[Archived] Election

[JAL]

A story here in Blackburn is that Jack Straw has appologised to the muslim community on behalf himself and the country for raising the issue of the wearing of the burka debate.

Also another statistic from here in Blackburn is, that only 3% of Asian males over the age of 50 are working - cant wait till I hit 50 .

[Glenn]

I can't believe people are saying the PR is a bad idea because we'd get a handful of BNP MPs! If a proportion of the populace feel they are best represented by right wing racist scum, then it's only right they should be allowed the same representation (proportionally of course) as everyone else. You can't just have a democracy being made up of people you agree with.

The real problem isn't that PR would bring about BNP MPs, it's that some people (a worrying number) feel the BNP best represents them!

[koi]

I can't believe people are saying the PR is a bad idea because we'd get a handful of BNP MPs! If a proportion of the populace feel they are best represented by right wing racist scum, then it's only right they should be allowed the same representation (proportionally of course) as everyone else. You can't just have a democracy being made up of people you agree with.

The real problem isn't that PR would bring about BNP MPs, it's that some people (a worrying number) feel the BNP best represents them!

Not necessarily; The likely change will be a FPTP system for each constituency along with a second choice system. If an MP gets an overall majority (more votes than the others put together) then the seat goes to them. If there's no overall majority then second choice votes are counted to see if there's a majority, you could keep going on until a majority is achieved. Whilst this isn't the full PR system the Libs want it is a compromise that would maintain every constituency has an MP. The chances of a party like the BNP gaining a seat with this system is slim.

[Glenn]

Whilst I think STV and AV / AV Plus are better than FPTP in this day and age, I think think pure PR is better and more democratic.

On a related note, I'm just watching Kay Burley lose out to a great turnout from the guys at 38degrees on their "Fair Votes For All" campaign on Sky News.

..... oh and she plainly has no idea who Billy Brag is, she just thinks he's some random bloke in the crowd.

[den]

Whilst I think STV and AV / AV Plus are better than FPTP in this day and age, I think think pure PR is better and more democratic.

On a related note, I'm just watching Kay Burley lose out to a great turnout from the guys at 38degrees on their "Fair Votes For All" campaign on Sky News.

..... oh and she plainly has no idea who Billy Brag is, she just thinks he's some random bloke in the crowd.

Who's interested in Billy Bragg, when you can watch Kay Burley in high definition?

[RibbleValleyRover]

..... oh and she plainly has no idea who Billy Brag is, she just thinks he's some random bloke in the crowd.

If Billy Bragg thinks electoral reform is more an important issue than the dire economic situation we are in then he has sh1t for brains. Same thing can be said for his Miliband comments.

I understand the need for a discussion on electoral reform but the economy comes first in my view.

[tashor]

I can't believe the Lib-Dems are prepared to get into bed with the Cameronite public school clique. They'll be split from top to bottom. They'll be back to the days when all their M.P.s could fit in a London Taxi.

From Wikipedia..............

The Royal College of St. Peter in Westminster, almost always known as Westminster School, is one of Britain's leading independent schools, with the highest Oxbridge acceptance rate of any secondary school or college in the world. Located in the precincts of Westminster Abbey in central London, and with a history stretching back beyond the 12th century, the school's notable alumni include Ben Jonson, Nick Clegg, Robert Hooke, Christopher Wren, John Locke, Jeremy Bentham, and A. A. Milne. It is one of the original nine English public schools as defined by the Public Schools Act 1868.

[koi]

From Wikipedia..............

The Royal College of St. Peter in Westminster, almost always known as Westminster School, is one of Britain's leading independent schools, with the highest Oxbridge acceptance rate of any secondary school or college in the world. Located in the precincts of Westminster Abbey in central London, and with a history stretching back beyond the 12th century, the school's notable alumni include Ben Jonson, Nick Clegg, Robert Hooke, Christopher Wren, John Locke, Jeremy Bentham, and A. A. Milne. It is one of the original nine English public schools as defined by the Public Schools Act 1868.

Sounds like a good school that Clegg went to, a bargain really at £28,344 per year if you're boarding. Even more of a bargain is you live local, the fees are only £19,626 per year.

Funny fact about former Tory member Clegg; Louis Theroux was his 'fag' at University!

[koi]

If Billy Bragg thinks electoral reform is more an important issue than the dire economic situation we are in then he has sh1t for brains. Same thing can be said for his Miliband comments.

I understand the need for a discussion on electoral reform but the economy comes first in my view.

The day I take Billy Bragg and his 'red wedge' mates seriously is the day I give up on life itself.

[colin]

What - more deprived than Gorton South? There's a challenge for you Colin.

No problem Only2garners. I've done time in Moss Side when the riots were on in the early eighties. Gorton South is Nirvana in comparison.

And, thank you Le Chuck. I thought it was a statistic worth noting.

[Exiled_Rover]

I can't believe the Lib-Dems are prepared to get into bed with the Cameronite public school clique. They'll be split from top to bottom. They'll be back to the days when all their M.P.s could fit in a London Taxi.

I've no issues with the Lib Dems dealing with the Tories, they become king makers. Hopefully a voting system reform is top of their agenda.

[1864roverite]

..... oh and she plainly has no idea who Billy Brag is, she just thinks he's some random bloke in the crowd.

Not many do such is his lack of fame. Those who do know him know him as a to££er !!!

[BuckyRover]

I've no issues with the Lib Dems dealing with the Tories, they become king makers. Hopefully a voting system reform is top of their agenda.

I hope the main priority is the economy. The Tories should allow a referendum within this parliament and the LibDems need to work with the Tories to sort out the deficit asap.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I've no issues with the Lib Dems dealing with the Tories, they become king makers. Hopefully a voting system reform is top of their agenda.

Mmm, Tories and voting system reform in the same sentence, nice.

[joey_big_nose]

I've no issues with the Lib Dems dealing with the Tories, they become king makers. Hopefully a voting system reform is top of their agenda.

I am a Lib Dem and neither do I. I can't see how Labour have much of a hand to woo Clegg at all to be honest. Labour lost seats, Lib Dems lost seats, to be honest the only party with a mandate to govern are the Tories I am sad to say. A "coalition of the defeated" would be a direct route to major support erosion of Labout and Lib Dem amongst the public, constant challenges to the governments authority, ultimately leading to another lection down the road and a much improved Tory majority.

Therefore Clegg will get some sort of deal with the conservatives where Cameron will largely define the terms because he knows Clegg he can't form up with Labour. So I think PR will not be part of it unfortunately, although the 10k tax bracket could be. It will be a shaky alliance doomed to expire at some point.

Rather perversely this alliance could be rather good news for Labour as it will give them time to hoof out Brown, get in Milliband, rethink policy and get ready for another election which will probably occur in 6-18 months once the LibCon thing collapses (as it almost certainly will). That will be eminently winnable for Labour as the Tories seem unable to command a decent proportion of the vote in a time when they should have walked it at the polls, and they are going to have to cut public services which is going to devastate their popularity. Recent Lib Dems converts and marginal voters will come back to Labour. All rather depressing for the Lib Dems.

If I was in Conservative central office I would be quite worried now. It is very difficult to see how the Tories can get themselves into a long term secure position, and once PR gets introduced (which is surely a matter of time) they are going to be frozen out by the centre left which outnumbers them 6 to 4. The notion of letting Scotland and Wales become independent - or at least forming an English parliament - must be getting increasingly attractive as they could continue to be the party of government in those circumstances.

[koi]

Mmm, Tories and voting system reform in the same sentence, nice.

Presuming you're a Labour supporter can you answer me this; Why, in 13 years have Labour barely mentioned changing the voting system? Why, when in 1997 & 2001 when they had an untouchable majority did they not simply push something through parliament? Why now, after a massive defeat (and lets be honest the number of seats greatly flatters Labours performance) voting reform is something desperately needed? I'm not saying it needs looking at but come on, the only reason why Labour and their supporters are so keen is because they LOST, if they had got a majority it would be swept under the carpet. No?

As it stands we have a PM who is an unelected leader of his party, an unelected PM and now a defeated PM who has lead a party to their biggest loss in decades a result worse than that of Major's in 1997. Come on, get real GB and Labour have no right to be involved in governing the nation.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Presuming you're a Labour supporter can you answer me this; Why, in 13 years have Labour barely mentioned changing the voting system? Why, when in 1997 & 2001 when they had an untouchable majority did they not simply push something through parliament? Why now, after a massive defeat (and lets be honest the number of seats greatly flatters Labours performance) voting reform is something desperately needed? I'm not saying it needs looking at but come on, the only reason why Labour and their supporters are so keen is because they LOST, if they had got a majority it would be swept under the carpet. No?

As it stands we have a PM who is an unelected leader of his party, an unelected PM and now a defeated PM who has lead a party to their biggest loss in decades a result worse than that of Major's in 1997. Come on, get real GB and Labour have no right to be involved in governing the nation.

You know the answer to you question just as I do, desperate times require desperate measures. That will be the Labour parties view, it's not mine.

Joey in his previous contribution encapsulates my thoughts quite neatly. Strange that we obviously have radically different views but broadly come to the same conclusions.

[joey_big_nose]

As it stands we have a PM who is an unelected leader of his party, an unelected PM and now a defeated PM who has lead a party to their biggest loss in decades a result worse than that of Major's in 1997. Come on, get real GB and Labour have no right to be involved in governing the nation.

I am totally confused by statements like this?!I have heard this bandied around a lot recently.

1997

Conservative:- Seats 165 Popular Vote 30.7

Labour :- Seats 418 Popular Vote 41.2

2010

Conservative:- Seats 305 Popular Vote 36.1

Labour :- Seats 258 Popular Vote 29.0

Clearly the defeat for Conservatives in '97 was vastly more comprehensive than the Labour defeat this time round. The difference was 10.5% in 1997 to 7% today. Sure the absolute figure of support is slightly lower for Labour in 2010 than the Conservative in 1997 but the key figure is the difference rather than the absolute.

[broadsword]

But ... Labour got less votes than John Major's Conservatives got in 1997, that was the contention.

The fact that the Tories didn't have the same % that Tony Blair got in '97 shouldn't have any bearing on whether Brown stays in Number 10 or not. It's a question of whether he can form a solid coalition. That's all that matters now.

PS: Anyone know whatever happened to the "Golden Rule" - that the govt. would only borrow money to invest for future generations?

[koi]

I am totally confused by statements like this?!I have heard this bandied around a lot recently.

1997

Conservative:- Seats 165 Popular Vote 30.7

Labour :- Seats 418 Popular Vote 41.2

2010

Conservative:- Seats 305 Popular Vote 36.1

Labour :- Seats 258 Popular Vote 29.0

Clearly the defeat for Conservatives in '97 was vastly more comprehensive than the Labour defeat this time round. The difference was 10.5% in 1997 to 7% today. Sure the absolute figure of support is slightly lower for Labour in 2010 than the Conservative in 1997 but the key figure is the difference rather than the absolute.

Count the votes:

1997 -

Con - 9,600,943 votes resulting in 165 seats

2010 -

Lab - 8,604,358 votes resulting in 258 seats

[Amo]

When can we start looting?

[thenodrog]

Also another statistic from here in Blackburn is, that only 3% of Asian males over the age of 50 are working - cant wait till I hit 50 .

Chinese chippies I'd imagine.

[thenodrog]

I can't believe people are saying the PR is a bad idea because we'd get a handful of BNP MPs! If a proportion of the populace feel they are best represented by right wing racist scum, then it's only right they should be allowed the same representation (proportionally of course) as everyone else. You can't just have a democracy being made up of people you agree with.

The real problem isn't that PR would bring about BNP MPs, it's that some people (a worrying number) feel the BNP best represents them!

I don't think that's ever likely to happen whatever the system Glenn.

As far as the BNP is concerned thats something that I have said for years. My impressions in Blackburn are that the BNP are not the 'right wing racist scum' at all that you are stereotyping, but rather salt of the earth types and totally disenfranchised ex Labour voters who feel that they have been made into 2nd class citizens in their own town and even worse their own country. It's difficult to disagree in many cases. The old Trades union clubs used to be full of them.

I know of one case in particular, older than myself who was a 'tackler' in a cotton mill and who hardly had a day off in years. His jobs long gone, his prospects are poor and he can't see many prospects for his children. Until half a dozen years ago he'd voted Labour all his life, first Castle and then Straw and now he totally regrets doing so.

He still can't bring himself to vote Tory because a. of his upbringing and b. they made no difference to the situation in Blackburn when they were in power. So his vote goes to the BNP in desperation and exasperation. This man is as gentle and kind a man as you would find anywhere. To describe him as right wing racist scum Glenn is well wide of the mark.

[Glenn]

I was careful to word it that the BNP as a party are right wing scum, not necessarily the people who vote for them. I agree with you that many of their supporters are disenfranchised former labour supporters who feel the labour party no longer represent them, which highlights my real concern that the BNP is seen as the best option. These people need better representation than clowns who think "welcome Eire as equal partners" will fix the Irish troubles and think that re-branding themselves from openly-nazi to "ethno-nationalism" in 1999 means they have changed their core beliefs.

[thenodrog]

I was careful to word it that the BNP as a party are right wing scum, not necessarily the people who vote for them. I agree with you that many of their supporters are disenfranchised former labour supporters who feel the labour party no longer represent them, which highlights my real concern that the BNP is seen as the best option. These people need better representation than clowns who think "welcome Eire as equal partners" will fix the Irish troubles and think that re-branding themselves from openly-nazi to "ethno-nationalism" in 1999 means they have changed their core beliefs.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure that I'm buying that one Glenn. Right wing scum as I have just said is not wholly applicable. This issue transcends political leaning. Would you say that Gillian Duffy is right wing scum too? I'd assume not but Gordon Brown certainly does!

BNP=Cause and effect imo. It's old hat that the BNP today is a direct consequence of 40 years of mass immigration with little or no controls over quality, requirement or settlement. Even the most barmy, bleeding heart liberal must have been able to predict that widespread resentment would ensue and that this type of kick back would happen. So many people in northern towns were unhappy with governments importing people to take their jobs..... when the jobs were visibly drying up anyway. Even if they didn't take their jobs they served the purpose in keeping wages down. Witness the reaction to scab labour in any industrial dispute.

It was a cross bench act of pure political madness over many years which has never imo been properly punished. Heaths jackbooted destruction of Powells political career came across more as an act of political suicide by Powell in his determination to do his duty by taking the views of his Wolverhampton constituents and highlighting their concerns and issues to the Commons. This ultimately lead to the opposite effect as any discussion on the subject has now become taboo amongst our massed ranks of career politicians and the reason. You are right to say that people need better representation but the downfall of Enoch Powell above is the reason they will never get it through mainstream politicians, and that banishment of one of the pillars of democracy the principle of freedom of speech is the fatal flaw of our democracy.

Just like the eu migrants who come to fulfill the lower paid jobs now are obviously causing concern and when a little old lady asks a simple question through such concern she is immedietley labelled as a bigot. When the Labour Prime Minister is caught out using those terms about a normal person who is old enough to have seen many such changes and with genuine worries then it's no wonder that an increasing number of people feel let down and disenfranchised by the mainstream politicians is it?

I notice the country never saw fit to import cheap, low cost politicians did it?