[Archived] Rovers Might Have Been Sold?

[LeChuck]

Looks like we're one of the better Premiership teams for credit rating:

Times Article on football credit

Really interesting. It's no surprise that Arsenal and us have been bracketed together, I think we're arguably the two best run clubs in terms of finances. Man Utd are still there because, so far, the Glazers are managing to keep up their repayments (thanks to Ronaldo mainly).

[Hughesy]

The influx of e-mails has led to a little bit of a softening, I must admit.

I am going to meet next week with a couple of old friends from Hong Kong now

living in the States who happen to be billionaires and float the idea of at

least exploring things again.

Tell them their is a great china town not too far away for decent food if they do buy us!

If the club is available for £20m less then surely it makes sense, if you was interested the 1st time, now it makes more sense - especially now thier is more TV money for clubs...and that just continues to grow!

[thenodrog]

Tell them their is a great china town not too far away for decent food if they do buy us!

If the club is available for £20m less then surely it makes sense, if you was interested the 1st time, now it makes more sense - especially now their is more TV money for clubs...and that just continues to grow!

Obviously some of the softening is between your ears Hughesy. Now click the Times link about Prem clubs wealth status again and tell me whether or not you'd rather have us in the other camp or the one that we are currently in.

Coincidence that this is published in the times as 47er fwds his response from somebody apparently in the US.

[roversmum]

Regarding the land personally I think we should be buying up land/properties around Ewood not selling it.

[47er]

Very revealing and displays the shambles that prem football is in... and the acumen of those individuals running it. Idiots with a deathwish or what? Chief executives using somebody elses money and strap on balls.

BRFC stands out like a beacon and yet how many want to see the end of the Walker years? err ... apart from the Walkers that is.

Well done to BRFC and respect to the Dingles.

Well I want to see the end of the Walker family years because THEY do, as you admit. What is the point of clinging to something you know cannot be?

As to the authenticity of all this, I deliberately haven't commented. It can't be proved, it can't be disproved. Time will tell i guess. If I am being made a fool of,so what? I'll just cop it. As to me forwarding this letter on, the timing has nothing to do with any article in the Times. I got this info last Sunday and, as I said, I've been away till now. Its me asking for it to be resent that has determined the timing. Really these sorts of conspiracy theories have bedevilled this board for years.

[braddock]

Looks like we're one of the better Premiership teams for credit rating:

Times Article on football credit

i'm confused as to the date at the top of the page

From The Times

October 26, 2010

[47er]

Eh? Now I'm only from the sticks around Blackburn but .....

1. Air travel costs are a drop in a bucket and largely irrelevent in comparison to the numbers being talked about. An investment of £70m needs to return a significant amount otherwise their wont be an investment. Furthermore there's only 5 away matches per season in the capital so a total cost of $30k or £20k sterling is a drop in a bucket...... or to put it in perspective prob a weeks wage in June for Keith.

Just as a matter of interest our directors and their guests don't fly over club class or whatever from the US every home game either so I suggest the current cost of air travel to the club will look pretty cheap compared to yours should you get the nod.

2. Selling off part of the DE car park to some supermarket will realise 500k pa! Well whoopy doo! That won't go far and once it's sold it's gone! (Not really relevent financially but where would that leave the brick btw?)

3. Spare office space in Blackburn is plentiful and cheap as chips. In fact go to the horses mouth and ask the Walkers! Theyve plenty of office space on Walker Park that they cant get rid of for goodness sake. Truth is a 'make me any kind of an offer' situation exists around these parts at the moment regarding office space.

Mr Williams I don't expect you to reveal all your plans but all that is candy floss and simply isn't enough to provide any sort of a decent return. Where do you expect a big enough return to justify such investment really come from?

I don't really want to rain on your parade but if there was any money to be made out of BRFC the Walkers wouldn't be wanting to sell. They'd be damned well making it. They aren't known to be naive when it comes to business matters are they?

As for out-drinking Mike Ashley...... Good grief!

Re your point 2, read the letter again properly and spot your mistake. The words "rush to condemn" come to my mind.

[Paul]

I'm not going to criticize anyone let alone shooting the messenger in 47er. This gets more bizare with every day that goes by. Effectively criticising the current board for flying first class, I'd be amazed if they do, in public does not ring true of someone who wants to invest, neither does corresponding with a random set of supporters via e-mail. If Dan Williams wants to buy he should be talking in the right places, if he needs to go public he should clear it with the Trust and then do an exclusive with the LET.

[T4E]

Cynicism reigns.

Anyway, rivercider has arranged to meet some members of this board at a place in Philly on Sunday to watch us smash the Dingles, I guess after that some people will be more willing to take what is being said at face value.

[Gav]

Wonder if Nicko will be giving this site a plug when he ‘borrows the story’ from this site for his next takeover story

[nicko]

Wonder if Nicko will be giving this site a plug when he ‘borrows the story’ from this site for his next takeover story

There is no story yet.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Eh? Now I'm only from the sticks around Blackburn but .....

1. Air travel costs are a drop in a bucket and largely irrelevent in comparison to the numbers being talked about. An investment of £70m needs to return a significant amount otherwise their wont be an investment. Furthermore there's only 5 away matches per season in the capital so a total cost of $30k or £20k sterling is a drop in a bucket...... or to put it in perspective prob a weeks wage in June for Keith.

Just as a matter of interest our directors and their guests don't fly over club class or whatever from the US every home game either so I suggest the current cost of air travel to the club will look pretty cheap compared to yours should you get the nod.

2. Selling off part of the DE car park to some supermarket will realise 500k pa! Well whoopy doo! That won't go far and once it's sold it's gone! (Not really relevent financially but where would that leave the brick btw?)

3. Spare office space in Blackburn is plentiful and cheap as chips. In fact go to the horses mouth and ask the Walkers! Theyve plenty of office space on Walker Park that they cant get rid of for goodness sake. Truth is a 'make me any kind of an offer' situation exists around these parts at the moment regarding office space.

Mr Williams I don't expect you to reveal all your plans but all that is candy floss and simply isn't enough to provide any sort of a decent return. Where do you expect a big enough return to justify such investment really come from?

I don't really want to rain on your parade but if there was any money to be made out of BRFC the Walkers wouldn't be wanting to sell. They'd be damned well making it. They aren't known to be naive when it comes to business matters are they?

Where to begin....

Firstly, the kind of people DW claims to have had behind him rarely look to run their acquisitions like a corner shop the way you seem to think. They look to make their money, not from annual profits taken out of a business, but from the increased capital value that accrues from selling a more valuable business later on. John Hall made a fortune from Newcastle because he sold it for a lot more than he paid for it. Similarly the butcher's boy and the Irish betters at Man U; Doug Ellis at Villa, Makin at City and so on.

Secondly, they look for businesses being neglected by the current owners, as in not being invested in. Business is all about differences in opinion about potential value. And the Walker Trust are not Jack Walker, far from it, so I don't see that they will be infallible when it comes to judging the potential value of an asset none of them have ever been interested in. The Trust has a primary duty to preserve its capital and hence is inherently more risk averse than an investor. Owning a football club is a risky business.

Thirdly, venture capitalists invariably micro-manage the ongoing costs, to levels much lower than first class air-fares.

Fourthly, they look to invest capital, of which they have a virtual limitless supply, where they can see opportunities to increase the value of the business.

As Rivercider points out, events proved that this is one where they would have lost value, but that's what these people do - win some and lose some. Leaving their money in the bank is not what they do.

[Kelbo]

Where to begin....

Firstly, the kind of people DW claims to have had behind him rarely look to run their acquisitions like a corner shop the way you seem to think. They look to make their money, not from annual profits taken out of a business, but from the increased capital value that accrues from selling a more valuable business later on. John Hall made a fortune from Newcastle because he sold it for a lot more than he paid for it. Similarly the butcher's boy and the Irish betters at Man U; Doug Ellis at Villa, Makin at City and so on.

Secondly, they look for businesses being neglected by the current owners, as in not being invested in. Business is all about differences in opinion about potential value. And the Walker Trust are not Jack Walker, far from it, so I don't see that they will be infallible when it comes to judging the potential value of an asset none of them have ever been interested in. The Trust has a primary duty to preserve its capital and hence is inherently more risk averse than an investor. Owning a football club is a risky business.

Thirdly, venture capitalists invariably micro-manage the ongoing costs, to levels much lower than first class air-fares.

Fourthly, they look to invest capital, of which they have a virtual limitless supply, where they can see opportunities to increase the value of the business.

As Rivercider points out, events proved that this is one where they would have lost value, but that's what these people do - win some and lose some. Leaving their money in the bank is not what they do.

Exactly, thats how they make their cash and with the asking price greatly reduced it could be a decent investment, especially if the profile of the club could be increased globally!

[thenodrog]

Well I want to see the end of the Walker family years because THEY do, as you admit. What is the point of clinging to something you know cannot be?

As to the authenticity of all this, I deliberately haven't commented. It can't be proved, it can't be disproved. Time will tell i guess. If I am being made a fool of,so what? I'll just cop it. As to me forwarding this letter on, the timing has nothing to do with any article in the Times. I got this info last Sunday and, as I said, I've been away till now. Its me asking for it to be resent that has determined the timing. Really these sorts of conspiracy theories have bedevilled this board for years.

I only commented that it was a coincidence. Nothing more to it than that.

Re your point 2, read the letter again properly and spot your mistake. The words "rush to condemn" come to my mind.

Point taken. Rush for an appointment was more on my agenda than rush to condemn.

[Jackson]

Where to begin....

Firstly, the kind of people DW claims to have had behind him rarely look to run their acquisitions like a corner shop the way you seem to think. They look to make their money, not from annual profits taken out of a business, but from the increased capital value that accrues from selling a more valuable business later on. John Hall made a fortune from Newcastle because he sold it for a lot more than he paid for it. Similarly the butcher's boy and the Irish betters at Man U; Doug Ellis at Villa, Makin at City and so on.

Secondly, they look for businesses being neglected by the current owners, as in not being invested in. Business is all about differences in opinion about potential value. And the Walker Trust are not Jack Walker, far from it, so I don't see that they will be infallible when it comes to judging the potential value of an asset none of them have ever been interested in. The Trust has a primary duty to preserve its capital and hence is inherently more risk averse than an investor. Owning a football club is a risky business.

Thirdly, venture capitalists invariably micro-manage the ongoing costs, to levels much lower than first class air-fares.

Fourthly, they look to invest capital, of which they have a virtual limitless supply, where they can see opportunities to increase the value of the business.

As Rivercider points out, events proved that this is one where they would have lost value, but that's what these people do - win some and lose some. Leaving their money in the bank is not what they do.

Christallmighty, something worth reading.

[Tris]

Thirdly, venture capitalists invariably micro-manage the ongoing costs, to levels much lower than first class air-fares.

Effectively criticising the current board for flying first class, I'd be amazed if they do ...

Quite. It's physically impossible, as every airline flying between Manchester and London operates a single cabin offering only. That's been the case for probably 10 years (I think British Midland (as was) were the last to lose their domestic business class offering).

The only time that I can envisage them using private air travel from games, is when a football decision is taken that it's the best way to get the players back home, eg a Wednesday night game at Portsmouth which is followed by a Saturday fixture at Ewood. In which case of course it makes financial sense to make full use of the charter by all the club staff using it.

cutting some pretty loose costs - for example the Directors all fly

first class to away games on the company costs, I didn't envisage taking a

private jet or flying 6 people first class from Manchester to London for

away games when I am happy to bomb it down the M6 and save $6000 a game that

way.

Obviously hasn't seen the M6 in the last 10 years either - or filled a car up at a UK petrol station

[rivercider]

I'm not going to criticize anyone let alone shooting the messenger in 47er. This gets more bizare with every day that goes by. Effectively criticising the current board for flying first class, I'd be amazed if they do, in public does not ring true of someone who wants to invest, neither does corresponding with a random set of supporters via e-mail. If Dan Williams wants to buy he should be talking in the right places, if he needs to go public he should clear it with the Trust and then do an exclusive with the LET.

Well having just spoken to the guy (Dan Williams) to invite him to join Vee-An and I for the Burnley game (since he lives also about 1/2 way between Philadelphia and New York, though about 90 minutes from me in a different part of New Jersey) I can assure you that a/ after having had what he thought was a private e-mail posted by someone on the forum there will be no more corresponding with a random set of supporters and b/ that he has absolutely zero intention of buying. trying to buy, looking to buy or anything else. I think the contents of that e-mail were intended for one person only,

Just an observation, and not a criticism, but do people on this board always focus in on absolute minute detail and ignore the bigger picture? For example someone suggests they will invest nearly $200,000,000 in Rovers and says that they will buy players, invest multi-millions in the stadium and land etc and the response on here, as far as I can see, is to pick out whether cutting Directors' travel costs is a valid EXAMPLE of one of a number of cost savings. It seems to be the same on some match threads too - Rovers will have won a game but people are examining whether a substitution was made at exactly the right minute or if someone's body language looked right. Or the debate over Salgado's signing - let me give you some perspective on that from a foreigner - there are probably 10,000,000 casual American football fans, and I wager 90% of whom have no idea who Blackburn Rovers are but most of whom will have heard of Salgado and if he's costing big money a month, in the bigger picture the statement his signing makes about the club can only be good.

I guess that might be a cultural difference I have to adjust to. I'd look at the investment process and think "well, that would have meant the elimination of all debts for the club and millions more than we have had otherwise for development of infrastructure and players". I would look at Wednesday night and think "excellent, beat Birmingham, 3 points and a win, keeps up the momentum going in to the big game on Sunday". Instead the fixation is on flight schedules (and I don't think the thing was even a criticism of the directors, btw, just an example of how costs could have been cut) and on whether players looked depressed after conceding a goal that in a game they went on to win.

I think in the "big picture" - if you can get past the minutee - life is pretty good as a Rovers fan right now. As that article linked here shows, the financial health of the club is pretty good, might not be a lot of money to spend but at least there is not a pressure to raise money. The team is definitely good enough to stay in the EPL this year and probably next too, and there are no major expenses coming up like loans due, stadium rebuilds needed etc. The executives are good people who love the club and are competent, the manager has a good track record at this level, as the sun shines (or tries to at least) here in Boston today, and I get ready to head home to my lovely wife and kids in Deptford tonight and then the big game on Sunday, the life of a American Rovers Fan is a pretty good one I think.

[gumboots]

You really don't get football and the psyche of the football fan, do you? We have to discuss the minutiae. It's what fans do here. and we have to have something to moan about or where's the discussion. If we all just say "Great, we won. 3 more points and all's well." then where's the fun? Where's the debate? It's this obsessing with minor details that is the hallmark of the British fan. It's how we do football.

[S15]

Get Big Danno a tall frosty one on me. And tell him to stop being such a stingy git and buy the club.

[rivercider]

Where to begin....

Firstly, the kind of people DW claims to have had behind him rarely look to run their acquisitions like a corner shop the way you seem to think. They look to make their money, not from annual profits taken out of a business, but from the increased capital value that accrues from selling a more valuable business later on. John Hall made a fortune from Newcastle because he sold it for a lot more than he paid for it. Similarly the butcher's boy and the Irish betters at Man U; Doug Ellis at Villa, Makin at City and so on.

Secondly, they look for businesses being neglected by the current owners, as in not being invested in. Business is all about differences in opinion about potential value. And the Walker Trust are not Jack Walker, far from it, so I don't see that they will be infallible when it comes to judging the potential value of an asset none of them have ever been interested in. The Trust has a primary duty to preserve its capital and hence is inherently more risk averse than an investor. Owning a football club is a risky business.

Thirdly, venture capitalists invariably micro-manage the ongoing costs, to levels much lower than first class air-fares.

Fourthly, they look to invest capital, of which they have a virtual limitless supply, where they can see opportunities to increase the value of the business.

As Rivercider points out, events proved that this is one where they would have lost value, but that's what these people do - win some and lose some. Leaving their money in the bank is not what they do.

You know EIT, I had not actually realized where my rationales and discussions were going wrong. I had made a rather arrogant and naive assumption that I thank you for pointing out, and perhaps snapped off the handle a little at the likes of PhilipL because I think I assumed that he was coming from a point of understanding the finance world but just trying to make mischief, but as your post makes me realize, perhaps people should understand exactly how guys like Plainfield and, I guess to an extent guys like Dan Williams etc. make their money.

We look to make the best possible returns for our clients and typically beat both the stock markets and what would be on offer from safer investments such as Treasuries or municipal bonds. So say our target is 10% per year return (probably a little higher but let's work with 10%). If we invest $100,000,000 that doesn't mean we take out $10,000,000 a year from the business, as it seems that some critics of the Yankee shysters want to believe. Hedge funds have pretty much ZERO interest in taking cash flows out of a business, which frankly is why we'd probably make very fan friendly investors in sports teams. Instead our goal is to make the business double in value in 7 years or triple in 12. If we can do that, we make our returns. Rovers had that potential at the lower valuation we offered to buy at, not at the higher one the trust was willing to sell at. One poster mocked 500k a year sterling in additional profit from the redeveloped Riverside stand - but $1mm of additional profit translates in to around $12mm in added sales value. Trust us, since it is what we do for a living, there was ample scope to invest some money, make Rovers self financing, and make it an attractive sales proposition. Also since we were just 1/2 of the investment group, and the other half had less profit motive and a more long term view, the opportunity for us to get our returns on a safe investment had a decent risk profile for us. I think the analogy of the local store is a good one - Plainfield and, presumably whoever the next Rovers owners are - are not going to be dropping round to take some cash out of the register every week to cover investment.

I know the Jack Walker subject is emotive for Rovers fans, and I was not a fan during his lifetime so will try to tread carefully, but the man who loved Rovers and was willing to wager a decent percentage of his fortune to see the club succeed - he is in a better place now with a great view of every game, but his trust are a different animal with different mandates. Indeed their motivations are pretty much the same as Plainfield's, Arab oil billionaires or whoever buys Rovers next - preserve capital, maximize value. Even as reluctant owners, the trust was pumping money IN to the club as recently as 2008.

So whether from ignorance or sheer mischief, this fear mongering that someone is going to come along, sell off the players and the stadium and leave a shell behind is sheer nonsense, that is not how investors work, it's not how businessmen work, and it's no more how a hedge fund works than a Channel Island blind trust does.

Lunch break over. Have a nice day.

[rivercider]

You really don't get football and the psyche of the football fan, do you? We have to discuss the minutiae. It's what fans do here. and we have to have something to moan about or where's the discussion. If we all just say "Great, we won. 3 more points and all's well." then where's the fun? Where's the debate? It's this obsessing with minor details that is the hallmark of the British fan. It's how we do football.

First to admit that I am here TRYING to get the psyche of the football fan. I am just saying enjoy the fun of winning more. You're a fan of Blackburn Rovers FC - do you know how absolutely awesome that is, and how cool that makes you? You are one of the loyal fans of a town club in the North West of England, you have not sold out for the sake of glory to some over-leveraged corporate giant (Liverpool, Man U) or some London-based ticket printing machine backed by Russian "entrepreneurs". You support a team that has history, an identity, that is the heart of the town it is located in. It's the Green Bay Packers, the Oakland Athletics and the Utah Jazz all rolled in to one AND it has history that American teams cannot even imagine - you were playing football in Blackburn when my ancestors (well, not mine, they came over from Hong Kong in 1984, but Americans) were shooting each other to free slaves.

Take a moment to realize that not only is all of the above true, but that somehow without selling out the soul of the club, and without losing the identity of "The Rovers", you have managed to spend most of the last decade and a half in the best football league in the world.

I am not saying don't whine or over-analyze, I am just saying perhaps do it in the perspective of how great the bigger picture really is. I remember being on the flight over in 2007 and we were discussing Rovers and one of our group was talking about the worldwide potential of the Rovers brand, and I will never forget Dan Williams saying "don't make a big thing out of that". Justin I think it was said "why not?" and Williams said "because I don't think Rovers are ready to accept that they are a big club, people in Blackburn would rather you gave them better pies in the ground than better commercial exposure in Guangzhou. First one is important, second one is, well nice if it happens, but irrelevant to the fan base" He was spot on, but my point is that Rovers IS a big club and I wonder if you realize how many millions of people outside England are completely jealous not of the Man U fans because anyone can be a Man U fan but of the TRUE fans of teams like Rovers, Wigan, West Bromwich, Newcastle and, yes, even Burnley.

So absolutely sir, I take your point completely and unreservedly to heart - I don't understand the psyche of the football fan, but I am trying to learn, I really am. I just hope I can retain the optimism at the same time.

[gumboots]

First to admit that I am here TRYING to get the psyche of the football fan. I am just saying enjoy the fun of winning more. You're a fan of Blackburn Rovers FC - do you know how absolutely awesome that is, and how cool that makes you? You are one of the loyal fans of a town club in the North West of England, you have not sold out for the sake of glory to some over-leveraged corporate giant (Liverpool, Man U) or some London-based ticket printing machine backed by Russian "entrepreneurs". You support a team that has history, an identity, that is the heart of the town it is located in. It's the Green Bay Packers, the Oakland Athletics and the Utah Jazz all rolled in to one AND it has history that American teams cannot even imagine - you were playing football in Blackburn when my ancestors (well, not mine, they came over from Hong Kong in 1984, but Americans) were shooting each other to free slaves.

Take a moment to realize that not only is all of the above true, but that somehow without selling out the soul of the club, and without losing the identity of "The Rovers", you have managed to spend most of the last decade and a half in the best football league in the world.

I am not saying don't whine or over-analyze, I am just saying perhaps do it in the perspective of how great the bigger picture really is. I remember being on the flight over in 2007 and we were discussing Rovers and one of our group was talking about the worldwide potential of the Rovers brand, and I will never forget Dan Williams saying "don't make a big thing out of that". Justin I think it was said "why not?" and Williams said "because I don't think Rovers are ready to accept that they are a big club, people in Blackburn would rather you gave them better pies in the ground than better commercial exposure in Guangzhou. First one is important, second one is, well nice if it happens, but irrelevant to the fan base" He was spot on, but my point is that Rovers IS a big club and I wonder if you realize how many millions of people outside England are completely jealous not of the Man U fans because anyone can be a Man U fan but of the TRUE fans of teams like Rovers, Wigan, West Bromwich, Newcastle and, yes, even Burnley.

So absolutely sir, I take your point completely and unreservedly to heart - I don't understand the psyche of the football fan, but I am trying to learn, I really am. I just hope I can retain the optimism at the same time.

Not to be nitpicking but it's Madam

[broadsword]

Well having just spoken to the guy (Dan Williams) to invite him to join Vee-An and I for the Burnley game (since he lives also about 1/2 way between Philadelphia and New York, though about 90 minutes from me in a different part of New Jersey) I can assure you that a/ after having had what he thought was a private e-mail posted by someone on the forum there will be no more corresponding with a random set of supporters and b/ that he has absolutely zero intention of buying. trying to buy, looking to buy or anything else. I think the contents of that e-mail were intended for one person only,

He's decided to banjax any potential future deal on the strength of one indiscreet Rovers fan on this forum?

What really did he expect giving out his details to a group of people he'd never met and divulging what must presumably be confidential information?

Seems a very strange way for someone who's worth zillions to behave. If he was going to put another deal together then he'd play his cards very close to his chest I guess.

[CrazyIvan]

So absolutely sir, I take your point completely and unreservedly to heart - I don't understand the psyche of the football fan, but I am trying to learn, I really am. I just hope I can retain the optimism at the same time.

I'm a football fan who isn't a negative, look at the worst possible scenario and expect it to happen person. I'm not exactly the opposite but I'm a positive glass half full kind of person. Rovers, and the north in general, have a large proportion of fans and people who live to moan or look at the downside first, expecting it to happen. It's almost bred in at birth! It's comical and amusing at times but ultimately frustrating. Don't lose the optimism and I think your larger picture view is one a lot of fans should think about for a while. The small-minded/closed mind-set of some fans has much to do with the cynicism and negativity that comes out on here and also on the terraces. I do wish some people would take a look at the bigger picture sometimes and think how good we actually do have it. We're a good, well run club in the best league in the world and we're staying here in the top league for the longest time since the 1930's (I think that's rihg... lol).

[ABBEY]

my dads bigger than your dad and i can wave my willy higher than you.