[Archived] Election

[thenodrog]

Just to put things into perspective. Somebody sent me this a few days ago......

The actual figure of one billion, which continually drops off our politicians' tongues like honey. So the next time you hear a politician use the word 'billion' in a

casual manner, think about whether you want the 'politicians' spending YOUR

tax money. A billion is a difficult number to comprehend.

A. A billion seconds ago it was 1959.

B. A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.

C. A billion hours ago our ancestors were living in the Stone Age.

D. A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet.

E. A billion Pounds ago was only 13 hours and 12 minutes, at the rate

our government is spending it.

[broadsword]

It doesn't matter how long their lifespan is as long as the following criteria are met :-

1) Their constituent parts can be recycled.

2) The energy they produce in their lifetime is greater than the energy required to build a replacement.

And can they?

And is the energy output from them significantly higher than the energy required to build a replacement?

[Ewood Spark]

And can they?

And is the energy output from them significantly higher than the energy required to build a replacement?

Yes. Read this

[broadsword]

Fair play to you.

[Rover Down Under]

Many of your posts contain an attack on England

No, many of them attack LABOUR, the Party that has ruined England. Now we all know you would love England to be forever dominated by Labour but I'm afraid the people have spoken and that resulted in a Labour defeat.

and as long as you continue to do so you will get it back - and more.

Well I wouldn't expect anything less from such a nasty piece of work such as yourself, without a shadow of a doubt the most disliked and unwelcome member of this board.

Looking back at some of your "contributions" I have to this country is better off without people like you. I also doubt whether you will be happy in Australia either.

I'm sure if I voted Labour you would think the country is better off WITH me. Of course, you would believe that “what is rotten must be removed” wouldn't you Saloth?

I assume you also apply your millionth snide, nasty comment to the other quarter of a million people who leave England every year? Why do you think that is Jim? Why is it that in 2007 and 2008 the UK saw the greatest exodus in history of it's own people Jim?

And I'm perfectly happy in Australia thankyou very much, if I were an unhappy, angry, bitter, envious, twisted, nasty so-and-so I would be a Labour supporter and you would have no need to make your millionth and one vile, unpleasant comment.

There are however countries in the world with extreme right-wing reactionary governments such as Iran and Saudi Arabia where I'm sure you would feel far more at home. An alternative would be the US where the rise of the Tea party has given an outlet to the rightwing lunatics in that country. You should join them.

Of course, I don't like Labour so therefore I must be a "rightwing lunatic", what a brilliant piece of deduction! Even more so since you know nothing about how I vote or have voted.

Tell you what though, despite you incorrectly labelling Islamic theocracies as right-wing (I would have thought you would LOVE regimes that want to control every aspect of peoples lives, much more in common with the left) I will do you a deal. I'll move to one of the countries you have suggested if you move to North Korea. I would suggest China but you would completely miss the irony.

As soon as you get there just pop into an internet cafe and let us know you've arrived and I'll book my tickets straight away and when I arrive I'll drop you an email. Of course, if you can't find an internet cafe when you land just send a picture of you next to a statue of the Great Leader (Kim not Gordon, or Tony) from your mobile, OK?

[rebelmswar]

I will never understand how low taxes and government out of ones business as much as possible can be seen as a lunatic ideal.

[Paul]

<br />I will never understand how low taxes and government out of ones business as much as possible can be seen as a lunatic ideal.<br />

Low taxes is a problem simply because the government have no other method of raising income. Of course everyone wants "them" to run the country perfectly without spending any of our money. Daft.

As for interference i'd agree there is far too much red tape but without regulation there would be even more people demanding to know why "they" don't do something about it. The basic problem is when something goes wrong Mr or Mrs Outraged demand "they" (whoever that may be) do something but when that same individual finds themselves frustrated by a seemingly pointless law / rule there is too much interference.

Low taxes keeps Mr Outraged happy until he needs to go to hospital to lay on a trolley in a dirty corridor. People expect high standards for low prices. Doesn't work that way. KFC serve crap because that's what you get for low cost.

Government generally can't win and never will be able to.

[thenodrog]

Low taxes keeps Mr Outraged happy until he needs to go to hospital to lay on a trolley in a dirty corridor. People expect high standards for low prices. Doesn't work that way. KFC serve crap because that's what you get for low cost.

How's it work with Private Health then Paul? I pay for a Private Health Ins yet I get nothing off my NHI contributions and get taxed also as 'benefit in kind' on my tax code. Is this a 3 fold tax?

[Paul]

How's it work with Private Health then Paul? I pay for a Private Health Ins yet I get nothing off my NHI contributions and get taxed also as 'benefit in kind' on my tax code. Is this a 3 fold tax?

I'm not quite sure how that relates to my post but to answer the question I'd suggest this:

1. PHI is a discretionary choice you choose, or your employer chooses, to make and as such it should be paid for out of your taxed income. In this sense it is a product you choose to buy in the same manner as you or I chose to buy an ST or a TV. I don't see a problem if you feel it's something you want. I've been to a rather nice private hospital recently both visits paid for by the NHS - you get a very nice class of patient plus coffee and The Guardian. It was very civilised and I can understand the attraction.

2. NHI Contributions are a tax we all pay to be a part of the NHS. Does a proportion go towards state pension? I'm not sure on that. Anyway if you choose to opt out, totally, from the NHS I would be quite happy to see your NHI contributions re-imbursed. However this would have to be a complete opt out, no GP, no dentist, no NHS hospital, no A&E, no ambulance, unless you provided a form of insurance, which you paid for, allowing the NHS to be re-imbursed for the true cost of providing the care should you not be able to access the paid for private care quickly enough. Personally I think that is a rather unpleasant scenario, ambulance turns up, no insurance = no care. I don't want to live like that but those who do want Private Health Care should be entitled to opt out, they shouldn't complain though if the ambulance arrives too late.

3. Benefit in kind on your tax code would suggest to me the PHI is actually being paid by your employer or if you are self-employed, as I suspect, through your own business. It is therefore calculated as income in the same manner as a company car plus fuel. I'm sure you know this as well as I, and to me it seems perfectly reasonable. Your employment provides you with income, either direct or in kind and is therefore taxed. If you are paying PHI out of your own taxed income then I think you need to check your tax coding because this would seem unreasonable.

How is the fire-service funded? Do you want a step back to the days when if you didnt have the right badge on your house it would be left to burn? This and many other far -reaching implications for people who want to opt out of state services paid for by the taxpayer.

[Biddy]

Low taxes is a problem simply because the government have no other method of raising income. Of course everyone wants "them" to run the country perfectly without spending any of our money. Daft.

As for interference i'd agree there is far too much red tape but without regulation there would be even more people demanding to know why "they" don't do something about it. The basic problem is when something goes wrong Mr or Mrs Outraged demand "they" (whoever that may be) do something but when that same individual finds themselves frustrated by a seemingly pointless law / rule there is too much interference.

Low taxes keeps Mr Outraged happy until he needs to go to hospital to lay on a trolley in a dirty corridor. People expect high standards for low prices. Doesn't work that way. KFC serve crap because that's what you get for low cost.

Government generally can't win and never will be able to.

Paul, I'm afraid that is complete garbage...

KFC is lovely.

If you'd have said Venkys on the other hand, I may have agreed (even without tasting)

[den]

Paul, I'm afraid that is complete garbage...

KFC is lovely.

If you'd have said Venkys on the other hand, I may have agreed (even without tasting)

My wife likes KFC as well Biddy!

[joey_big_nose]

Totally agree on that font Paul. There is such little appreciation for how awesomely difficult it is to run the country, everybody seems to think it is easy. Nor much appreciation for the vast benefits organised government has provided in the last four hundred odd years - which have markedly increased in recent decades.

I have no problem with the criticism , God knows there are millions of things to criticise,, but its the total lack of weighing the positives against the negatives in the press and in the pub and on messageboards like this which gets my goat. You would think we were all getting lashed repeatedly in hell from the tone of the debate. It is relentless and dispiriting and so pitifully short on facts and much real analysis.

[thenodrog]

I'm not quite sure how that relates to my post but to answer the question I'd suggest this:

1. PHI is a discretionary choice you choose, or your employer chooses, to make and as such it should be paid for out of your taxed income. In this sense it is a product you choose to buy in the same manner as you or I chose to buy an ST or a TV. I don't see a problem if you feel it's something you want. I've been to a rather nice private hospital recently both visits paid for by the NHS - you get a very nice class of patient plus coffee and The Guardian. It was very civilised and I can understand the attraction.

2. NHI Contributions are a tax we all pay to be a part of the NHS. Does a proportion go towards state pension? I'm not sure on that. Anyway if you choose to opt out, totally, from the NHS I would be quite happy to see your NHI contributions re-imbursed. However this would have to be a complete opt out, no GP, no dentist, no NHS hospital, no A&E, no ambulance, unless you provided a form of insurance, which you paid for, allowing the NHS to be re-imbursed for the true cost of providing the care should you not be able to access the paid for private care quickly enough. Personally I think that is a rather unpleasant scenario, ambulance turns up, no insurance = no care. I don't want to live like that but those who do want Private Health Care should be entitled to opt out, they shouldn't complain though if the ambulance arrives too late.

3. Benefit in kind on your tax code would suggest to me the PHI is actually being paid by your employer or if you are self-employed, as I suspect, through your own business. It is therefore calculated as income in the same manner as a company car plus fuel. I'm sure you know this as well as I, and to me it seems perfectly reasonable. Your employment provides you with income, either direct or in kind and is therefore taxed. If you are paying PHI out of your own taxed income then I think you need to check your tax coding because this would seem unreasonable.

How is the fire-service funded? Do you want a step back to the days when if you didnt have the right badge on your house it would be left to burn? This and many other far -reaching implications for people who want to opt out of state services paid for by the taxpayer.

But when I actually use my PHI I must be saving the state a fortune Paul! Is there any recognition of the service and personal sacrifice that I am performing for the benefit of the nation as opposed to you lording it on Tea and scones and having the Gruniad provided at everybody else's expense? I wonder if they'll ever giving out honours for paying ones way through life? They should.

[Paul]

But when I actually use my PHI I must be saving the state a fortune Paul! Is there any recognition of the service and personal sacrifice that I am performing for the benefit of the nation as opposed to you lording it on Tea and scones and having the Gruniad provided at everybody else's expense? I wonder if they'll ever giving out honours for paying ones way through life? They should.

I can't help but feel you have missed the point. You asked a question relating to PHI to which I gave three reasonable answers which you ignore - I'd suspect this being because you already knew these correct answers and merely looked for point scoring exercise. You are saving the state money but it's a choice you made and as I said if you chose a 100% opt out of state health services you should not pay the relevant proportion of taxes. No problem for me, so long as you never expect the state to pick up the bill if the private sector should fail you.

Sadly you seem to have missed the irony of the situation. I am happy to access the NHS. Recently I needed a very minor operation and my GP referred me to a consultant at Euxton Hall. On querying this the GP explained it is frequently cheaper, for him, to refer to the private sector as it has become very competitive, in certain geographical areas, due to over-capacity. The private sector is looking for business. The private service you are happy to effectively pay twice for is available, in this instance, via the NHS. It seems to be excellent management by the GP, private health care has over-capacity, paid for by those who chose to use it, and services can be purchased at cheaper rates for NHS benefit. This seems to help everyone though as I suspect you purchase PHI for reasons other than personal sacrifice to the nation I doubt you will be getting an honour.

As for "lording it" I went to the hospital directed by my GP because it was cheaper for the NHS. I've paid my NHI for nearly 40 years. I can't help that the private sector you chose to fund has over-capacity which it sells off cheap. I feel this is an issue you might want to address with your PHI provider, it is your money paying for the over-capacity and there appear to be questions as to how efficiently the money is being used? It was a very good experience and I appreciate why people wish to pay for the frills found in the private sector. I have to confess The Guardian was a small wind-up for your benefit - it was actually the Telegraph, Mail and Country Living, as one would expect.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with private health care, if I felt it necessary I would happily pay to access better or faster treatment. To date I'm glad to say I haven't needed to make that choice as the NHS has always provided my family with excellent treatment. It's very pleasing to note the enormous strides the NHS has made in the past 20 years in terms of service, treatment and care.

[thenodrog]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/8741317/Darling-of-the-Left-is-a-godsend-for-the-Right.html

They are all queueing up to boot Brown in the nuts. First Bliar and Mandelson and now that nice mild mannered Alastair Darling. poor Jimk2 is proven to be a fool and an ignoramus for backing him so stoutly. His "best Chancellor in history" description has turned out to be anything but, and as a PM he was dangerously irrational. The man was an egotistical maniac and enemy of the nation. According to Darling his treatment of Gillian Duffy was not a one off at all was it? Turns out it was typical of the man. The biggest tragedy is that so many chose to follow their parental brainwashing through a sense of misplaced duty and failed to see the man for what he was.

His boss fares little better also..... how many Libyan political prisoners will have taken this image of the man to their graves?

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/election2001/images/0,,449562,00.html

tf we are shot of the lot of them, and are likely to stay that way whilst Milliband Minor remains the best hope of Labour Party.

[thenodrog]

Watched Andrew Marr's show (with the only proper BRFC supporting MP on the sofa) and he informs us that the Liberal party is heading for a collision with the Tories as they seek soak the rich and target the nations tax evaders.

The latter is not a bad idea but I'd love HMRC to target MP's themselves. Who else in the country can get away with claiming expenses 2 or even 3 times greater than their annual salary? To the best of my knowledge it just doesn't happen and if it did the Revenue would be down on them like a tonne of bricks. Just cos they make them should not put them above the rules which we all have to abide by does it? Maybe our Tim might choose to answer himself as 4 years ago he managed such a high placing in the MP's expenses league that in football parlance would have got him into Europe!

Just as a matter of interest does anybody on here manage to claim such proportionately high expenses in their business or employment?

[rosie]

Watched Andrew Marr's show (with the only proper BRFC supporting MP on the sofa) and he informs us that the Liberal party is heading for a collision with the Tories as they seek soak the rich and target the nations tax evaders.

The latter is not a bad idea but I'd love HMRC to target MP's themselves. Who else in the country can get away with claiming expenses 2 or even 3 times greater than their annual salary? To the best of my knowledge it just doesn't happen and if it did the Revenue would be down on them like a tonne of bricks. Just cos they make them should not put them above the rules which we all have to abide by does it? Maybe our Tim might choose to answer himself as 4 years ago he managed such a high placing in the MP's expenses league that in football parlance would have got him into Europe!

Just as a matter of interest does anybody on here manage to claim such proportionately high expenses in their business or employment?

Gordon, have you ever looked at those figures properly? The reason Tim hasn't been annihilated over his expenses is because they were all for legitimate things such as staff, travel and casework (ie. postage, stationery and office costs). The old rules have well and truly been done over - there's no first class travel, allowance for replacing your furniture/kitchen/bathroom/ whatever every year any more. I don't actually think you're being very fair here.

[wilyrover]

Who is it?

Hyndburn's Graham Jones is a Rovers fan.

[thenodrog]

Gordon, have you ever looked at those figures properly? The reason Tim hasn't been annihilated over his expenses is because they were all for legitimate things such as staff, travel and casework (ie. postage, stationery and office costs). The old rules have well and truly been done over - there's no first class travel, allowance for replacing your furniture/kitchen/bathroom/ whatever every year any more. I don't actually think you're being very fair here.

No I haven't sorry Rosie. Just a quick google as usual. Please be aware that my main point was not to have a go at your husband (he was just the one sitting on the studio couch pointing accusatory fingers at others but in truth it could have been one of many) but to have a go at the double standards which allow for a priveledged elite to prosper under different rules and at the expense of Joe Public. All the more when those fingers are being pointed at those that really matter to the future prosperity and wellbeing of the country, the investors, inventors, captains of industry and general go getters who really create wealth and employment and not those empty vessels who pontificate, squabble and push paper for a living.

To judge with complete accuracy I'd have to examine closely the expenses of all the other 650 or so sitting MP's. Notwithstanding that the feat of being elected to Westminster and within a year leaping to producing the 5th highest expense claim in the Parliamentary expenses league table must take quite some effort and especially given the subsequently proven dishonesty of mnay within the company he was keeping. I realise that your Tim has to his credit since made plenty of noises about MP's expenses being more transparent.

Oh btw..... Do you have a duck pond by any chance?

[thenodrog]

Hyndburn's Graham Jones is a Rovers fan.

Sorry didn't know that. Hardly heard of him. Greg Pope's replacement I assume?

[thenodrog]

You were referring to Greg Pope originally?

No.

[only2garners]

No.

I presume he refers to Tim Farron. He is definitely a serious Rovers fan. He was on Broadcasting House on Radio 4 on Sunday morning on the panel reviewing the papers. He chose to talk about the vagaries of the press - Kean was going to be the first to be sacked on Saturday morning and on Sunday it was Wenger.

This is also of course Jack Straw. I assume he is still a ST holder. He used for years to sit with his kids behind us in the Family Stand.