[Archived] Rovers Might Have Been Sold?

[47er]

This is utterly depressing to read. I can't believe how far some have their heads in the sand. What is the point of saying we are better off as we are when the Walker family is ABSOLUTELY DETERMINED TO SELL THE CLUB? Its as if you don't want to face reality.

And Kamy, why are you so confident about the protection afforded to the club from Jack's will? Have you read it? If Jack was so careful as to place strictures in his will against a "bad sale" then surely he would have ensured we wouldn't be left "without a pot to p**s in" (good phrase Fergie) while the family still owned us wouldn't he?

If they get the asking price they are off and Rovers are sold. Anything else is wishful thinking of the wrong kind because if we are not better financed then we are down and not coming back. Might take 2 seasons, might take three but its inevitable.

[PAFELL]

This is utterly depressing to read. I can't believe how far some have their heads in the sand. What is the point of saying we are better off as we are when the Walker family is ABSOLUTELY DETERMINED TO SELL THE CLUB? Its as if you don't want to face reality.

And Kamy, why are you so confident about the protection afforded to the club from Jack's will? Have you read it? If Jack was so careful as to place strictures in his will against a "bad sale" then surely he would have ensured we wouldn't be left "without a pot to p**s in" (good phrase Fergie) while the family still owned us wouldn't he?

If they get the asking price they are off and Rovers are sold. Anything else is wishful thinking of the wrong kind because if we are not better financed then we are down and not coming back. Might take 2 seasons, might take three but its inevitable.

The reality is that the rules of that trust has protected the club. But with new owners, the trust is over with as would be the protection. therefore the club has to be careful.

[Fife Rover]

This is utterly depressing to read. I can't believe how far some have their heads in the sand. What is the point of saying we are better off as we are when the Walker family is ABSOLUTELY DETERMINED TO SELL THE CLUB? Its as if you don't want to face reality.

And Kamy, why are you so confident about the protection afforded to the club from Jack's will? Have you read it? If Jack was so careful as to place strictures in his will against a "bad sale" then surely he would have ensured we wouldn't be left "without a pot to p**s in" (good phrase Fergie) while the family still owned us wouldn't he?

If they get the asking price they are off and Rovers are sold. Anything else is wishful thinking of the wrong kind because if we are not better financed then we are down and not coming back. Might take 2 seasons, might take three but its inevitable.

It is not a question of "heads in sand"; it IS a question of Jacks Will and Trust Deed being drawn up under Jersey Law, and Nobody on God's Earth can change that without the agreement of the Jersey Court. I would have thought that with Jack's Will setting out all the criteria that have to be met for Rovers to be sold, then that is the ONLY way that the club can be sold. It is not something that Jack did not forsee and allow for, but rather something that clearly lays down the requirements and conditions that MUST be met. IE NON-NEGOTIABLE, and I would imagine that if it is what Jack wants then it will be something that all of us supporters would welcome as well

[67splitscreen]

I'm sure someone will correct me, did cider......rover as it????? not say that there was nothing in the deed that was realy off putting in general to them/potential owner.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

It is NOT 'inevitable' that Rovers will be relegated.If so,you can proclaim the same damn thing about ten other clubs in this league!

We are a well run and healthy football club both on and off the pitch.We CAN compete with most of the bottom ten or so clubs in this league without plunging us into unnecessary debt,this HAS been realised.The money's we recieve from sky/tv etc every season we are in this league(regardless of league position)are ensuring that healthy status quo.Yes,we would all like a little more coin for transfers but can we afford to upset the balance of the club which at present is excellent?.

How many of these football 'investors' have seen a return from their purchase?,what happens when they become bored and pull the plug?

How 'attractive' are we really to outside investors?.............................

[joey_big_nose]

If they get the asking price they are off and Rovers are sold. Anything else is wishful thinking of the wrong kind because if we are not better financed then we are down and not coming back. Might take 2 seasons, might take three but its inevitable.

Well this is perhaps true, but I think what you are not appreciating a more massive problem. As it stand we are well financed, well managed and could get relegated and survive well enough if we manage to sell our players on higher wages. If new owners come in who assent to increased expenditure we will raise the stakes as the wage bill will go up and also, potentially, the debt.

It may be in the long run that it is better to go down on an even footing and plod along rather than roll the dice and risk the future of the club. Not very exciting I know, but who really has done better than us out of increased investment? Portsmouth, Newcastle, Sunderland? It is a mixed bag where the risks are enormous, especially for a club like us where we have very few assets to be honest.

[philipl]

Fife is hitting the nail on the head with his research. There is one other thing which is totally certain- the last revision of Jack's Will happened in 2000 (or earlier).

It always puzzles me that people find shades of grey difficult to understand and 47er I am addressing you.

The Trust is in no form or shape the enemy or the baddy in all this. They are looking at a situation in which the PL monies have no relationship to the finances that were contemplated just ten short years ago. And that change of course primarily concerns the multiples of millions players earn. They are the direct beneficiaries of any football finance be it from PLCs, Americans, Thai PMs, Sheikhs or old fashioned families like the Walkers or Moores.

Why would any rich Brit impoverish themselves to make a rich overseas player even richer??? It is a totally different equation to the one Jack entered twenty years ago when he swamped the very grateful existing Rovers shareholders with new capital.

The situation is simple- the Trust have loaned the club another £5m (remember that loan potentially puts Rovers outside the UEFA rules on 1 August 2012 even though Rovers were run at a profit last season). So although it is not Man City munificence or Pompey/West Ham lunacy, it is better than what is happening to the Prem largesse at Burnley or the net withdrawals looming large at Liverpool and Man U.

The Trust have also installed and entrusted the best all round management in the PL at Rovers.

However, the Trustees know that this is now a different world neither they nor the Trust deeds ever envisaged and so they are willing to step aside if anyone comes forwards who can assure them of Rovers' long term well being and put more into the club than they are able to do so given they are directed by a document prepared when football numbers were four times smaller than they are going to be shortly.

Putting this in context, the money Jack allocated to make up the difference for Rovers' disadvantage at the gates compared with Man U's gates- £3m per season- will not even pay Guti's costs and is now about £150m per season less than the difference between Rovers' non-media earning power and Man U's.

This is not the Trust being desperate to sell but it is the Trust being desperate to do the very best by Rovers, the fans and the town of Blackburn.

Now step back and my opinion is that 90% of all the new owners who have entered football in the last decade have been failures- some little failure, some abject failures and the likes of Man U, Liverpool, Leeds, Portsmouth, West Ham and Duffen at Hull absolute steaming catastrophies. By the law of averages, there are going to be 9 of the ilk of Paul Duffen and Thaksin ringing up Rothschild before there is one whom the Trust can even remotely consider. And because of Blackburn's limitations as a town, nobody who is looking to make a commercial return out of being at Rovers can be a better owner than the Walker Trust because they are not making a profit and are not even claiming their expenses for looking after the club.

That is why I am pretty certain those anticipating an early change of ownership are not going to see one and Kamy is 100% right when commenting that what Bobby G is hearing will disqualify whoever he is talking to if they take that line within earshot of the Rothschilds or Walker Trust. Anyone who has read my previous posts on the subject will see I am being totally consistent with what I have written previously and relying on material which has gone into the public domain in the ten years since Jack Walker fell ill.

[ada2020]

Well this is perhaps true, but I think what you are not appreciating a more massive problem. As it stand we are well financed, well managed and could get relegated and survive well enough if we manage to sell our players on higher wages. If new owners come in who assent to increased expenditure we will raise the stakes as the wage bill will go up and also, potentially, the debt.

It may be in the long run that it is better to go down on an even footing and plod along rather than roll the dice and risk the future of the club. Not very exciting I know, but who really has done better than us out of increased investment? Portsmouth, Newcastle, Sunderland? It is a mixed bag where the risks are enormous, especially for a club like us where we have very few assets to be honest.

technically the new UEFA ruling on debt would forbid any new owners from increasing the wage bill above our net earnings. The new rules are designed to prevent another Portsmouth or Leeds scenario, this will probably make us even less atractive for potential buyers, as already discussed the fan base has little potential to grow above what it is now.

[Tris]

If Jack was so careful as to place strictures in his will against a "bad sale" then surely he would have ensured we wouldn't be left "without a pot to p**s in" (good phrase Fergie) while the family still owned us wouldn't he?

Whatever financial support for the club he did ensure Rovers were left with, was put in place in a different era.

The best young players in the world changed clubs for 5 - 10 million quid, instead of the 30 to 80 million today.

Over the same period player wage inflation in the PL has not doubled or trebled - it has multiplied by a factor of 10 or more.

Global TV income has gone through the roof beyond what anyone could have expected in the late 1990s.

Jack Walker would have had to be a clairvoyant to foresee the landscape altering to that extent -- and even if he had, do people really think he would have left behind an arrangement which escalated the Walkers' financial support to the club to keep it in line?? To do that would have meant he put in jeopardy the entire family fortune and business empire, just to keep Rovers competing at the level we had become used to at the time.

What was put in place was generous but entirely sensible, and along with prudent stewardship at the top of the club has helped Rovers play in Europe 3 times this decade, along with 6 cup semi finals and respectable league placings more often than not.

To define that as being "without a pot to p**s in" is at best naive, and not far off being ungrateful.

[nicko]

Look very carefully at the posts on this subject...and you will find one of the potential interested parties...I knew someone with inside knowledge would break the silence at some point...

[Ricky]

The return of dan Williams??

[nicko]

The return of dan Williams??

No.

[67splitscreen]

Look very carefully at the posts on this subject...and you will find one of the potential interested parties...I knew someone with inside knowledge would break the silence at some point...

Turning over a ..... leaf .

[Hughesy]

To all those who are concerned that the JW Trustees are likely to alter their "new owner acceptance criteria" because they are desparate to "escape" I can tell you to forget that scenario; it is simply NOT going to happen. And the reason that I am so sure is that some time ago I was persuaded to look into the rules applying to Trusts made in Jersey, and I can assure you all that Jersey Trusts are virtually unchangable however much the Trustees may want change.

The ONLY way that any aspect of a Jersey Trust can be changed in any way at all is by applying to the court in Jersey, and the court that was involved in drawing up the trust in the first place has a bounden duty to act as if it (the Court) is actually the originator of the Trust Deed (i.e. in this case Jack Walker). In other words it interprets every single clause in the same way as if Jack was sitting there listening to the request for change, but also with a pre-set view that there would have to be a VERY good and overriding reason for allowing any change at all, and certainly NOT allowing it if suspects that Jack would not whole heartedly agree.

Jersey Trusts are different to English Tusts in as well as being VERY tax efficient, they are also set up and controlled in a different way. The first and major difference is the way I have described above, but the other difference is that the person making the Trust has to appear in court themselves and explain to a judge ALL the clauses in the Trust and fully clarify what he means and what criteria (if any) have to met for any change to be allowed. It is also tied in with the persons Will which will also refer to the Trust and what has to done with the Trust, who the Trustees are to be and how the whole thing is to be administered. ALL of this is sealed by the court and becomes set in Jersey Law.

That is it as briefly as I can put it; obviously there is a lot more to it but that is the essence of it.

Thanks for that fife - learn something every day!

[Hughesy]

There is one draw-back, which may end up being a deal-breaker. We have a "very small fan base", I am told. Obviously this isnt news to any of us.

Any ideas where the 'Asian' bidder if from? Would he perhaps be able to connect with the local minority communities? And potentially tap into a much wider market for us to attract fans from!?

[Exiled in Toronto]

I'm with 47er on this. The status quo is that the owners have us up for sale. Why? Because they want to sell, i.e. they are not happy with the status quo and wish to change it. And I for one don't blame them. Jack, GRHS, has been dead for ten years now. Just how long do you expect his heirs to be saddled with his hobby? Another 10 years, 50 years? Forever?

We're a Premier League club with Premier League income and Premier League global exposure; there could not be a better time to send us back into the real world that every other club operates in, which these days includes owners who aren't lifelong fans. If you want local ownersthen be prepared to be supporting a local, lower-league club, not a member of a league which has global appeal.

All those quoting alleged clauses in Jack's will, how many of you would have predicted 3 years ago that we would would have been put up for sale, not just to test the water, but up for sale for three years? If the club was a house, the owner would have taken it off the market by now and realised that the leaking roof is going to have to be fixed. These people are keen to sell.

[brian_gallagher85]

The return of dan Williams??

Perhaps he's moved to Dubai?

[67splitscreen]

Perhaps he's moved to Dubai?

Or even Abu Dhabi, Qatar or China.

[Majiball]

Look very carefully at the posts on this subject...and you will find one of the potential interested parties...I knew someone with inside knowledge would break the silence at some point...

Are the clues in the posts from today or do I have to trawl through the whole lot?

[JAL]

HMRC arent sniffing around are they ?

[nicko]

Are the clues in the posts from today or do I have to trawl through the whole lot?

Today...

[andyroversmad]

Are the clues in the posts from today or do I have to trawl through the whole lot?

I've gone through the last 3 pages and still ain't got a clue. Lol

[Majiball]

Today...

Cheers

And one of these posts or a combination actually names them personally?

[imy9]

Mandrake was very vocal about why Rovers should sell wasn't he?

[nicko]

It's pretty clear the club and the trustees know the names and indentities of the two current interested parties.

That was probably confirmed by a 'throw-away' remark earlier on today...

I don't want to go into names or backgrounds of the people I believe are involved [a] because I am very wary of the one I know about and detials of the other came in an off-the-record way.

All I would say is that I am not convinced either will come to anything.

Look out for a 'spoiler' in the local paper in the next few days.

But if I can put any more flesh on the bones I will do.

It's not worth losing sleep over or getting excited about at this stage.