[Archived] Rovers Might Have Been Sold?

[jim mk2]

Souness had many fine attributes, but he was also dirtier than anyone in English football at that time, and I mean anyone. Allardyce was tough, but then 1970s English football was a hard game.

Most players in the world would pale in comparison to Souness and Dalglish, two of the all-time greats, so the the comparison with Allardyce is daft anyway.

[Antgrad]

I feel a little tingly awaiting my first "Dingle Derby"

You may feel a "little tingly" but I'm feeling a little bit sick that should the unspeakable happen we will never hear the last of it.

According to the bookies we're not even favourites to win.

[jannerman]

Slang is a great thing, although not always universally understood by all, I've spent a few great nights drinking with Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc, once we agree on being "celtic brothers" although I still live in england technically, but it usually takes a few beers to "tune" in the accent/slang

You'll be able to say all sorts of stuff to ppl over there and they won't have a clue what you're on about - and not in a Guy Richie cockeney-geezer kind of way....

Re: Souness, didn't he use to be a bit rough in the tackle during his managerial years? istr stories to that effect.

BTW, has the club been sold yet?

If no-ones taking can't we just print our own money with Salgado on it?

[Ozz]

I feel a little tingly awaiting my first "Dingle Derby" (the other game wasn't shown live over here) so this is how I imagine being a fan feels before every home game you get to attend (lucky sods...???)

It's not a Dingle Derby, that implies a game between two teams of Dingles.

And the feeling I get before this match is 100 times more than any other I can remember. Takes me back to a time before money ruined the game.

[Shaddy]

Well at the time I thought he was a dirty sod. But then they all were compared to now.

Anyway, for the benefit of our American hedge fund friend to whom I addressed the original comment, an effective 2nd division bruiser is a long way from the pedigree of Kenny and Souness.

In a playing sense only! That "long way" doesn't automatically apply to team management. Dalglish and Souness the managers have the runs on the board there, but it doesn't mean that Allardyce is incapable of matching their efforts, in the context of where the club stands today.

Wenger was probably a "long way" from George Graham in terms of playing career, but his record as a manager exceeds Graham's very good record by some distance.

[47er]

More fool him I guess, though personally I think meeting with people (and I know who he's talking about) and floating an idea of at least thinking about taking a look is a long way from being involved in a deal, but yes, I think perhaps he was assuming that, as I would, an e-mail I sent to someone privately would not find its way on to a forum but that might be naive or maybe there are different etiquettes about such things in England, here a private e-mail is just that. Either way I see your point.

More importantly, I think Banjax is the greatest word ever invented and the fact that after 4 years at Berkeley and 2 years at Harvard Business School I had never heard it speaks volumes about the American education system. I will now use Banjax at every available opportunity (along with my other new words including bellend, willy, butty, dingle etc). I also know now that it is a football pitch inside a ground, not a "socca" field inside a stadium.

See, I am getting there

(love that this forum edits socca - spelled properly - to football)

What-so I've breached etiquette? I would have thought that sending an email like that to a confessed Rovers nut would be highly unlikely not to be shared with other Rovers fans. Its not as if he added "and don't tell anyone". Further he wrote to me after I'd posted info on here and asked for more. Hope this doesn't turn nasty because he seemed a very nice bloke. I only wrote to him in the first place because I was invited to and I said as such on here. I also wrote from the point of view that, based on info from Rivercider the guy could do with some support because the deal had been wrongly rejected by the Trust and fans on here had blamed him.

Anyway my final take on all this because without new info we just have to await events or non-events. I go right back to the start when I said this is either an elaborate hoax or its genuine. There's no in-between, no conspiracy because we are too small in the scheme of things to have any possible value. If its a hoax I agree with someone that its likely to be Burnley inspired, given the timing. In which case "big deal" because they'll still be relegated. On the other hand how did Rivercider get hold of detailed information which Nicko has authenticated if he wasn't an insider? Speaking of Nicko I hope he's furiously digging!

Some things are strange about it all, I agree with those who say you would not imagine a multi-millionaire having the inclination to share such issues with strangers on the net. Still you never know and I ran with it to see where it led. I hope it leads to a takeover because, one thing is certain, the more desperate the owners become to sell, the more chance we have of being shafted. The one option we do not have is "to stay as we are".

[Shaddy]

Most players in the world would pale in comparison to Souness and Dalglish, two of the all-time greats, so the the comparison with Allardyce is daft anyway.

That must have been hard to admit about Souness, Jim. I commend you on it.

[TimmyJimmy]

I have learned more in 2 weeks on here (I actually opened this account for general use way back when but only started reading and posting two weeks ago) than I did in the first 3 years as a fan.

Hey rivercider, welcome onboard. Your emails just started to appear on this thread as I left the country (am in LA right now) so just been reading intermittently. Love the detail and the perspective you bring. I'm just soaking up the last few rays of the day on the beach so have had the time to read back a few pages and catch up with the dialogue.

Not something I'd normally 'fess up to back home, but after a nice few Veuve Clicquots under the LA sun - stuff it, I'll admit to also being an investment banker. Your comments about the motivations for investment are right on the money of course and it points to the fact that we are actually better off if acquired by a management fund who have a medium term view than by some individual who would probably be looking for a quick turnaround. Even better when as you say the other partner had a longer investment horizon.

Surprised that Mr Williams has totally dismissed the opportunity to reassess. A good deal is a good deal is it not, the price has come down and you acquire the same product in better circumstances (new TV money). He's a fan - and judging from the disclosed email he has a sense of humour and understands the psyche of the Rovers fans on this board. You should call him again and rev him up a bit.

One comment I noted was the one about Dan William's immediate position on branding. I've been banging on about this for a while now. It's so obvious that this is a viable route to cashflow generation and whilst not the primary concern in the short term worldwide brand recognition is going to be important when changing ownership down the line (say 7 to 12 years out). I loved your comments on the positives of 'being Blackburn Rovers' and that these were often unrecognised by the local supporters.

We have a great great club and it's good to welcome new supporters who recognise how rare it is to still have a BRFC around in the top flight of world football. If we just stopped for a while and lifted our heads up to look about I'm sure we would be surprised to see the potential fan base yet to be tapped.

Here in LA a taxi driver asked me where I was from and guessing he would never have heard of Blackburn I said north west england near Manchester. He asked if I was a ManU supporter, I said no, and he said that's "good otherwise I would have thrown you out". We went on to have a really good talk about Rovers and the EPL in general. This guy and many more like him would be turned on the the Rovers if only someone could work out how to market to them effectively.

Tell Dan to dump the negative thoughts and to look at the opportunity again. He can add a lot of value - and we'll never be so cheap again!!

[Paul]

Well having just spoken to the guy (Dan Williams) to invite him to join Vee-An and I for the Burnley game (since he lives also about 1/2 way between Philadelphia and New York, though about 90 minutes from me in a different part of New Jersey) I can assure you that a/ after having had what he thought was a private e-mail posted by someone on the forum there will be no more corresponding with a random set of supporters and b/ that he has absolutely zero intention of buying. trying to buy, looking to buy or anything else. I think the contents of that e-mail were intended for one person only,

Which is somewhat contradicted by the content of the e-mail. Football fans look at the minutiae for various reasons - some to support their dreams and desires others to try and detect the truth of the situation.

Just an observation, and not a criticism, but do people on this board always focus in on absolute minute detail and ignore the bigger picture? For example someone suggests they will invest nearly $200,000,000 in Rovers and says that they will buy players, invest multi-millions in the stadium and land etc and the response on here, as far as I can see, is to pick out whether cutting Directors' travel costs is a valid EXAMPLE of one of a number of cost savings. It seems to be the same on some match threads too - Rovers will have won a game but people are examining whether a substitution was made at exactly the right minute or if someone's body language looked right. Or the debate over Salgado's signing - let me give you some perspective on that from a foreigner - there are probably 10,000,000 casual American football fans, and I wager 90% of whom have no idea who Blackburn Rovers are but most of whom will have heard of Salgado and if he's costing big money a month, in the bigger picture the statement his signing makes about the club can only be good.

I, like many other fans, have met John Williams and Tom Finn, while they may enjoy it they are not "first class travel sort of people." Both would see it as uneccessary and unjustifiable when they have spent years preaching the need for Rovers to make best use of every penny. The example doesn't stack up and has been pointed out is impossible to achieve on scheduled airlines. Not unlike the comment about driving down the M6, wrong time of day and you're looking at 6-7 hours to get to Portsmouth. Anyone who has met JW and TF would know first class is out of character unless a justifiable commercial decision.

As a young man, 30+ years ago, I was involved in a, then, high tech company and three rounds of PE funding via the British Rail and British Coal Pension Funds, 3i's and British Tar, a Manchester based plc. Two of those rounds I was jointly responsible for. It was an interesting experience. I well remember the remarks when myself and two others from the company arrived 30-40 minutes late for a 9.00am London meeting. We drove to save the train fare - we didn't make the mistake again.

I fully agree with EITs definition of how such investors make money but I also know they are unlikely to conduct any such business on a message board, to allow their private details to be made public, etc. So yes I question the minutiae because there lays the detail which gives credence or otherwise to these posts.

As for Salgado and 10,000,000 American fans, sorry we are not in that situation. I know plenty of people (MU fans) who question Park's place in the Utd team and the reasoning behind it. As you have said yourself Rovers do not work that way. The discussion is / was football related. We sell a very good left back to plug a £5m hole in the budget only to go out and buy an ageing Spanish "star" who has played 16 games in two years at his club. This is what raises questions not the impact on 10,000,000 Americans. I understand the logic you apply but this is Blackburn Rovers not Manchester United.

I guess that might be a cultural difference I have to adjust to. I'd look at the investment process and think "well, that would have meant the elimination of all debts for the club and millions more than we have had otherwise for development of infrastructure and players". I would look at Wednesday night and think "excellent, beat Birmingham, 3 points and a win, keeps up the momentum going in to the big game on Sunday". Instead the fixation is on flight schedules (and I don't think the thing was even a criticism of the directors, btw, just an example of how costs could have been cut) and on whether players looked depressed after conceding a goal that in a game they went on to win.

I think in the "big picture" - if you can get past the minutee - life is pretty good as a Rovers fan right now. As that article linked here shows, the financial health of the club is pretty good, might not be a lot of money to spend but at least there is not a pressure to raise money. The team is definitely good enough to stay in the EPL this year and probably next too, and there are no major expenses coming up like loans due, stadium rebuilds needed etc. The executives are good people who love the club and are competent, the manager has a good track record at this level, as the sun shines (or tries to at least) here in Boston today, and I get ready to head home to my lovely wife and kids in Deptford tonight and then the big game on Sunday, the life of a American Rovers Fan is a pretty good one I think.

You're mixing up three different things. The investment side I would agree with both in terms of the plan DW is said to have had and the current financial situation. The "big picture" if we are talking financial security is probably OK. However we are football fans. Your statement about the Birmingham game is very true but ignores other things. The football was dire, the entertainment factor was pretty poor. On the substitution thing we all want Dunn playing on Sunday, he was moving heavily 10-12 minutes before he got clattered by Carr and Fergusson, he should not have been on the pitch when he was badly fouled. I think the manager should know this. As for staying in the EPL? Certainly this year but as for next you have to watch this team to realise it is not far away from struggling badly.

The big dilemma, if this is the right word, is the financial situation. Overseas investors have distorted and wrecked the competitiveness of the EPL. Our aim is just to stay in the league because without Sky money Rovers, along with perhaps 10-12 other clubs are a busted flush. The big four now snaffle up every half decent footballer available and these players earn so much they are happy NOT to play because after sitting around for 3-4 years they are financially secure for life. The team is screaming for investment yet we have to sell our better players to mainatin the budget while probably paying out the same in wages to a player who has no sell on value. We have no creativity other than Dunn (substitution again!) and no likelihood of buying any. We can't truely afford the wage bill let alone the transfer cost. So while the club's financial situation may be good within the business, in the context of the EPL we are in real trouble.

I raise questions because I do not know if we should trust the information you have posted and its source. It's a genuine question in my mind. If it's all true then it is very interesting. The minutiae as you call it does not add up and because of this raises questions for me and others. The devil is in the detail. I'm not a sheep......despite what some might say

[philipl]

Platini's rumoured changes to rules about injectng cash into the game are more sensible than I had anticipated.n

Limiting owners to unlimited expenditure on development and infrastructure and c£10m per year on the football team makes sense and could potentially benefit a club like Rovers. Unlike previous rules which had been circulated, these would impact the Spanish and English giants equally whilst not disallowing the sort of contributions made by Jack Walker and the Trust or Randy Lerner at Villa for that matter.

[Balwer]

I am disappointed, in hindsight, that no deal was reached with Dan Williams.

With Plainfield however? I am pleased. No wonder rivercider has left, seems that 3/4 of the team has, including senior management, and they can't even afford to pay the rent.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/26/news/companies/plainfield_asset_hedge_fund.fortune/

[nicko]

I am disappointed, in hindsight, that no deal was reached with Dan Williams.

With Plainfield however? I am pleased. No wonder rivercider has left, seems that 3/4 of the team has, including senior management, and they can't even afford to pay the rent.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/26/news/companies/plainfield_asset_hedge_fund.fortune/

Plenty of talk.

But still no money.

Tedious.

[jim mk2]

. As for staying in the EPL? . The devil is in the detail.

Detail is important to me too, so why do you call the Premier League the "EPL" ? I can understand why overseas supporters might (wrongly) call it the "EPL" but there is no reason why British fans should not call it but any name other than its correct name, which is the Barclays Premier League.

[Antgrad]

I've had a couple of emails from Dan Williams since this began and its just an thought but where is he meant to be at the moment? The time on the emails has been 4 hours ahead of us in the UK which suggests Mauritius, Oman, Seychelles, United Arab Emirates, that sort of area.

[philipl]

I kept off this thread after rivercider's bit of fun because I found out too much.

I will leave it to others to keep on digging but no regrets about anything I have posted.

[gumboots]

I've had a couple of emails from Dan Williams since this began and its just an thought but where is he meant to be at the moment? The time on the emails has been 4 hours ahead of us in the UK which suggests Mauritius, Oman, Seychelles, United Arab Emirates, that sort of area.

Or you've been had in some way?

[CrazyIvan]

Which is somewhat contradicted by the content of the e-mail. Football fans look at the minutiae for various reasons - some to support their dreams and desires others to try and detect the truth of the situation.

...

So while the club's financial situation may be good within the business, in the context of the EPL we are in real trouble.

I raise questions because I do not know if we should trust the information you have posted and its source. It's a genuine question in my mind. If it's all true then it is very interesting. The minutiae as you call it does not add up and because of this raises questions for me and others. The devil is in the detail. I'm not a sheep......despite what some might say

I think you are way overstating the negatives here by saying this club is a potential busted flush. We have a lot of talented and excellent youngsters coming through. It's a young team with some experience that is currently very mid-table and not going down.

[Antgrad]

Or you've been had in some way?

Not suggesting I haven't which is why I'm asking the question.

[gumboots]

Not suggesting I haven't which is why I'm asking the question.

Sorry - it wasn't meant as a dig but I still don't swallow this whole story and am surprised that more people haven't been a bit more cautious. I know the guy did provide details which nicko confirmed but the whole thing just smells odd to me. If it had come up in a work situation how many of us would have just accepted this guy at face value. We'd have been on windup alert from the start, but because it's not an area many of us know much about we're being sucked in to conversations with a guy who may or may not be exactly who he says he is with exactly the motives he says he has who then gives out an e mail address which means that more people correspond with another guy who may or may not be who he says he is or may be the same guy accessing both email addresses - I know how many e mail addresses I could open and how many existing ones I could access and I'm not a computer geek. Nothing to get excited about anyway but decidedly odd.

[47er]

Sorry - it wasn't meant as a dig but I still don't swallow this whole story and am surprised that more people haven't been a bit more cautious. I know the guy did provide details which nicko confirmed but the whole thing just smells odd to me. If it had come up in a work situation how many of us would have just accepted this guy at face value. We'd have been on windup alert from the start, but because it's not an area many of us know much about we're being sucked in to conversations with a guy who may or may not be exactly who he says he is with exactly the motives he says he has who then gives out an e mail address which means that more people correspond with another guy who may or may not be who he says he is or may be the same guy accessing both email addresses - I know how many e mail addresses I could open and how many existing ones I could access and I'm not a computer geek. Nothing to get excited about anyway but decidedly odd.

You must be a tiny bit curious though? Agree that its very quirky. I don't think anyone has just accepted it at face value.

[thenodrog]

Not Allardyce though. He was a skill-less, lower league hatchet-man who spent most of his career at our dear neighbours, Bolton Wanderers, but he did have a moustache. Perhaps 1970's footballers moustaches were proportional to their egos?

You think he was a skillful player?

I accept he is getting us results, but please don't rewrite history to further the praise of your hero.

Bloody tedious. You are insinuating that SA is in some way deficient as a manager because he was a 2nd Div centre half most of his career. What the hell does it matter? Oh wait.... I get it... It's a simple mud slinging exercise isn't it?

Tell you what EiT........ Lets examine a little managerial history then in order to blast holes beneath the waterline of your increasingly juvenile, anti-allardyce vendetta.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article394259.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/arsenal/article389672.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/chelsea/article391738.ece

I suppose their cv's wouldn't be good enough for you would they?

[DanLad]

It's not a Dingle Derby, that implies a game between two teams of Dingles.

And the feeling I get before this match is 100 times more than any other I can remember. Takes me back to a time before money ruined the game.

Can't blame Rivercider for this. There's a thread called 'Dingle Derby' on this site after all.

Rivercider - 'Lucky sod' is perfectly acceptable and no-one would bat an eye in any pub around the land if you said it (depending on the circumstances, obviously!). If you want to get more local, though, you can go with 'jammy sod' Jammy means lucky.

Very interesting stuff in this thread, BTW!

[gumboots]

You must be a tiny bit curious though? Agree that its very quirky. I don't think anyone has just accepted it at face value.

Curious but in a very sceptical way. I'd love to know what's going on and more intersetingly why, but I wouldn't put myself out to find out because I still have the feeling there's some kind of other agenda going on here and I don't really want to be part of it. I'd rather stand back and observe and wait to see.

[Paul]

Detail is important to me too, so why do you call the Premier League the "EPL" ? I can understand why overseas supporters might (wrongly) call it the "EPL" but there is no reason why British fans should not call it but any name other than its correct name, which is the Barclays Premier League.

I used EPL, probably subconsciously, because the person I'm in discussion with used the name. Personally I usually refer to it as the PL or Premier League, never the Barclays Premeir League.

[Paul]

I think you are way overstating the negatives here by saying this club is a potential busted flush. We have a lot of talented and excellent youngsters coming through. It's a young team with some experience that is currently very mid-table and not going down.

I feel you have misunderstood me. I'm talking financially, the club along with many in the Barclays Premier League, to give it the correct name, is almost entirely reliant on TV money. Without this cash flow the club could not afford the players wages. Many people have commented on how important it is to remain in the PL from a purely financial view. I'd agree entirely. If we were to be relegated where would the money come from? In this sense many clubs in the PL would be a busted flush without Sky money and one has to wonder what would happen were Sky to lose interest? Though as has been pointed out the two organistaions, Sky and the PL, may be entirely reliant on each other.