[Archived] Election

[Paul]

What I struggle to handle is how people seem to think things will be better under the Conservatives. Wait for these fantastic ideas of spending cuts, under the Toryism cliches of 'common sense' and 'sensibility', to kick in. Jobs will directly be lost over this and that's one darn good reason I'm not going to vote that way. I won't play party to voting for a party that knows jobs will be lost and they will not have lifted a finger to put these people in other jobs.

What I also find amazing is that people are naive enough to think that the Tories would have avoided this banking crisis. Get real. People who are voting Tory this time are voting for change for the sake of change when in reality I don't think ANY government could have helped avoid this recession unless they had absolutely amazing foresight. This thing has been global, not local.

The only thing this TV debate has done is highlight charisma. Gordon Brown has no charisma and is certainly not strong enough to be a real leader but IMO he has the brains to get us out of this. The Tory policy is simple - reduce the public spending and hope for the best. I despair.

Ah some commonsense at last. It is blindingly obvious the Conservative party will cut public sector jobs which will have an enormous impact on those put out of work and on our society as a whole. While there is still much to be done, and much that can be criticised, there is no doubt the huge improvements in public services achieved by Labour are directly threatened by the Conservative party. Yes of course there is wastage and efficiencies to be made at all levels of public service but believing the Conservatives will do much more than cut jobs is foolish. It's easy to criticise but anyone who uses public services and cares to think back 15 - 20 years will be hard pressed to deny the improvements. The problem is many expect something for nothing and are not prepared to pay for the service.

There is no possibility the Conservatives would have avoided the banking crisis, no other government did so why should the Tories have been different? This crisis was not manufactured by the Labour party it came about through the consumer's desire for cheap money, overspending and the banking industry's interminable greed to fund that spending. It was not world governments that lent money to people who had no hope of repaying the debt, then repackaged the debt and sold it on. What we should be discussing is the manner in which the government has responded to the crisis and there can be little doubt Brown has steered the country through recession and we are coming out relatively unscathed. Yes we have massive debt but surely that is better than the alternative of a collapsed banking industry and probably the highest levels of unemploment ever seen in the UK?

[koi]

Ah some commonsense at last. It is blindingly obvious the Conservative party will cut public sector jobs which will have an enormous impact on those put out of work and on our society as a whole. While there is still much to be done, and much that can be criticised, there is no doubt the huge improvements in public services achieved by Labour are directly threatened by the Conservative party. Yes of course there is wastage and efficiencies to be made at all levels of public service but believing the Conservatives will do much more than cut jobs is foolish. It's easy to criticise but anyone who uses public services and cares to think back 15 - 20 years will be hard pressed to deny the improvements. The problem is many expect something for nothing and are not prepared to pay for the service.

There is no possibility the Conservatives would have avoided the banking crisis, no other government did so why should the Tories have been different? This crisis was not manufactured by the Labour party it came about through the consumer's desire for cheap money, overspending and the banking industry's interminable greed to fund that spending. It was not world governments that lent money to people who had no hope of repaying the debt, then repackaged the debt and sold it on. What we should be discussing is the manner in which the government has responded to the crisis and there can be little doubt Brown has steered the country through recession and we are coming out relatively unscathed. Yes we have massive debt but surely that is better than the alternative of a collapsed banking industry and probably the highest levels of unemploment ever seen in the UK?

Don't worry about it mate.

If last nights poll actually happens the party with the lowest number of votes will win the election.

[thenodrog]

Good post. But be prepared for a slating from the loony right.

The most left wing party are without a doubt nowadays the Lib Dems Jim. So bearing that in mind whose gonna get your vote? You must be on the horns of a dilemma this time.

[thenodrog]

Labour inherited an economy finally recovering in the last two years of 18 years of Tory mis-rule. That's all three of your stumps knocked out of the ground by a googly, a chinaman and an arm-ball rolled into one.

In your dreams Jim........ Your 'deadly' bowling reminds me more of that of Malcolm Nash.

Enjoy.......... http://www.theburntbail.com/2006/gary-sobers-six-sixes-video/

[thenodrog]

............ In my household whenever we had substantial financial problems we made big savings, no holidays etc, and had strict budgets on monthly spend until we got back on track.

Ah some commonsense at last. It is blindingly obvious the Conservative party will cut public sector jobs which will have an enormous impact on those put out of work and on our society as a whole. While there is still much to be done, and much that can be criticised, there is no doubt the huge improvements in public services achieved by Labour are directly threatened by the Conservative party. Yes of course there is wastage and efficiencies to be made at all levels of public service but believing the Conservatives will do much more than cut jobs is foolish. It's easy to criticise but anyone who uses public services and cares to think back 15 - 20 years will be hard pressed to deny the improvements. The problem is many expect something for nothing and are not prepared to pay for the service.

? Common sense?

Paul the message in these posts is somewhat contradictory. You advocate going in one direction in theory and in practice go the opposite way. Which way is it to be?

[koi]

Don't even know why Jim is still supporting the Labour party, surely he should be Socialist Labour? Or do we forget Clause 4 ever existed?

[koi]

Interesting point........from Labour

Clegg wouldn't scrap trident they would seek alternatives for the replacement in the 2020s, not quite what he intimated the other night is it? Further more, Labour claim that as many 15,000 jobs could be lost in the nuclear industry if the trident programme is scrapped.

[1864roverite]

Now then Jim, have you been appearing in the dementia adverts ? have you seen then recently ?

If not I will send you some elaflets on the subject.

Your old brain is puddled with the spin of Labour gone past.

Anyone wh could stomach another 5 years of them is wrong in the head.

[jim mk2]

Defence is a key British manaufacturing sector and one in which we still have world-class companies and unrivalled expertise. It is important to the prosperity of the North west and the Blackburn area in particular, with many thousands of jobs at stake. None of the political parties should do anything to damage an industry that is vital to the economy.

[only2garners]

Well philip we can all choose a financial study to suit our argument can't we? How about the Tories using Labours own financial advisers to work on their policy? what about the 100+ business leaders who are opposed to the increase on NIC? the list goes on. You pick and choose what ever you want my judgements are based on my reality. I'm a 'man on the street' trying to run a small business, trying to make a living for my family. I'm an employer, a supplier to other business, a retailer. I deal with banks, government, legal institutions on a regular basis. So philip I say as I see, whereas you have proved many times on this board that you're quite prone to, erm, debatable judgements on these reports you like to read...

So the Institute for Fiscal Studies, that well known left wing organisation, is not good enough for you. You would prefer the opinions of a group of self-interested businessmen? Presumably I could ask 100 union leaders and get a diametrically opposed opinion on NI, but that would be just as unrepresentative.

The most left wing party are without a doubt nowadays the Lib Dems Jim. So bearing that in mind whose gonna get your vote? You must be on the horns of a dilemma this time.

I think you will find the Greens are somewhat more to the left of the Lib Dems Gordon.

[thenodrog]

So the Institute for Fiscal Studies, that well known left wing organisation, is not good enough for you. You would prefer the opinions of a group of self-interested businessmen? Presumably I could ask 100 union leaders and get a diametrically opposed opinion on NI, but that would be just as unrepresentative.

I think you will find the Greens are somewhat more to the left of the Lib Dems Gordon.

Oh yeah thanks. Funny I must have gone to put the kettle on and missed their contribution on the TV debate the other night.

[broadsword]

I went to university when the Tories were in power ... I got a free education, can't complain about that.

Just wait until you try saving for your old age, see if you think Labour's so wonderful then.

EDIT: Although |I don't see the need to try to put 50% of people through university.

[RibbleValleyRover]

It's just one poll but if others indicate that there is a narrowing then its going to make it easy for the electorate to decide who they want. Going off the Yougov poll Labour are third in percentage terms but will be the largest party and will form a coalition government with the Lib Dems. So Labour come third and you still get five more years of Brown.

Its needs to be publicised to the electorate that Clegg has virtually no chance of governing, not under this voting system and it would take major gains over several elections for them to stand a chance. A vote for Clegg is a vote for Brown.

[philipl]

Don't worry about it mate.

If last nights poll actually happens the party with the lowest number of votes will win the election.

Which is why need electoral reform rather being told to vote for one of two parties which don't represent what individuals believe in and we don't want to govern us unfettered.

A vote for Clegg is a vote for Clegg.

In the constituency I am in, voting LD will reduce Labour by one MP.

Anyway, judging by koi's latest contribution slagging off a post which quoted the conclusions of the Institute of Fiscal Studies (and gave the Tories and Labour twice as much quoted material as the Lib Dems), the Tories are frit (to quote St Margaret).

[koi]

Which is why need electoral reform rather being told to vote for one of two parties which don't represent what individuals believe in or want to govern us.

Doesn't disagree with you on principle but I remain unconvinced about how effective PR would be in reality.

By the way, a report has been released today by one these government agencies that claims the Tory economic reform would result in an increase of 13% in GDP. Not saying that's correct but it just goes to show how there's a report for every argument.

[Jonnolad]

We do share with the US - Trident, and it's on a completely different level.

No we just have Trident and so do they - there's no sharing aspect of it between us and the US.

[koi]

The UK & US share development costs if trident.

[1864roverite]

So... because I've gone through a fantastic education system thanks to this Government, because the instituions I've learned at have had fantastic Government investment and facilities and because I've been in consistent and good employment over the last six years and enjoyed one of the fastest growing economies of a developed country in the world, I'm wrong in the head?

I think people aren't aware of the benefits they've brought to this country that would never have come had the Tories stayed in power in '97.

Dont worry mate, 5 more yrs under this leadership and you WILL join the unemployed.

As for the fastest growing economy, why the hell do we owe so much money ??

Why is council tax double what it was ?

Why are our armed forces so poorly equipped ?

Why is unemployment rising ?

Why are there so many small businesses collapsing ?

Why is the pound the weakest it has ever been ?

IT IS ONE SIMPLE ANSWER TO ALL OF THE ABOVE.

LABOUR

[colin]

Dont worry mate, 5 more yrs under this leadership and you WILL join the unemployed.

As for the fastest growing economy, why the hell do we owe so much money ??

Why is council tax double what it was ?

Why are our armed forces so poorly equipped ?

Why is unemployment rising ?

Why are there so many small businesses collapsing ?

Why is the pound the weakest it has ever been ?

IT IS ONE SIMPLE ANSWER TO ALL OF THE ABOVE.

LABOUR

1864, I think you may be over-simplifying things a touch

A fast growing economy can owe a lot of money. The two are not incompatable. Government borrowing has been rising for 200 years.

Council tax is the double of what it was? What it was when? Mine's gone up £2 a month. Concil tax has very little to do with central government.

Our armed forces are not poorly equipped. They are however involved in two wars. Wars mean soldiers get killeed. It's probably not a very good war if people don't die.

Unemployment is rising, but at a very very low rate, and from a low base level. No where near six million yet.

Are there so many small businesses collapsing? What is "so many?"

The pound is not the weakest it has ever been.

I think you are justr being simplistic. Not "simple" - simplistic.

[koi]

Which is why need electoral reform rather being told to vote for one of two parties which don't represent what individuals believe in and we don't want to govern us unfettered.

A vote for Clegg is a vote for Clegg.

In the constituency I am in, voting LD will reduce Labour by one MP.

Anyway, judging by koi's latest contribution slagging off a post which quoted the conclusions of the Institute of Fiscal Studies (and gave the Tories and Labour twice as much quoted material as the Lib Dems), the Tories are frit (to quote St Margaret).

Oh slagging it off was I! I merely pointed out that there's reports out there that support any argument you care to use.

Anyway, I'm presuming your conclusion of the Institute of Fiscal Studies is this one:

http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/4820

That's not a conclusion, it's an observation by the reporter. Have you actually read it? not an overwhelming endorsement is it? You seem to like coming on here quoting impressive sounding reports don't you. Not too keen when your challenged though!

[philipl]

What I did koi was copy the end of the IFS report of each on the three parties' manifestos and post them here.

Endings are known as conclusions.

Typical Liberal Democrat- I was being fair and balanced.

[broadsword]

Can't see the LibDem pledge to give amnesty to illegal immigrants going down too well with the electorate.

Exposed flanks: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/election_2010/article7100324.ece

[cletus]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/My-vote-in-the-2010-UK-general-election_W0QQitemZ320519188782QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item4aa06eb12e

....earning a little extra cash

[thenodrog]

I went to university when the Tories were in power ... I got a free education, can't complain about that.

Just wait until you try saving for your old age, see if you think Labour's so wonderful then.

EDIT: Although |I don't see the need to try to put 50% of people through university.

Course you do Bryan.... it's called a 'stealth tax' these days. El Tombro will cop for it in due course and then he'll see the light and turn into us.

Its needs to be publicised to the electorate that Clegg has virtually no chance of governing, not under this voting system and it would take major gains over several elections for them to stand a chance.

If the electorate need to be told that they shouldn't have the right to vote.

[philipl]

We will have to see whether the press or the opponents go after the Lib Dems' weaker points. The Lib Dem position on amnesty and asylum seekers makes good economic and social sense irrespective of the Daily Mail gut reaction to it.

At the moment it all feels like a phoney war anyway.

The Tories are particularly vulnerable if everything turns nasty:

- more Tory MPs than Labour were wrapped up in expenses scandals and as there are fewer of them in Parliament statistically they were twice as likely as Labour to have been dodgy.

- Belize billionaire not only financially supporting them but he is masterminding their campaign to unseat 100 MPs in what they see as the key marginals and still has not yet been called out properly for completely duping William Hague over his tax status.

- Dave being an Old Etonian has been worked to death but the incredibly narrow circle of OE friends and advisers he keeps hasn't.

- has nobody got pictures of Dave's Bullingdon Club days? I bumped into that noxious mob during Dave's time in a pub in Oxfordshire and can still vividly remember so there must be stuff somewhere.

- more profoundly, he is leading a Party which fundamentally disagrees with his political positioning on all the things that matter the most to them (as opposed t the public in general); law'norder, punishment, Europe, immigration etc. If the Lib Dem bounce persists, the nasty party will get nasty with Dave or at least start breaking ranks as they see their chances of winning diminishing.

Without being profound, the Telegraph piece probably hits the nail on the head with what is happening now.