[Archived] Election

[Mattyblue]

Voting for the BNP because you want to see tougher rules on immigration is like voting for Hitler because you want to see people's dress sense sharpen up a little. You can't cherry pick the BNP's immigration policy (or should I say their 'advertised' immigration policy) and ignore all the others they want to introduce.

I once thought the BNP got a raw deal until I actually took the time to read one of their manifestos (and not just the big, flashy, and 'safer' stuff they promote on their site/in debates).

Next time you canvas opinion from your peers, ask them if they'd like to see mixed race marraiges outlawed or if they would be happy witha Government that wants to power to 'send home' anybody that doesn't have a releative that lived here in the 1600s...because by voting BNP that is exactly what you are voting for.

It is halfwitted because if someone's real issue is immigration then why not vote for UKIP who have a similar policy without the racist past/intentions.

Unfortunately, unless immigration and in many areas the increasing influence of Islam on our culture is discussed by the main parties the support for the BNP will only grow. This support can be nipped in the bud very easily with a stricter policy on immigration, will we see this from the big 3? I seriously doubt it.

BTW I am voting UKIP, 'wasted vote' maybe but its that or pretty patterns on my ballot paper.

[Ewood and I Would]

You notice how the BNP are quick to shout about all these coloured people coming over and taking jobs away from young people, but totally ignore that by 'young people' they mean young white chavs who generally think the World owes them a footballer's lifestyle/wage and would rather collect benefits that do what they think is a menial job.

The problem isn't with cheap labour (we have minimum wage here so in most cases that argument doesn't work anyway) it is with OUR young people and culture (and I say that as a young person, well 29 so you be the judge). Everytime I hear that the foriegn workers are doing jobs 'the British don't want to do' it annoys me because if you have no job, no qualifacations and no pratical skills then you SHOULD be doing a menial job for low wages.

When I was at School (OK so now I'm sounding old but it was 11 years ago now) I had the understanding that if I didn't work hard then I'd end up being a toilet cleaner or working in Maccy D's but now if I was 14 I'd just think well I'm too good to do those things and some poor foreigner will do it for me whilst I sit on benefits and get more than them without having to lift a finger....oh but when I go down the pub I'll moan that ther are taking my jobs still...

[colin]

Why not vote UKIP instead if immigration is the issue?

Ther UKIP want to introduce bicycle parking charges..................wooooooosh.............

wibble wibble hatstand, more beetroot, Archdeacon?

[Mattyblue]

"Loss of British identity?" I'm sorry but this sort of claptrap in my eyes singles people out as either halfwits, or unashamed racists looking to justify their views.

What sense of British identity do you feel is being lost? The Britain where the national dish has become Chicken Tikka Masala, the best national football manager in years is an Italian and full of the sons of immigrants, our most famous and most brilliant musical export (The Beatles) started off as a band imitating American styles and ended it as a band being inspired by Indian styles or where our best cricketers are South African?

I don't think the politicians have anything to do with that do you? Or do you feel that some of the genuinely British achievements and traditions this country is associated with - the works of Shakespeare, the great minds that this country has produced like Darwin, Newton and Faraday or the defeat of - ironically - the facsists during World War II will somehow be eroded by some immigrants coming to this country?

British identity, like any national identity, is not a static thing. British identity in 1500 is different from 1800 which is different from 1900 which in turn would vary a great deal from British identity in 1950 and 1990. It is dynamic and will be different again in 50 years' time, but if the likes of the BNP were ever to get a foothold then in the eyes of the world being small minded and bigoted would suddenly leap near to the top in the eyes of the world. Thank god that would never happen.

OK we'll get some of those 3 million unemployed and just randomly allocate them jobs in the medical, legal, engineering etc professions. I'm sure that would turn out fine wouldn't it?

And you wonder why I call BNP supporters halfwits..

So as a 'halfwit', help me to understand how the legal, medical and engineering professions would collapse without the immigration we have seen over the last 6/7 years?

Student doctors and nurses graduating from our universities find it very difficult finding work once qualified, my stepsister is about to qualify as a nurse and is up against 50 applicants for every position.

Please enlighten me how the legal sector would also be thereatened?

And as for engineering, our base has shrunk drastically, hardly the demand their once was. And as a former BAE Systems employee, the graduate and apprentice schemes are vastly oversubscribed every year.

Of course, we are part of a common market of 300 million people, if we cannot fill key roles like you have stated above, the EU must not be fit for purpose?

How about reforming our welfare system that seens generation after generation locked into welfare dependency instead of earning a living?

An Australian style system of non common market immigration, plus free movement of people across the EU, plus the millions of working age without work is a vast human resource.

Canvassers of all parties have stated that after the economy, immigration is the big issue. Certianly a seachange from 1997.

[Ewood and I Would]

Unfortunately, unless immigration and in many areas the increasing influence of Islam on our culture is discussed by the main parties the support for the BNP will only grow. This support can be nipped in the bud very easily with a stricter policy on immigration, will we see this from the big 3? I seriously doubt it.

But if you looked a the big 3 you would see that they have changed their immigrations policies. I watch QT a lot and this topic gets asked about nearly every week and to be honest I think if you were to read Labour or the Conservitives policy 4 or 5 years ago they would be labled as racist.

For example, isn't the latest Labour policy to only allow economic migration if the job that person takes has been advertised for 1 year in the job centre (i.e it's offered to Brits first) which sounds fairly reasonable to me.

Lest we forget there are thre types of immigrants

Economic Migrants - People who come here to work. I think the latest policies from the main parties are fairer now.

Geniune Asylum Seekers - If you want to me the man to send these people back to certain death then fine as long as you can sleep at night.

Bogus Asylum Seekers/Illegal immigrants - I don't think any party would allow bogus appplications to stay, you have to find the others we don't know about but then that is more of a border security question rather than one on policy.

Let me turn it around and ask specifically what you don't like about the Lib/Lab/Con's CURRENT manifesto stance on immigration.

[LeChuck]

BTW I am voting UKIP, 'wasted vote' maybe but its that or pretty patterns on my ballot paper.

As a UKIP voter perhaps you might be able to answer this for me, I've been wanting to ask but it never seemed appropriate so far. What's the deal with their 'single flat tax rate for everyone' policy? Unless I've misunderstood how that would work, doesn't that work against the people that are attracted to their immigration and EU policies?

Back to BNP, there was an interesting news article on television a few years back, in a town where immigration was a 'hot topic', with complaints of foreign immigrants taking local jobs. A lot of these jobs were working on farms, doing things like strawberry picking nonstop for 10 hours a day. There were plenty of the stereotypical white males, like EAIW mentioned above, answering "na mate" when asked if they would do that job instead of signing on. Obviously I can't discount the possibility that 90% said they would and only the 10% that said 'no' were on TV...but coming from a town that is littered with those kind of people, I doubt it sincerely.

Ther UKIP want to introduce bicycle parking charges..................wooooooosh.............

wibble wibble hatstand, more beetroot, Archdeacon?

I must admit, I have no idea what you're on about there.

[broadsword]

That reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJsNd0NP_0U

- Has your party got any policies?

- Oh yes, certainly! We're for the compulsory serving of asparagus at breakfast, free corsets for the under-fives, and the abolition of slavery.

- Now; you see, many moderate people would respect your stand on asparagus,

but what about this extremist nonsense about abolishing slavery?

[tony gale's mic]

So as a 'halfwit', help me to understand how the legal, medical and engineering professions would collapse without the immigration we have seen over the last 6/7 years?

Student doctors and nurses graduating from our universities find it very difficult finding work once qualified, my stepsister is about to qualify as a nurse and is up against 50 applicants for every position.

Please enlighten me how the legal sector would also be thereatened?

And as for engineering, our base has shrunk drastically, hardly the demand their once was. And as a former BAE Systems employee, the graduate and apprentice schemes are vastly oversubscribed every year.

Of course, we are part of a common market of 300 million people, if we cannot fill key roles like you have stated above, the EU must not be fit for purpose?

An Australian style system of non common market immigration, plus free movement of people across the EU, plus the millions of working age without work is a vast human resource.

Canvassers of all parties have stated that after the economy, immigration is the big issue. Certianly a seachange from 1997.

/

You've still yet to answer my question about British identity but we'll let that one slide for now shall we?

The BNP are advocating zero immigration and you yourself implicitly backed their stance on immigration stated that you don't see the need for immigration when there's three million people unemployed. However on the other hand you advocate an Australian style system in your new post which is EXACTLY what Labour are proposing in their manifesto. You state the EU is one of the human resources available to us - the BNP want us OUT of the EU so surely coupled with zero immigration that would mean that human resource you described would be reduced to nothing under the BNP?

I think it's quite fair to describe someone as a bit halfwitted if they argue points without bothering to gain any knowledge of the subject. You may actually possess a fine mind but I can only deal with the evidence in front of me...

Student doctors come out with a guaranteed job. I should know as I'm currently doing that guaranteed job. Some of the most brilliant consultant doctors and surgeons in the hospital I work in (a large tertiary centre with a smattering of genuinely world class doctors and surgeons) are immigrants and no longer bringing them in would reduce standards. I've also met dozens of final year student nurses on the wards and the vast majority of them have jobs for next year. Legal sector actually I'll grant you it's not usually been that flooded with immigrants come to think of it, and instead of engineering I should have substituted it for information technology to keep up to date with the times as large amounts of skilled workers are being brought over from India to here and the US in that field.

So again, you're basically wrong..

[Ewood and I Would]

Back to BNP, there was an interesting news article on television a few years back, in a town where immigration was a 'hot topic', with complaints of foreign immigrants taking local jobs. A lot of these jobs were working on farms, doing things like strawberry picking nonstop for 10 hours a day. There were plenty of the stereotypical white males, like EAIW mentioned above, answering "na mate" when asked if they would do that job instead of signing on. Obviously I can't discount the possibility that 90% said they would and only the 10% that said 'no' were on TV...but coming from a town that is littered with those kind of people, I doubt it sincerely.

There was a programme on a few weeks back where they gave a group of stereotypical BNP supporters (there political affliation wasn't aired I just mean they say things like 'they're taking our jobs' and houses away from British people) the jobs of migrants and all they had to do was stick it out for TWO days to prove they could back up their complaint that work was being taken away from them.

From memory there were around 8 people featured and only 1 was a success in that he liked the job and was even employed by the company that took him on for the experiment (it was a builder's job though), the others were just an embarrassment to the rest of us Brits. One of the guys didn't even turn up and phoned in 'sick' which he even admitted to them was a hangover. He actually thought that was a legitmate excuse.

The three lads they sent to pick strawberries failed miserably and none of them earnt enough (they are paid by the kilo picked) so that the farmer had to top up their wages to meet the mimimun wage requirement.

[philipl]

I think immigration is a wonderful thing.

My wife and stepson are both immigrants and at least 60% of my friends in the UK are immigrants. Of the British non-immigrant people I know well, quite a few are muslims and hindus and many have married people of different nationalities.

My mother was superbly treated by an English GP and Ghanaian and Spanish specialists in the NHS after an English doctor botched a routine investigation in a private hospital.

Far from taking "British jobs" immigrants are usually highly entrepreneurial and generate jobs and wealth for all of society. I am currently working closely with a devoutly Muslim first generation Pakistani immigrant family who originally came to Bradford and now are built from nothing a private college in London educating over 1200 students in vocational studies and employ over 50 people of all races and beliefs.

I am spending more time in London now but I enormously enjoyed and appreciated my time based in Malta and I believe I left a pretty big and lasting legacy there through my business activities. So migration works both ways.

Switching tack, did Cameron really call for "no more old politics of hung Parliaments" in his PPB tonight???

[Billy Castell]

So if the BNP get in, will we deport Kevin Pietersen, Damien Duff and Warren Gatland? They're all foreigners taking 'our' jobs after all. And what of this Polish striker we hope to sign? Or another Chris Samba or N'Zonzi we may find? Are they allowed in because they can do sport? What about Ghurka soldiers? Shall we tell them to eff off after fighting for us and risking death for us?

The BNP are racist clots who are trying to sharpen up their act and appear 'respectable'. The fact is, they are a one trick pony that have nothing to say on the current economic situation, education and suchlike. To vote to them is to say 'I reject thought and blame the darkies for everything'. OK, I am against the BNP, and always have been, but I must say that as a political party they offer nothing.

[tony gale's mic]

So if the BNP get in, will we deport Kevin Pietersen, Damien Duff and Warren Gatland? They're all foreigners taking 'our' jobs after all. And what of this Polish striker we hope to sign? Or another Chris Samba or N'Zonzi we may find? Are they allowed in because they can do sport? What about Ghurka soldiers? Shall we tell them to eff off after fighting for us and risking death for us?

The BNP are racist clots who are trying to sharpen up their act and appear 'respectable'. The fact is, they are a one trick pony that have nothing to say on the current economic situation, education and suchlike. To vote to them is to say 'I reject thought and blame the darkies for everything'. OK, I am against the BNP, and always have been, but I must say that as a political party they offer nothing.

On the plus side MGP would be deported which almost makes me want to campaign for them. They should probably run with that headline and stick posters up down at Ewood.

[Ewood and I Would]

Pedersen probably has more right to be here than Griffin considering he could probably trace his ancestors back to the 1066 invasion

[SouthAussieRover]

Don't you mean the Vikings rather than the French?

[Glenn]

Interesting (for a geek like me), 5 mins after the PPB, it's now appearing as a advert (supplied by google) at the top of this page (google try to target the adverts based on the page content, so it's well targeted) and it's a link to a YouTube hosted video of it. An unexpectedly good use of modern advertising.

What's more, as it's a YouTube link (and nothing has to be sold), it means we're getting paid per click, so either show your support for DC by watching it again, or try and bring the Cons down one micro-payment at a time

[Beta Ray Bill]

Don't you mean the Vikings rather than the French?

wasn't there a Viking attack earlier than the Battle of Hastings in 1066 that depleted Harold's forces so much they fell over a lot more easily?

Even if they weren't significantly fewer in number, they were probably rather weary and demoralised. A bit like us watching MGP every week.

[thenodrog]

wasn't there a Viking attack earlier than the Battle of Hastings in 1066 that depleted Harold's forces so much they fell over a lot more easily?

Yes at Stamford Bridge.

Imagine naming a battle after a flippin football ground eh?

[Ewood and I Would]

Don't you mean the Vikings rather than the French?

No I'm talking about the Normans who were decended from Scandanavian vikings. The Normans were not "French", they were Normans (or Norse Men, meaning from scandanavia) who had conquered an area of France before moving on to us!

[JAL]

Anyone voting for Labour or the Tories should hang your heads in shame !

[modes98]

Anyone voting for Labour or the Tories should hang your heads in shame !

Why? It is a free country and people vote for the party that offers them the best future. For me Labour offers a lot more job security than Tory. Lib Dems I am tempted to vote for but I'm not sure they know what they would do on various issues, some ideas just seem to be aimed more to get on the good side of the electorate and not thought out enough.

[LeChuck]

Why? It is a free country and people vote for the party that offers them the best future.

Do they? Some people try to look past their own nose. Obviously you're not going to vote for a party that would harm your future, but it's nowhere near as simple as you're making out.

[Ewood and I Would]

Can someone tell me what's so bad about the Tories?

Only one rule, no reference to Maggie Thatcher or the last Tory Government (which hasn't been in power for 13 years and had completely different people in it) and no reference to Cameron being 'posh' (which is just pathetic prejudice that would be allowed the other way around IMO).

BTW I'm not a tory boy and not sure who I'll vote for yet...it's just annoys me when people slag off the tories based on nothing more than the fact you're supposed to hate them right?

[philipl]

The Lib Dems and Labour should have formed a new party together. "Anybody but the Tories".

I'm pleased that the Lib Dems are getting some good publicity out of the TV debates. I just hope that it has more damaging effects to the Tories than it does Labour.

The current surge is hurting the Tories twice as much as it is Labour.

More critically is what it is doing in the marginals. Before the Lib Dem surge, an opinion poll survey of the Tories 120 most winnable seats showed that about 70 of the 100 most vulnerable Labour seats were swinging Tory whereas 0 (that is none) of the 20 most winnable LD seas were going Tory.

The surge could well be making currently Tory held seats vulnerable to the LDs but what it is doing in Lab/Tory marginals is anybody's guess.

In this part of London, I am sitting in a Lab/LD marginal. The poster count I have seen so far is:

Tory 1

Labour 3

Lib Dem gave up counting when I got to over 100 different posters.

Labour have done a sneaky trick though. hey have selected the same pantone of red as the local biggest estate agent and their posters are designed very similarly only the estate agent is red in the top half and white at the bottom and Labour is white at the top and red at the bottom half!

I never thought I'd see London Labour happy to be confused with a bunch of estate agents!

The Torygraph have let the semi house trained polecat out of its cage. Here's hoping Dave and his mates come out all Tebbit in the rest of the campaign!

[Glenn]

Can someone tell me what's so bad about the Tories?

Only one rule, no reference to Maggie Thatcher or the last Tory Government (which hasn't been in power for 13 years and had completely different people in it) and no reference to Cameron being 'posh' (which is just pathetic prejudice that would be allowed the other way around IMO).

BTW I'm not a tory boy and not sure who I'll vote for yet...it's just annoys me when people slag off the tories based on nothing more than the fact you're supposed to hate them right?

Simply. Those with the most accumulated wealth are likely to benefit most from them being in power, those with the least, will benefit least. It boils down to whether you think that's fair or not (or whether you think poor people are too lazy to generate wealth). I believe I personally would be better off financially under a Tory government, but I feel the country as a whole would be worse off, so they're unlikely to get my vote (as much as I hate Ed Balls and would love to see him lose).

[Ewood and I Would]

Simply. Those with the most accumulated wealth are likely to benefit most from them being in power, those with the least, will benefit least. It boils down to whether you think that's fair or not (or whether you think poor people are too lazy to generate wealth). I believe I personally would be better off financially under a Tory government, but I feel the country as a whole would be worse off, so they're unlikely to get my vote (as much as I hate Ed Balls and would love to see him lose).

Thanks for the reponse. Is that based on their Manifesto though or just the Stereotype of the Torries as from what I have seen of their policies this year the only one you could pin on them is the inheritence tax relief.

I'm not rich, I have massive debts and pretty crap job but at the same time I don't feel scared of the current bunch of Torries either. I'm not on benefits and do work for my money so if when you say "those with the least, will benefit least" you mean those people who can work but are happy to sit on their bums collecting benefits will have to go out and get a job then I'm all for it.