biography Nicko?)

Are you Dan Williams?

[alexanders]

Sure Dan Williams must be interested going to watch the Rovers. Wonder if there is negotiations going on?

I would rather see Dan Williams than a Saudi owning this club.

[T4E]

Hang on a minute - just one post, from an albeit seemingly well informed poster, and suddenly everyone is pro-Dan Williams again?

We really are an incredibly fickle bunch.

[gumboots]

Hang on a minute - just one post, from an albeit seemingly well informed poster, and suddenly everyone is pro-Dan Williams again?

We really are an incredibly fickle bunch.

I don't think most of us are pro-anyone. Just worried that we might be sold to someone as dodgy as those who took over Portsmouth and thinking that if there are any other interested parties out there it's worth looking at them all. Someone who has taken the trouble to keep coming back to Rovers as a spectator after what happened obviously has marginally more affinity with the club than an Arab business man who may not even know where we are on a map and so people are probably just curious to know if there's any interest from him still.

[bluebruce]

I don't think most of us are pro-anyone. Just worried that we might be sold to someone as dodgy as those who took over Portsmouth and thinking that if there are any other interested parties out there it's worth looking at them all. Someone who has taken the trouble to keep coming back to Rovers as a spectator after what happened obviously has marginally more affinity with the club than an Arab business man who may not even know where we are on a map and so people are probably just curious to know if there's any interest from him still.

I actually think it's a little ignorant and perhaps even xenophobic to suggest that because Portsmouth's dodgy owners (some of them) were Arabic, all Arabic businessmen are shady. Man City's owners don't seem to be screwing the club over (so far at least). The nationality makes NO difference to me, I just want owners who are prepared to take a loss, and they almost certainly don't exist for us. But I live in hope. Anything else and we're just as well off (or better) with the Trust.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Interesting stuff indeed!

A newish poster with such intimate info Rivercider?.....come now, who are you really

[T4E]

I don't think most of us are pro-anyone. Just worried that we might be sold to someone as dodgy as those who took over Portsmouth and thinking that if there are any other interested parties out there it's worth looking at them all. Someone who has taken the trouble to keep coming back to Rovers as a spectator after what happened obviously has marginally more affinity with the club than an Arab business man who may not even know where we are on a map and so people are probably just curious to know if there's any interest from him still.

Up until a couple of days ago the name Dan Williams was met with much derision around here - now we're hoping he's still interested.

Thank God the Trustees take a slightly longer view otherwise we really could be in Pompey's position right now.

[gumboots]

I actually think it's a little ignorant and perhaps even xenophobic to suggest that because Portsmouth's dodgy owners (some of them) were Arabic, all Arabic businessmen are shady. Man City's owners don't seem to be screwing the club over (so far at least). The nationality makes NO difference to me, I just want owners who are prepared to take a loss, and they almost certainly don't exist for us. But I live in hope. Anything else and we're just as well off (or better) with the Trust.

Sorry if it came across as suggesting that because one or two have been dodgy , all automatically are. Not true of course, but you have to admit that recently Arab businessmen interested in investing in a premier league club have not really had a very good press. I don't care who buys Rovers either in terms of their nationality, race, colour, creed or anything else provided they are investing for the right reasons - to take our club forward whilst maintaining a sense of our history and integrity as far as the dealings with fans and with the rest of the league are concerned. I don't care if they are little green men from Mars personally, but it must be said that so far several investors from the middle east have done less well by the clubs they have been involved in than many would like or expect.

[rivercider]

If the post is indeed valid it would show greed by the trust, nothing more. A deal was being done but they preferred to believe the line of other parties being interested paying the full whack for the club, which turned out to be ######. And now with the current talk of the price being dropped, it really is egg on face for the trust.

I think that is a little harsh. The trust had a set of numbers in their head - 50/20ish/20 - for price of the club, debt service or assumption and money to be put in to the club.

The Plainfield group were only willing to offer, I believe, around 35/20ish/20. Others at the time were talking larger numbers. I don't know that it was greed - remember at the time there were CCC clubs being sold for silly money, the trust probably believed they could get top whack.

As for renewing interest, deals have momentum and it would seem unlikely to me that such momentum could be restarted. Also let's not forget, there is a difference between a club 7th in the League pushing for Europe with Bentley, Warnock, at the time a hugely in form MGP etc and today is a different market also with prices for everything being reduced. For the sale price to have come down from 50 to 25 doesn't halve the price of the club - the debt still remains the same and if anything the amount needed to be invested has increased - the squad is weaker, wages are higher, the stadium is older etc etc.

I am not one of the main players but I used to sit very close to them, and as a result have become a Rovers fan (with regards to my original post, I am one of the people who has flown over to see some Rovers games this season albeit not as part of the Williams group trips, and would have been more often if going to Ewood Park didn't involve a 9hr flight on a tiny single aisle plane - Continental from Newark to Manchester is NOT a 767 route! - followed by the fun of customs, a 90 minute taxi ride to the hotel, 20 minutes in to town for the games, followed by a 10hr flight back, the joy of US immigration and then an hour back home). If I had paid I for it I think it would have run me around $6000 to attend each game, so sadly I must wait for the rare times when BBC America shows the Rovers live, otherwise it is some dodgy internet site for live streams (of the football, mind out of the gutter).

My intent of my post was simply this - there were myths and lies being touted by people, for why I don't know. The resident journo here knows far more than most and yet some still claim they were somehow more intimate with details known by probably 6 - 8 people in Blackburn/Jersey/Rothschilds and no more than 8 here in the US, none of whom to date have broken silence publicly.

To clarify once and for all - Plainfield and Williams were never "run out of the club" or told to "do one" - I think a wealthy fan backed by a group with billions was seen as a perfect fit and the trustees and Williams/Finn felt the same way. There was mutual regret that things got out to the public eye and that a deal was not done. Things ended amicably in early July, and in August after several parties had failed to prove funds or move forwards, there was a brief re-ignition of interest but it was literally one call nothing more.

The trust were not greedy or disinterested, they had a price they were advised was reasonable at the time, and stuck to it.

The trust specifically asked (not demanded) that buyers make efforts to align their plans to "Jack's philosophy" so while price and value is their main goal, they would prefer to sell to someone who would commit to not strip the club of its assets or its soul.

Contrary to some posters on here who seem to think they know more than they do, Jack's Will and the Trust's duties are pretty simple - the Trust manages his money on behalf of his heirs, and their duty is to maximise the well-being of the estate of his heirs. Those heirs feel that they would like to cash in on the club, have for several years now, so they are looking for a buyer. There are no magical covenants, the heirs want the most money with I suppose a minor caveat that they don't want to see their Dad's legacy tarnished - subjective Will terms in estates and trusts only exist in Hollywood films, in reality trusts are administered for measurable goals, not things that are open to opinion.

J. Williams/Brown/Finn were not leaking, playing games in the press or doing the club any harm, they acted completely properly at all times.

I know all of this how? Because I listened in on conference calls, proof read documents, sat in on meetings etc. I even spoke to Nicko once or twice on the phone I believe, though lots of reporters were calling at the time.

A Blackburn Rovers fan in America

[T4E]

Thank you rivercider. A question though - just for the devilment - would you say that Nicko breaking the story was the reason it didnt happen the first time around? Would a longer period of secrecy have given enough time for negotiations to reach a more positive conclusion?

[modes98]

Excellent point, if you think Blackburn Rovers is nothing more special than Cadburys chocolate.

It wasn't specific to a single business it could apply it any business. I would point out though that Cadburys sold for £11.5billion and we are being advertised at £25m.

[rivercider]

Up until a couple of days ago the name Dan Williams was met with much derision around here - now we're hoping he's still interested.

Thank God the Trustees take a slightly longer view otherwise we really could be in Pompey's position right now.

This is why I made my original post.

The Trustees don't take a longer view, they want to sell up, and would have done 3 years ago to pretty much anyone who paid them 50mil and took over the debts. There's nothing more to it than that, and equally if you think that is wrong you are slightly deluded too - the trust exists to secure the well-being of generations to come of Walkers' heirs. Those heirs want the money out of the club, and they have EVERY right to that. It is just insane to suggest that Linda Walker, given a choice between quality of life for her grandkids, great grandkids and so on, really should keep 20,000 Rovers' fans views in mind. You look after your own, and all power to her and her family. They want top dollar/sheckel/yen in return for the sale of the club, that is their "long term" goal. That is fact, and far from a criticism.

As for Dan Williams being derided on here - he was and IMHO it was totally unfair. First of all he was derided because a few people decided to constantly repeat the statement that Dan Williams was told to do one by the club, until that became accepted as fact. What people who actually know the events of the time will tell you - Nixon, myself - is that first of all Williams was at most 10% of the money - the real money came from Plainfield who had a "4 commas" value, and secondly he was never "unmasked" or "chased off by the trustees". Who claimed that and why, I have no idea, but I know this, both Williams and Plainfield have been contacted by Rothschilds since to push other (larger) deals and if that group came back today they would be welcomed back by the Club as the "perfect ticket" once again as they were three years ago. The deal failed because they could not agree an equity price, simple as that. The offer was 35+debts+20 over 3 years for infrastructure/players, the trust wanted 50+debts+20.

As it happens both parties would have been better off if the deal had happened. Plainfield, the main protagonists in the deal, had more money than they could spend back in 2007 and as a result ended up doing some really bad deals (I have to be a little careful here) including over $150mm in to Pay-by-Touch and $88mm in to a resort in the Bahamas...turns out we'd have been better off pumping that money in to Rovers and fighting to keep Santa Cruz/Bentley etc but hindsight is 20/20.

But again, your post illustrates exactly why I posted - to dispel the (totally inaccurate and unfair) myths that either the Plainfield/Williams group "failed" or were "rooted out" and to try to end this delusion that the trust has a long term set of criteria for Rovers. The fact they even address the issue of future investment and preserving Brockall with potential investors is actually incredible, and there should be gratitude for that small fact and the money they have put in since Jack died which they have no legal obligation to do.

[chaddyrovers]

Rivercider would the group ever look into buying Rovers again????? I would want a rovers fan to buy the club. I was FOR the Williams group in buying the club. Just thought their would protect Uncle Jack Wishes and invest wisely in the club.

[rivercider]

Thank you rivercider. A question though - just for the devilment - would you say that Nicko breaking the story was the reason it didnt happen the first time around? Would a longer period of secrecy have given enough time for negotiations to reach a more positive conclusion?

No, certainly not to blame, and I think Nixon beat other journos by a couple of days to things.

Actually I heard a comment from Vee-An from Plainfield at the time, echoed by one of Williams' bankers, that Nixon completely surprised them by his level of knowledge, his discretion and his seemingly genuine desire to HELP get a deal done. Not the image someone usually has of a "tabloid hack".

If the deal failed for any external reason it was because third parties emerged offering what now looks like silly money for the club then floated away. Hard for the Plainfield/Williams group to push too hard for UKP35mm sale price (by the way, I am going off 3 year old memories and all negotiations were (ironically) done in Euros) when there were stalking horses whispering about UKP50mm.

I am no longer bound by a Non-Disclosure on this matter, so legitimately will answer anything I can without betraying any confidences of people who deserve to be respected, John Williams, Dan Williams, Tom Finn, David Brown, Justin Burley, Max Holmes, Peter Cuneo, Walter Hubert, Alan Nixon et al. It is old news now I know but also it is perhaps relevant again. I don't know half as much as 99% of you on here about football (or footie as I am told to call it now) and my knowledge of the current Rovers team is minimal, so this is about all I can comment on.

[Craigman]

Thanks Rivercider. Very interesting comments, I hope that Plainfield/Wiliams group are not too tarnished from the deluded Blackburn fans (me included). They obviously do not deserve that.

[T4E]

Actually I heard a comment from Vee-An from Plainfield at the time, echoed by one of Williams' bankers, that Nixon completely surprised them by his level of knowledge, his discretion and his seemingly genuine desire to HELP get a deal done. Not the image someone usually has of a "tabloid hack".

C'mon Alan, the posting guidelines clearly state that multiple accounts are not allowed. You cheeky scamp, you.

[chaddyrovers]

Thankyou for telling us all about what went on back then. Do you still work there?

[rivercider]

Rivercider would the group ever look into buying Rovers again????? I would want a rovers fan to buy the club. I was FOR the Williams group in buying the club. Just thought their would protect Uncle Jack Wishes and invest wisely in the club.

Times have not been exactly great on Station Road in Connecticut (Plainfield offices). There were some panic buys made in 2008/2009 when the company had to make investments to get returns - like I said, Bahamas resorts and companies like Pay-By-Touch were far from astute.....and imagine if we'd invested 50mm in cash in to Rovers and were looking to sell today (would not have been the case but imagine) we'd have lost 50% of our investment.

So hard for Plainfield to justify doing a deal which, just 30+ months ago we were told was a bargain but which, if had been done, would have been a huge loss. Now it would be hard for a hedge fund to do this deal, at the time it would have been great for Rovers because there was real money to spend to develop the asset.

Dan Williams really does have a horse with a blond main called Hendry. His office has a framed ticket from the Worthington Cup final and a picture of him and Matt Jensen from that day. Recently he judged the Business Plan contest at Georgetown Business School in Washington and we were on the same panel - during his closing remarks he said something along the lines of "the Mayans say the world will end in 2012, personally I think it already happened the day Shearer went to Newcastle but none of you will understand that reference". When I was with him and former director of BRFC Mr. Hubert I watched the two of them look at an old picture and rattle off the names of the entire squad that won the Prem in an instant with lots of humming and cawing about "ooh yeah, Wilcox on the wing, magic". Guess that is what being a fan in England is all about, beyond me though. So do I think he might be interested still, sure, but he'd either need to sell off one of his businesses or get new partners/backers. Ask Nixon, I think they became quite good "mates" after the whole affair.

[Hughesy]

The deal, as indicated by Nicko, was to buy the club for cash (equity) and refinance existing debt (but add no further debt - the commitment to not add, and indeed reduce the club's debts, was clearly laid out by the club as part of the "what Jack would have wanted" part of the equation).

With hindsight it seems that none of the other investors/interested parties turned out to have the required funds or were similarly unwilling to meet the valuation at the time which was pretty much as widely reported - around an 90million commitment in total consisting of equity to buy the club, inheritance/transfer of debt from the club itself to the buyer, and a multi-year commitment to invest more in to the club/team plus an understanding to keep on certain personnel and not sell the "prime assets" - i.e. Ewood and Brockall.

Williams, Plainfield and the club agreed on all aspects except the actual price of the club - Plainfield at the time had over 6billion in assets, and has only grown since.

rivercider - thanks for your info.....we may of just learned abit about the wishes Jack set out in his trust.

If it was £90m and they were worth £6bn - why didnt they buy us if they only had to gaurantee £90m?

And if they are worth more now - why not now at an even lower price??

Peter Cuneo wiki

Justin Burley - no wiki on him

[rivercider]

Thanks Rivercider. Very interesting comments, I hope that Plainfield/Wiliams group are not too tarnished from the deluded Blackburn fans (me included). They obviously do not deserve that.

If it is possible to blame "cultural differences" and "the unity of our two nations divided by a common language" I did not mean deluded in a bad sense, it was not meant as a put down or an insult, I should have said mis-informed.

Plainfield has enough issues with the deals they DID and lost money on to worry too much about a few fans of a club they DIDN'T buy, and like I said, they seem OK with it, I know that the younger of the two gents was at the Chelsea game in London cheering for the Rovers (in the Chelsea corporate hospitality boxes to boot as guest of a Chelsea fan)

Dan Williams I think took the abuse from fans a little more personally just because they were fellow fans in his mind and he had offered to put a sizeable percentage of his wealth up to help the club only to get mocked, which I know stung him - he was offered seats in the boxes for the games this season but preferred to go and sit in the Walker Stand with a cap on (his hair is REALLY ginger BTW) so as to ensure no further attention. That said he's a big boy (literally, I can't do stones but he is 6'4" and 250lbs)and I am sure he has a thick skin.

So really no harm done, but always best to know the facts I think.

[rivercider]

rivercider - thanks for your info.....we may of just learned abit about the wishes Jack set out in his trust.

If it was £90m and they were worth £6bn - why didnt they buy us if they only had to gaurantee £90m?

And if they are worth more now - why not now at an even lower price??

Peter Cuneo wiki

Justin Burley - no wiki on him

I think an analogy best covers that.

Let's say you are a guy worth, say £60,000 - your equity in your house, bank account, car etc all add up to 60k (thanks for the £ to copy and paste by the way, I don't have one on my keyboard here).

I use £60,000 because I think that is an easy number for us all to relate to, and many on here probably fit that or better.

So you are worth £60,000 and someone is asking £500 for something that, according to any means of valuing it, is only worth £350. Do you think "sod it, I'll just waste the other £150".

If so, I will give you my e-mail and you can shoot me over £150 that you obviously don't need.

Plus aside from this odd notion that rich people/firms somehow got rich by not caring about £15,000,000 or that a US hedge fund/Jersey based trust would rather write off large sums of money than upset the fans of Rovers, the fact is that a good deal is a good deal however you slice and dice it, and Rovers in 2007 was not a good deal. Today, Plainfield has more assets but less appetite for what is called "illiquid investments" - i.e. ones you cannot sell. Rovers have sold Roque Santa Cruz, David Bentley and Steve Warnock - probably the three best players at that time - and Benni McCarthy/Brad Friedel/Tugay have either left or devalued massively. What's more there is no longer the "bubble" caused by (at the time) the flurry of takeovers - Villa, QPR, Derby - that were going on, so even £25,000,000 is no assured sale, especially since the £3,000,000 the trust puts in is, I believe, repayable as debt so the debts have probably increased if anything.

Finally, Plainfield looks at a deal once. Very rare ANY company will revisit a deal after this amount of time.

Like I said in my last post, Williams MIGHT but Plainfield very unlikely, so he'd need new backers. Plus I think he realises that the easiest way to lose your love for a club is to give £10,000,000 to it, lose it all, and have the fans turn on you nevertheless.

[nicko]

This is all rather surreal.

Life on Mars-like.

[rivercider]

This is all rather surreal.

Life on Mars-like.

There's life on Mars? You should definitely write that one up

Surreal but I think pretty accurate, no? I wasn't privy to every conversation that happened but think this is a reasonably accurate summary of things. Although my non-disclosure has expired I am trying not to betray any actual confidences - leave that to the papers to do but I have tried to be as accurate as possible here.