[Archived] Election

[sleepyjack]

Put aside your ingrained political bias for a minute and you'll find it's obvious that the majority of politicians are not all for the rich at all

If that's your belief then you're obviously not rich enough.

[Glenn]

Me too - but if its gets put into place....what does that mean? Blame Labour? Or Blame the rest for rushing it in??

It's a carve up (the phrase currently being used about it in "Business of the House" in parliament now) between the parties (or at least the power behind them, which in this case seems to be the like of Sony, EMI etc). I sat through all 5hrs yesterday and MP after MP admittedly that given the choice they would vote against it (or at least for delaying it until it can be properly debated) as whilst most of it is well intentioned, there are some horrible horrible flaws in it. It seems the whip for both Con and Lab have instructed their members to vote in favour. Last night the Lib Dems said they were going to vote against it, but voted in favour of taking it to a 3rd reading, whether they vote in favour today is yet to be seen.

See how your MP voted on the second reading (and if they showed up) http://debillitated.heroku.com/

It's no one party at fault, it's the whole damn system

[philipl]

Looks like Brown is getting lucky/being vindicated on the economy:

LONDON (SHARECAST) - Fears that Britain may experience a ‘double-dip’ and return to recession were allayed today by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which predicted the UK economy is set to grow faster than all but one of its G7 peers in the second quarter.

The OECD has forecast that the UK economy will grow at an annualised rate of 3.1% in the second quarter, in line with the UK government’s own projections announced at the time of the recent Budget.

Only Canada of the G7 countries is forecast to grow faster by the OECD than the UK in the second quarter. The OECD thinks the UK economy grew by around 2.0% (annualised) in the first three months of 2010, behind the growth rates forecast for Canada, the US and France, but ahead of Germany, Japan and Italy.

Some more good news on the UK economic front came from the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) in its economic survey, and the Office for National Statistics in its measurement of corporate profitability.

That last point is backed up by 'drog's post.

[Blue n White Rover]

Looks like Brown is getting lucky/being vindicated on the economy:

LONDON (SHARECAST) - Fears that Britain may experience a ‘double-dip’ and return to recession were allayed today by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which predicted the UK economy is set to grow faster than all but one of its G7 peers in the second quarter.

The OECD has forecast that the UK economy will grow at an annualised rate of 3.1% in the second quarter, in line with the UK government’s own projections announced at the time of the recent Budget.

Only Canada of the G7 countries is forecast to grow faster by the OECD than the UK in the second quarter. The OECD thinks the UK economy grew by around 2.0% (annualised) in the first three months of 2010, behind the growth rates forecast for Canada, the US and France, but ahead of Germany, Japan and Italy.

Some more good news on the UK economic front came from the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) in its economic survey, and the Office for National Statistics in its measurement of corporate profitability.

That last point is backed up by 'drog's post.

Yet the Conservatives want to take out £6bn from our economy this year and risk the recovery!

[broadsword]

How will they manage to take £6bn out?

[Mattyblue]

Yet the Conservatives want to take out £6bn from our economy this year and risk the recovery!

A recovery that will be painful who ever wins due to Brown's total wrecking of a booming economy.

Labour always leave office with the economy on its knees.

[only2garners]

Better still is the fact that apparently I now reside in the Ribble Valley...... rather than South Ribble, or even Preston. No, my MP for Farington is based in Longridge. He's really gonna give a crap about us isnt he......

Don't be silly Stu, he's based in Clitheroe, not Longridge.......

There'll be lots of talk about voter apathy this year as most voters are simply sick and tired of them all, their lies and behaviour. There's also no real difference in either main party. Remember Voting will only encourage them!

Well I would never have had you down as an anarchist Gordon....

[Blue n White Rover]

How will they manage to take £6bn out?

Increasing VAT for a start, and also reducing costs on National services.

[Al]

A recovery that will be painful who ever wins due to Brown's total wrecking of a booming economy.

Labour always leave office with the economy on its knees.

Everybody leaves office with the economy on it's knees. That's why they get voted out!

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Just who do you vote for when they all promise the earth but deliver nothing?

[thenodrog]

It seems the whip for both Con and Lab have instructed their members to vote in favour.

Lab Whip... Get it through we need the funding promised by the big corporations and it'll make no difference anyway... we are gonners.

Con Whip... Get it through, it's a messy one and not one we want on our hands. Anyway after the election we can blame it all on Labour.

Everybody leaves office with the economy on it's knees. That's why they get voted out!

Hardly. In 97 Blair inherited a very strong economy forged through the Thatcher years after the disasters of the 60's and 70's.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I just hope the Tories dont get it.... all for the rich them lot!

I also hope the digital bill doesnt get too 'big-brother' on the UK and its internet usage!

That’s rather naïve Hughsey. Labour have done didly squat to help the poor. In fact the gap between Rich>Poor has increased whilst New labour have been in power. New Labour’s courts big business and the middle classes, the fabled Labour for the working man notion disappered with old labour in the mid 90's.

The more prophetic question you must ask: is why none of the major parties are interested in improving the fortunes of the poor.

[broadsword]

Increasing VAT for a start, and also reducing costs on National services.

You mean cutting spending on public services? Every party will have to do this, have you seen the size of the deficit?

As for a VAT rise, they're denying it, see here: http://www.conservatives.com/News/News_stories/2008/11/Labours_secret_plan_to_increase_VAT_after_the_next_election.aspx

The Tories are opposing the increase in NI payments, so I'm not sure how you've come to your judgement.

[stuwilky]

That’s rather naïve Hughsey. Labour have done didly squat to help the poor. In fact the gap between Rich>Poor has increased whilst New labour have been in power. New Labour’s courts big business and the middle classes, the fabled Labour for the working man notion disappered with old labour in the mid 90's.

The more prophetic question you must ask: is why none of the major parties are interested in improving the fortunes of the poor.

There are a plethora of "studies" on this subject as it tends to be a little bit of a hot potato for a very short period of time every now and then.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies (for whatever its worth) have a wealth redistribution study which showed (when I last saw it a few weeks ago) that the poorest 10% have gained approximately 13% during the last 13 years, whilst the richest 10% have lost out to the the tune of 5%. Although it could be argued that 15% of not very much still equals not very much. Labour have attempted plenty to help the poorest aspects of society - the rich keep on getting richer though!

Your closing question is indeed a very good point, the one thing I am damn certain is that the Tories will increase the growth of the gap between rich and poor, probably starting with inheritance tax, they still on about increasing the threshold to £1m or something silly! Making sure more of the money stays with potential donors.

The vast majority make me sick!

[1864roverite]

This once great country is on its knees and is so because of one reason only.

LABOUR are responsible for it and some of you are still praising the idiot Brown and his lying, cheating sleazebag compatriots.

Some of you need to realise just how close this county is to bankruptcy and how close we are to losing our standing in the world.

Labour have almost ruined us. We have gone all soft and PC, we bow down to the goody goody brigade and no-one is willing to stand up and be counted. This is ALL down to Labour.

How anyone can think of supporting Brown is beyond all comprehension.

[Mattyblue]

This once great country is on its knees and is so because of one reason only.

LABOUR are responsible for it and some of you are still praising the idiot Brown and his lying, cheating sleazebag compatriots.

Some of you need to realise just how close this county is to bankruptcy and how close we are to losing our standing in the world.

Labour have almost ruined us. We have gone all soft and PC, we bow down to the goody goody brigade and no-one is willing to stand up and be counted. This is ALL down to Labour.

How anyone can think of supporting Brown is beyond all comprehension.

100%

New Labour has been an absolute disaster for this country.

Selling our gold reserves off at a pittance, raiding the private pension funds, bringing the economy to its knees, an open door immigration policy, they've done NOTHING about the benefit culture of this country- abandoning the 'working class' to fecklessness, taking us into wars- one illegal, both without proper equipment, removing our civil liberties, creating a ridiculous pc culture that frightens people from even opening their mouths.

I could go on and on and on!

[broadsword]

A lot of the money they've spent has been completely pished up the wall. Government IT projects for a start.

[Blue n White Rover]

You mean cutting spending on public services? Every party will have to do this, have you seen the size of the deficit?

As for a VAT rise, they're denying it, see here: http://www.conservatives.com/News/News_stories/2008/11/Labours_secret_plan_to_increase_VAT_after_the_next_election.aspx

The Tories are opposing the increase in NI payments, so I'm not sure how you've come to your judgement.

Course they will deny it. Tories are against the 1% increase in NI but want to increase money by raising VAT, they will deny this at this current moment in time as it will lose voters.

There is no chance they can cut £6bn this year by only cutting Public Services.

[Drummer Boy]

A lot of the money they've spent has been completely pished up the wall. Government IT projects for a start.

Much like the Tories did with the North Sea oil and privatisation revenues in the '80s

I'm not a political person - too long in the tooth and too jaded by the historical mismatch between politician promises and actions - but do remember the Tory years (79-97) as well as the New Labour era and am firmly of the opinion that one is no better than the other. If you are going to vote please bear this in mind

Overall, I reckon it's going to be pretty close this time around

Who will I be voting for? God knows!!

I'd like to see more independent candidates who are from the area in which they are standing and will represent the constituency without any party political whip to be honest as I believe they are more likely to take each issue on its relative merits. Regrettably, this is unlikely to happen.

[thenodrog]

The Institute of Fiscal Studies (for whatever its worth) have a wealth redistribution study which showed (when I last saw it a few weeks ago) that the poorest 10% have gained approximately 13% during the last 13 years, whilst the richest 10% have lost out to the the tune of 5%. Although it could be argued that 15% of not very much still equals not very much. Labour have attempted plenty to help the poorest aspects of society - the rich keep on getting richer though!

Somebody has to pay the taxes that the govt demands so I'm mighty glad they do! Aren't you Stu? Never mind your personal indoctrination if it weren't for the wealthmakers we'd sooner or later become a 3rd world country ourselves.

[thenodrog]

Just as an aside my brother in law came round last night. In the past 25 years we have frequently debated politics with him being a die hard Labour man and me being a complete apolitical cynic and Devils Advocate to boot.

This time he tells me he is voting BNP! He is so sick of the effects of the mass immigration that has impacted on Blackburn so heavily and he told the Labour canvasser who called yesterday as much. His swerve to the far right completely by-passing the tories and Lib Dems is typical of so many disgruntled Labour voters and imo a very underestimated local factor.

[pg]

The rich will always continue to get richer as long as you live in country ruled with a central bank issuing a debt-based fiat currency which allows the use of interest.

Interest rates

1) Create wealth concentration

2) Create the requirement for economic growth (because people have to find additional money in order to pay back the interest on their loans)

3) Create a competitive society rather than a co-operative one (i.e. we all compete to find the additional money to pay back our interest on our loans)

Which 'government' you have in power has very little to do with the nature of the society you live in...fundamentally it is shaped by the nature of the currency and financial system you are using.

I have noticed that several towns in England are creating their own non-interest accumulating local currencies in order to promote community trading and involvement.

Having said all that, if I was a British citizen I'd vote Lib Democrats, because their finance guy isn't some party hack..rather he's lived in the real world for a while and seems to know what he's talking about.

E.g.

From the New York Times

It was back in November 2003 that Cable asked Brown, then chancellor: “Is not the brutal truth that ... the growth of the British economy is sustained by consumer spending pinned against record levels of personal debt, which is secured, if at all, against house prices that the Banks of England describes as well above equilibrium level?”

Brown brushed Cable aside. Bubble tunes were still playing.

Now fast-forward five years to the great meltdown (U.K. version): banks collapsing, families asphyxiated by negative equity, Icelandic weirdness, the government to the rescue late in the day. And here we are, with the economy dominating the election — everyone realizes somebody’s got to pay the huge tab for that bailout someday — and a lionized Cable.

Labour didn't 'wreck' the economy...they just subscribed to the standard Washington Consensus that somehow 'financial services' can build a prosperous society. As if replacing investment in industry and manufacturing with speculation in assets bubbles would somehow lead to a happy ending.

[philipl]

Just as an aside my brother in law came round last night. In the past 25 years we have frequently debated politics with him being a die hard Labour man and me being a complete apolitical cynic and Devils Advocate to boot.

This time he tells me he is voting BNP! He is so sick of the effects of the mass immigration that has impacted on Blackburn so heavily and he told the Labour canvasser who called yesterday as much. His swerve to the far right completely by-passing the tories and Lib Dems is typical of so many disgruntled Labour voters and imo a very underestimated local factor.

Very interestingly, I am assisting/advising a business founded and owned by devout Muslims who are first generation Pakistani immigrants. Just jotting down a few characteristics of their business:

- family values

- old fashioned decency

- tolerant

- will do can do attitude

- pillars of the community reaching across all faiths and nationalities

- have NEDs of Russian and Ghanaian origins and British (white) Chairman and Deputy Chairman

- currently growing at 100% pa

Definitely need chucking out don't they?

[Paul]

Labour didn't 'wreck' the economy...they just subscribed to the standard Washington Consensus that somehow 'financial services' can build a prosperous society. As if replacing investment in industry and manufacturing with speculation in assets bubbles would somehow lead to a happy ending.

Exactly..................but as a nation we have a large section of population who have to find someone else to blame. It's part of our make-up. Doesn't matter who, just anyone but themselves.

[Mattyblue]

Very interestingly, I am assisting/advising a business founded and owned by devout Muslims who are first generation Pakistani immigrants. Just jotting down a few characteristics of their business:

- family values

- old fashioned decency

- tolerant

- will do can do attitude

- pillars of the community reaching across all faiths and nationalities

- have NEDs of Russian and Ghanaian origins and British (white) Chairman and Deputy Chairman

- currently growing at 100% pa

Definitely need chucking out don't they?

Not doubting that phil, little bit of a different issue in deprived northern towns though, is it not?