[Archived] Election

[cn174]

So you are saying basically that the educational system in this country is not working. Handing out A+ grades willy nilly really is devaluing the achievements and future prospects of the exceptional pupils, as well as denying future employees the best talents?

Thats what most people of my generation already know.

The same generation of people who created the system.

[FourLaneBlue]

Many people in Education fully agree as well.

What is the point in having far more students getting the top grades? They can't all get into the universities they want. It means that the truly talented are in a fight for the best places with those who they may have perhaps done better than previously.

The A* grade was brought into to try and remedy the situation somewhat. Soon, they will likely have to bring in a double A star.

[FourLaneBlue]

The same generation of people who created the system.

Hell of a rebuttal that one, Clare!

[berkshireblue]

I hate debating politics but wanted to vent this for a while, so here goes…

I've been fortunate enough to have missed all but 6 months of Labour having left England shortly before that irksome grinning buffoon and his expensive bull$hit machine came to power. I actually thought they might be alright but soon realised it was a wave of rhetoric and false euphoria created by shortsighted fools with very large chips on their shoulders.

Sadly I now live in a Country that was stupid enough to vote Labour back a few years ago (which everyone is regretting now). I am no die-hard Tory - I vote for whoever has the best chance of keeping the leftist muppets out, which I guess makes me Tory by default. Why do I despise them so? Well:

1. They are a Fascist party. It is ironic how the left always likes to label the right as the Fascists when it is actually THEY who are the Fascists. Labour (here and in the UK) want to tell me how I can and can't live and what I can and can't say. For fear of offence celebrating Xmas is now practically illegal, daily life consists of jumping through hoops to avoid pathetic council fines and I fear the next social-engineering experiment that will be hoisted on society by our Leftie Overlords - case in point Labour want 50% of our ‘yoof’ to go to University - did they ever bother asking anyone? What if 40 of that 50% don't actually want to go and spend 3 years getting into debt for a worthless piece of paper and maybe go and learn a skill and start their life off debt-free? Why is there a skills crisis? Cos of stupid social-engineering policies like this because envious lefties think everyone who is capable of going to Uni is an upper class toff and this MUST be balanced out by sending two E’s and an F at A-Level kids to “University” (ie. former Polytechnic) to get a degree in social theory or surfing. This policy has created nothing but resentment, debt and shattered illusions amongst millions of British youth.

2. They and their supporters are incredibly myopic and riddled with Alzheimers - Jim Mk2...say no more...actually I will. There was a world that existed before 1979 Jim, it wasn't very nice, I was young but I remember the smell. You also like to blame the GFC on the banks, did it not occur to you that the buck stops much further back with just one man? This man being a typical lefty social-engineer, cast from the same mould as Blair. Yes, Mr William Jefferson Clinton, architect of the GFC - the man who FORCED banks to loan money to people who could not afford homes. Just to try and make himself look good (another Blairesque trait) he cost us all, the poor still didn't get their homes, the banks packaged up crap (they were FORCED to) and sold it off pretending it was gold. We all suffered. In fact it was probably the biggest transfer of wealth to the upper classes ever known to man! So much for the left favouring the working class eh Jim?

3. They LIE, LIE, LIE. Just to get into power usually. They spend millions on spin doctors and BS merchants to ensure they stay onside with the people who are either too intellectually inept or too busy to figure things out for themselves and see past the bull. Yes politicians lie, but Labour have made careers out of it.

4. Labour politics is the politics of ENVY. They ENVY the rich. The right does not ENVY the working class, they favour the middle and upper class before the working class. And so they should. I do not hate my boss. He is rich but he also gave me, and many others like me, my job. I aspire to be like him. If someone comes along, takes his money and gives it to some workshy layabout to do nowt he will not be motivated to make money and give more people jobs. He might even take my job away. It makes sense that the middle and upper class should be allowed to thrive because they create the jobs and the wealth, they keep the wheels turning to a far greater degree than the working class do. If we slogged every rich man 100% tax and shared it out do you think we would be any better off? We might get a slightly nicer TV each and wait 5 mins less to see a Doctor but the numbers of rich are so small and their wealth so tiny in comparison to the middle and working class that it would make very little difference if they suddenly handed all their money over, infact it would cause more harm than good (as the earlier posts with the 10 beer drinkers analogy points out.) This is why EVERY Labour Government brings the economy to its knees and leaves a legacy of huge debt (cleared up by the Tories and then they get kicked out and the whole charade begins again!)

5. Through their social engineering they desire everyone to be equal. This ideal of equality for all has translated to "no one can lose", a policy which has decimated our once world-leading education system, produced an entire generation of jumped-up, ungrateful, rude upstarts with a ridiculously high sense of entitlement and promoted a culture of "why bother - the Government will look after me."

The biggest joke is that their “everyone is equal” ideal applies to everyone EXCEPT THEMSELVES!

Oh and Hitler was a social engineer you know…

6. Forcing equality is unnatural - it cannot be done, we are humans, it goes against the laws of nature. Marx failed to see this, thus Communism failed. The system can, however, be monitored so that no one group gains an unassailable advantage over the others - something I believe the Tories are better at doing than Labour, but they don't (and possibly can't) get it exactly right.

7. WASTE! Labour Governments spend billions unnecessarily on futile projects to try and boost their public image. Case in point here in Aus - hundreds of millions have gone to big building companies (again Labour filling the pockets of the rich!) who overcharged for school building programs. $1m for an empty pre-fab library that should have cost a quarter of that - with books. Same again with an idiotic roof insulation scheme dreamt up by the lead singer of Midnight Oil, Peter “How can we sleep while our beds are burning” Garrett, 4 people dead as a result of thousands of house fires the scheme has caused. The Tories say they want to cut spending and Labour try to scare people into thinking they will lose services, cancer drugs etc. Actually under the Tories you would probably get more and better ones since they won't be spending 1 billion to employ 1000 middle managers and management consultants to approve and manage the changing of a lightbulb on the desk of the 1000 people employed to sharpen the pencils for the 10 people employed to approve these drugs.

8. I prefer the colour blue :-)

9. My IQ is more than 80 so I cannot vote Labour. I have coined a saying though based on that “socialist at 20” saying – “Everyone must vote Labour once in their life to realise their mistake.”

10. I would like to come home and be happy to be back rather than wanting to weep with despair at how quickly the country I grew up in has been destroyed (which is what I did last time I was home).

Bottom line is that Labour squeeze the rich to give handouts to the poor, this affects the hard working people in the middle who suffer from lower wages (from bosses who are being squeezed), fewer jobs (again from bosses who are being squeezed) and higher taxes – usually stealth – to fund Labour supporters to sit around doing nowt and talking rubbish. Labour turn the safety net into a fishing net, destroy jobs through their idiotic social engineering policies, drive away talent and import no-hopers, hit the hardest working areas of society and drive debt into stratospheric levels.

Karl Popper once said that;

“the piecemeal engineer will adopt the method of searching for, and fighting against, the greatest and most urgent evil of society, rather than searching for, and fighting for, its greatest ultimate good”

This is the core difference between the left and right.

I am utterly delighted that Labour are gone and should the next 5 years work well they might be gone for good. Next election - third place for them, if they’re lucky.

Good riddance and good luck to the coalition.

Glad to see there is an Aussie rovers supporter with a brain cell

Refreshing change from JimMK2's stoodge SouthAussie

This thread is now out of date so I am off on Summer recess

Good news is Jim's mob lost - good ridance and lets hope they never come back even with a Cameron clone named Milliband

[Mattyblue]

Glad to see there is an Aussie rovers supporter with a brain cell

Refreshing change from JimMK2's stoodge SouthAussie

This thread is now out of date so I am off on Summer recess

Good news is Jim's mob lost - good ridance and lets hope they never come back even with a Cameron clone named Milliband

Berkshire?

Cotswolds?

anti 'fair' Labour?

Champagne Charlie obviously.

[tony gale's mic]

I hate debating politics but wanted to vent this for a while, so here goes…

I've been fortunate enough to have missed all but 6 months of Labour having left England shortly before that irksome grinning buffoon and his expensive bull$hit machine came to power. I actually thought they might be alright but soon realised it was a wave of rhetoric and false euphoria created by shortsighted fools with very large chips on their shoulders.

Sadly I now live in a Country that was stupid enough to vote Labour back a few years ago (which everyone is regretting now). I am no die-hard Tory - I vote for whoever has the best chance of keeping the leftist muppets out, which I guess makes me Tory by default. Why do I despise them so? Well:

1. They are a Fascist party. It is ironic how the left always likes to label the right as the Fascists when it is actually THEY who are the Fascists. Labour (here and in the UK) want to tell me how I can and can't live and what I can and can't say. For fear of offence celebrating Xmas is now practically illegal, daily life consists of jumping through hoops to avoid pathetic council fines and I fear the next social-engineering experiment that will be hoisted on society by our Leftie Overlords - case in point Labour want 50% of our ‘yoof’ to go to University - did they ever bother asking anyone? What if 40 of that 50% don't actually want to go and spend 3 years getting into debt for a worthless piece of paper and maybe go and learn a skill and start their life off debt-free? Why is there a skills crisis? Cos of stupid social-engineering policies like this because envious lefties think everyone who is capable of going to Uni is an upper class toff and this MUST be balanced out by sending two E’s and an F at A-Level kids to “University” (ie. former Polytechnic) to get a degree in social theory or surfing. This policy has created nothing but resentment, debt and shattered illusions amongst millions of British youth.

2. They and their supporters are incredibly myopic and riddled with Alzheimers - Jim Mk2...say no more...actually I will. There was a world that existed before 1979 Jim, it wasn't very nice, I was young but I remember the smell. You also like to blame the GFC on the banks, did it not occur to you that the buck stops much further back with just one man? This man being a typical lefty social-engineer, cast from the same mould as Blair. Yes, Mr William Jefferson Clinton, architect of the GFC - the man who FORCED banks to loan money to people who could not afford homes. Just to try and make himself look good (another Blairesque trait) he cost us all, the poor still didn't get their homes, the banks packaged up crap (they were FORCED to) and sold it off pretending it was gold. We all suffered. In fact it was probably the biggest transfer of wealth to the upper classes ever known to man! So much for the left favouring the working class eh Jim?

3. They LIE, LIE, LIE. Just to get into power usually. They spend millions on spin doctors and BS merchants to ensure they stay onside with the people who are either too intellectually inept or too busy to figure things out for themselves and see past the bull. Yes politicians lie, but Labour have made careers out of it.

4. Labour politics is the politics of ENVY. They ENVY the rich. The right does not ENVY the working class, they favour the middle and upper class before the working class. And so they should. I do not hate my boss. He is rich but he also gave me, and many others like me, my job. I aspire to be like him. If someone comes along, takes his money and gives it to some workshy layabout to do nowt he will not be motivated to make money and give more people jobs. He might even take my job away. It makes sense that the middle and upper class should be allowed to thrive because they create the jobs and the wealth, they keep the wheels turning to a far greater degree than the working class do. If we slogged every rich man 100% tax and shared it out do you think we would be any better off? We might get a slightly nicer TV each and wait 5 mins less to see a Doctor but the numbers of rich are so small and their wealth so tiny in comparison to the middle and working class that it would make very little difference if they suddenly handed all their money over, infact it would cause more harm than good (as the earlier posts with the 10 beer drinkers analogy points out.) This is why EVERY Labour Government brings the economy to its knees and leaves a legacy of huge debt (cleared up by the Tories and then they get kicked out and the whole charade begins again!)

5. Through their social engineering they desire everyone to be equal. This ideal of equality for all has translated to "no one can lose", a policy which has decimated our once world-leading education system, produced an entire generation of jumped-up, ungrateful, rude upstarts with a ridiculously high sense of entitlement and promoted a culture of "why bother - the Government will look after me."

The biggest joke is that their “everyone is equal” ideal applies to everyone EXCEPT THEMSELVES!

Oh and Hitler was a social engineer you know…

6. Forcing equality is unnatural - it cannot be done, we are humans, it goes against the laws of nature. Marx failed to see this, thus Communism failed. The system can, however, be monitored so that no one group gains an unassailable advantage over the others - something I believe the Tories are better at doing than Labour, but they don't (and possibly can't) get it exactly right.

7. WASTE! Labour Governments spend billions unnecessarily on futile projects to try and boost their public image. Case in point here in Aus - hundreds of millions have gone to big building companies (again Labour filling the pockets of the rich!) who overcharged for school building programs. $1m for an empty pre-fab library that should have cost a quarter of that - with books. Same again with an idiotic roof insulation scheme dreamt up by the lead singer of Midnight Oil, Peter “How can we sleep while our beds are burning” Garrett, 4 people dead as a result of thousands of house fires the scheme has caused. The Tories say they want to cut spending and Labour try to scare people into thinking they will lose services, cancer drugs etc. Actually under the Tories you would probably get more and better ones since they won't be spending 1 billion to employ 1000 middle managers and management consultants to approve and manage the changing of a lightbulb on the desk of the 1000 people employed to sharpen the pencils for the 10 people employed to approve these drugs.

8. I prefer the colour blue :-)

9. My IQ is more than 80 so I cannot vote Labour. I have coined a saying though based on that “socialist at 20” saying – “Everyone must vote Labour once in their life to realise their mistake.”

10. I would like to come home and be happy to be back rather than wanting to weep with despair at how quickly the country I grew up in has been destroyed (which is what I did last time I was home).

Bottom line is that Labour squeeze the rich to give handouts to the poor, this affects the hard working people in the middle who suffer from lower wages (from bosses who are being squeezed), fewer jobs (again from bosses who are being squeezed) and higher taxes – usually stealth – to fund Labour supporters to sit around doing nowt and talking rubbish. Labour turn the safety net into a fishing net, destroy jobs through their idiotic social engineering policies, drive away talent and import no-hopers, hit the hardest working areas of society and drive debt into stratospheric levels.

Karl Popper once said that;

“the piecemeal engineer will adopt the method of searching for, and fighting against, the greatest and most urgent evil of society, rather than searching for, and fighting for, its greatest ultimate good”

This is the core difference between the left and right.

I am utterly delighted that Labour are gone and should the next 5 years work well they might be gone for good. Next election - third place for them, if they’re lucky.

Good riddance and good luck to the coalition.

I'm sure you do hate debating politics because if you came up with half that rubbish in a real life conversation anyone with half a brain would absolutely destroy your arguments. In an internet forum setting it's a lot easier to come out with turdbursts like that relatively unchallenged, or to ignore the bits where people challenge you. For a start you equate New Labour and the US Democrats with the left when in fact they're at the very most centrist parties, whilst some might argue the Democrats if judged purely on policies rather than judged relative to their peers are probably about as left wing as the Tory party in this country.

1. The left are not fascists. Let's have a look at one definition of fascism.

Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong. They claim that culture is created by collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus rejects individualism. In viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they claim that pluralism is a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety. They advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.

Fascists reject and resist autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated. They consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and threat to the nation.

Now, I would not be so brain dead to label the Tory party as fascist; they clearly are not. However, how many of these apply to the left? Well..New Labour did participate in wars (much opposed by the actual left) but then this was supported by the Tories and the wars were instigated by a strong right wing force in the Republican party.

I think you'll find the later parts of that paragraph most analagous to our British National Party or the Nazi party - far right organisations.

So whilst I'm not as much of an idiot as you to label Labour or the Tories as fascist, it's quite clear those are very much far right ideologies and that if one was closer to the fascist side of things, it would have to be the Tories.

Celebrating Xmas is NOT practically illegal by the way, comments like this are the hallmark of the moron. The last time I checked Xmas banners were going up earlier and earlier every year to the point where I'm surprised they're not even up now. The only thing about your post I agree with is about university targets...

2. Yes, you can trace the global financial crisis all the way back to one man. It's THAT simple. It's not remotely a highly complex and multifactorial situation that requires people with more complex critical faculties than you've just demonstrated to understand. If what Clinton did what so OBVIOUSLY going to result in a global financial crisis, then why didn't that bastion of right wing politics George W Bush or any of his economic advisers do something to rectify the situation in the 7 years he had before it all hit the fan? I'm not saying what Clinton is blameless or even that his actions were the best thing, but poor policies are found on both the right and the left. And the light touch regulation of the banks that the right (and New Labour) favour? No no, blame it all on the left...

3. The Tories don't lie at all, do they? Every political party from every part of the spectrum lies. And only the left employs spin doctors? Really? Look up the name Steve Hilton. Spin doctors are a modern creation due to the exponential expansion of the media over the last twenty years. It just so happened that Labour came into power when this all going on - the Tories don't employ spin any less than Labour do and no previous Labour government before New Labour employed spin doctors. Another bit of absolute rubbish.

4. Labour/left wing politics is the politics of envy is it? Is that why there's numerous billionaires who are staunch Labour supporters/Democrats in the US? The vast majority of the left (except for the nutcases) would never advocate 100% tax on anyone so stop coming out with such @#/?. Your definitions of "class", if used in the traditional British sense, are also massively confused. The middle and the working class both keep society turning - the working class are essential in the "blue collar" jobs required to keep our society running, whereas the middle class include the professionals and people including your boss who may be enormously wealthy but in England at least is still considered middle class, unless he is astronomically wealthy (ie at least in the tens-hundreds of millions), or born into the upper class. Upper class comprises either of the astronomically wealthy or, more commonly, the landed gentry and descendents of noblemen who have inherited fortunes and barely need to work. What exactly do they contribute to this country? Most sensible people on the left wing argue that someone earning £1 million a year isnt 50 times more talented or 50 times more hard working than someone earning £20,000 a year (unless compared across a similar profession maybe). Therefore setting a new tax rate for them - such as this 50% rate - still leaves them with huge fortunes to take home but takes off a little more and helps to improve our hospitals and schools so maybe kids who weren't born into money will have a decent start in life. Compare that to the Oxford English Dictionary definition for "envy" and get back to me.

5. You actually haven't explained this "social engineering" thing at all but left wing politics is about the equality of opportunity. Communism is about equality of outcomes but those are two very different things. Good thing you can point to an "entire generation" of jumped up, ungrateful, rude upstarts, I'd hate to think you were generalising or being a bit simple. If you look at which countries in Europe are consistently ranked around the top for their school systems, it's the Scandinavian countries which are far more left wing than we are.

6. None of the parties is trying to force equality. I agree with your point about Communism, however surely providing public money for universal access to good schools, education and, for those who can't afford it, housing is far more likely to make sure one group doesnt have this advantage?

7. Public spending is not the same as public wastage. The United States as a country spends 16% of its' GDP on a healthcare system rated by the WHO as significantly worse than here where we spend 8% of our GDP. Remind me again which party were the architects of the NHS? If we left it up to the Tories we'd have ended up with a similar situation to our friends across the pond. Just because individual bad decisions have occured it doesn't mean the whole system is to blame.

8. -

9. You haven't really demonstrated this. Still I'm sure the scores of people a hell of a lot brighter than you are who have voted for left wing parties (I include myself in this bracket, more as a comment on your apparent intelligence than my own) will be enlightened by your views.

10. The UK isn't destroyed. Hell, even Greece isn't destroyed. Even under Thatcher this country wasn't destroyed. But millions of lives practically were thanks to the compassionate nature of her politics.

The Tories were going to get in again some time, but I'm a little relieved that at least we have a party who will temper their most Thatcherite tendencies. The funny thing about your post is that you make the fundamental mistake of equating New Labour with a left wing government. They were at the most centrist. They had some good points (the minimum wage, the improvements in the NHS on waiting lists and thousands more doctors/nurses) but also some bad points. However many of these bad points (underregulation of the financial system, spending billions on unnecessary wars) are things which either the Tories supported or policies synonymous with a Tory government. It's that which makes me worry about the next five years and hopefully will make the Labour Party find their true identity again.

[thenodrog]

The same generation of people who created the system.

Nope... the generation before was responsible. Not that that is an excuse for successive generations stubbornly perpetuating a mistake.

[thenodrog]

4. ...........Most sensible people on the left wing argue that someone earning £1 million a year isnt 50 times more talented or 50 times more hard working than someone earning £20,000 a year (unless compared across a similar profession maybe). Therefore setting a new tax rate for them - such as this 50% rate - still leaves them with huge fortunes to take home but takes off a little more and helps to improve our hospitals and schools so maybe kids who weren't born into money will have a decent start in life. Compare that to the Oxford English Dictionary definition for "envy" and get back to me.

How can it be fair that the person in your example who earns 50x what another earns then is expected to pay 100x the first persons tax? Lets be honest it isn't.

We already have current persecutions ageism, sexism, racism I suggest that now you are exhibiting envyism.

btw I'm not sure that I understand the term 'working class' anymore..... and I don't think you do. It's not all that clear a definition nowadays

[tony gale's mic]

How can it be fair that the person in your example who earns 50x what another earns then is expected to pay 100x the first persons tax? Lets be honest it isn't.

We already have current persecutions ageism, sexism, racism I suggest that now you are exhibiting envyism.

btw I'm not sure that I understand the term 'working class' anymore..... and I don't think you do. It's not all that clear a definition nowadays

"envyism" would be displaying discrimination towards people based on their levels of envy. You make no sense.

And of course it's fair. The poorer person isn't earning the kind of money to pay the kind of tax the person earning 50 times their amount can. The end result would be that person B, rather than taking home, say 50x as much as person A, might take 40 times as much. Is that really the kind of thing that strikes you as grossly unfair?

[thenodrog]

"envyism" would be displaying discrimination towards people based on their levels of envy. You make no sense.

And of course it's fair. The poorer person isn't earning the kind of money to pay the kind of tax the person earning 50 times their amount can. The end result would be that person B, rather than taking home, say 50x as much as person A, might take 40 times as much. Is that really the kind of thing that strikes you as grossly unfair?

Yes.

[tony gale's mic]

Yes.

Personally, I see neglected healthcare and education systems as much more unfair than someone taking home £800,000 rather than £1,000,000 a year; but each to his own.

[tashor]

I hate debating politics but wanted to vent this for a while, so here goes…

I've been fortunate enough to have missed all but 6 months of Labour having left England shortly before that irksome grinning buffoon and his expensive bull$hit machine came to power. I actually thought they might be alright but soon realised it was a wave of rhetoric and false euphoria created by shortsighted fools with very large chips on their shoulders.

Sadly I now live in a Country that was stupid enough to vote Labour back a few years ago (which everyone is regretting now). I am no die-hard Tory - I vote for whoever has the best chance of keeping the leftist muppets out, which I guess makes me Tory by default. Why do I despise them so? Well:

1. They are a Fascist party. It is ironic how the left always likes to label the right as the Fascists when it is actually THEY who are the Fascists. Labour (here and in the UK) want to tell me how I can and can't live and what I can and can't say. For fear of offence celebrating Xmas is now practically illegal, daily life consists of jumping through hoops to avoid pathetic council fines and I fear the next social-engineering experiment that will be hoisted on society by our Leftie Overlords - case in point Labour want 50% of our ‘yoof’ to go to University - did they ever bother asking anyone? What if 40 of that 50% don't actually want to go and spend 3 years getting into debt for a worthless piece of paper and maybe go and learn a skill and start their life off debt-free? Why is there a skills crisis? Cos of stupid social-engineering policies like this because envious lefties think everyone who is capable of going to Uni is an upper class toff and this MUST be balanced out by sending two E’s and an F at A-Level kids to “University” (ie. former Polytechnic) to get a degree in social theory or surfing. This policy has created nothing but resentment, debt and shattered illusions amongst millions of British youth.

2. They and their supporters are incredibly myopic and riddled with Alzheimers - Jim Mk2...say no more...actually I will. There was a world that existed before 1979 Jim, it wasn't very nice, I was young but I remember the smell. You also like to blame the GFC on the banks, did it not occur to you that the buck stops much further back with just one man? This man being a typical lefty social-engineer, cast from the same mould as Blair. Yes, Mr William Jefferson Clinton, architect of the GFC - the man who FORCED banks to loan money to people who could not afford homes. Just to try and make himself look good (another Blairesque trait) he cost us all, the poor still didn't get their homes, the banks packaged up crap (they were FORCED to) and sold it off pretending it was gold. We all suffered. In fact it was probably the biggest transfer of wealth to the upper classes ever known to man! So much for the left favouring the working class eh Jim?

3. They LIE, LIE, LIE. Just to get into power usually. They spend millions on spin doctors and BS merchants to ensure they stay onside with the people who are either too intellectually inept or too busy to figure things out for themselves and see past the bull. Yes politicians lie, but Labour have made careers out of it.

4. Labour politics is the politics of ENVY. They ENVY the rich. The right does not ENVY the working class, they favour the middle and upper class before the working class. And so they should. I do not hate my boss. He is rich but he also gave me, and many others like me, my job. I aspire to be like him. If someone comes along, takes his money and gives it to some workshy layabout to do nowt he will not be motivated to make money and give more people jobs. He might even take my job away. It makes sense that the middle and upper class should be allowed to thrive because they create the jobs and the wealth, they keep the wheels turning to a far greater degree than the working class do. If we slogged every rich man 100% tax and shared it out do you think we would be any better off? We might get a slightly nicer TV each and wait 5 mins less to see a Doctor but the numbers of rich are so small and their wealth so tiny in comparison to the middle and working class that it would make very little difference if they suddenly handed all their money over, infact it would cause more harm than good (as the earlier posts with the 10 beer drinkers analogy points out.) This is why EVERY Labour Government brings the economy to its knees and leaves a legacy of huge debt (cleared up by the Tories and then they get kicked out and the whole charade begins again!)

5. Through their social engineering they desire everyone to be equal. This ideal of equality for all has translated to "no one can lose", a policy which has decimated our once world-leading education system, produced an entire generation of jumped-up, ungrateful, rude upstarts with a ridiculously high sense of entitlement and promoted a culture of "why bother - the Government will look after me."

The biggest joke is that their “everyone is equal” ideal applies to everyone EXCEPT THEMSELVES!

Oh and Hitler was a social engineer you know…

6. Forcing equality is unnatural - it cannot be done, we are humans, it goes against the laws of nature. Marx failed to see this, thus Communism failed. The system can, however, be monitored so that no one group gains an unassailable advantage over the others - something I believe the Tories are better at doing than Labour, but they don't (and possibly can't) get it exactly right.

7. WASTE! Labour Governments spend billions unnecessarily on futile projects to try and boost their public image. Case in point here in Aus - hundreds of millions have gone to big building companies (again Labour filling the pockets of the rich!) who overcharged for school building programs. $1m for an empty pre-fab library that should have cost a quarter of that - with books. Same again with an idiotic roof insulation scheme dreamt up by the lead singer of Midnight Oil, Peter “How can we sleep while our beds are burning” Garrett, 4 people dead as a result of thousands of house fires the scheme has caused. The Tories say they want to cut spending and Labour try to scare people into thinking they will lose services, cancer drugs etc. Actually under the Tories you would probably get more and better ones since they won't be spending 1 billion to employ 1000 middle managers and management consultants to approve and manage the changing of a lightbulb on the desk of the 1000 people employed to sharpen the pencils for the 10 people employed to approve these drugs.

8. I prefer the colour blue :-)

9. My IQ is more than 80 so I cannot vote Labour. I have coined a saying though based on that “socialist at 20” saying – “Everyone must vote Labour once in their life to realise their mistake.”

10. I would like to come home and be happy to be back rather than wanting to weep with despair at how quickly the country I grew up in has been destroyed (which is what I did last time I was home).

Bottom line is that Labour squeeze the rich to give handouts to the poor, this affects the hard working people in the middle who suffer from lower wages (from bosses who are being squeezed), fewer jobs (again from bosses who are being squeezed) and higher taxes – usually stealth – to fund Labour supporters to sit around doing nowt and talking rubbish. Labour turn the safety net into a fishing net, destroy jobs through their idiotic social engineering policies, drive away talent and import no-hopers, hit the hardest working areas of society and drive debt into stratospheric levels.

Karl Popper once said that;

“the piecemeal engineer will adopt the method of searching for, and fighting against, the greatest and most urgent evil of society, rather than searching for, and fighting for, its greatest ultimate good”

This is the core difference between the left and right.

I am utterly delighted that Labour are gone and should the next 5 years work well they might be gone for good. Next election - third place for them, if they’re lucky.

Good riddance and good luck to the coalition.

Hell......thanks mate.......

I'd almost forgotten why I am a Libertarian Tory............

But you have reminded me why...........

CHEERS ..............

ps - fleuurk off you dictatorial leftist fascist browniite overlord schumblerers........

[SouthAussieRover]

Glad to see there is an Aussie rovers supporter with a brain cell

Refreshing change from JimMK2's stoodge SouthAussie

This thread is now out of date so I am off on Summer recess

Good news is Jim's mob lost - good ridance and lets hope they never come back even with a Cameron clone named Milliband

You're all class, blue berk.

Enjoy the one term your party will serve hopefully followed by many more years in opposition.

[thenodrog]

Personally, I see neglected healthcare and education systems as much more unfair than someone taking home £800,000 rather than £1,000,000 a year; but each to his own.

Hang on!!! Labour have been bragging all the election campaign over and over about how much better they've made the NHS and schools since 1997. You obviously now think the complete opposite. Why didn't you say so before the election?

[thenodrog]

Personally, I see neglected healthcare and education systems as much more unfair than someone taking home £800,000 rather than £1,000,000 a year; but each to his own.

'Each to his own'!! I bloody well wish it was. I pay private health insurance and I'm paying a kings ransom to get my kids through university. On the flip side I've inherited diddly squat, I've worked all my life since 21, brought up 2 kids in line with my own financial situation at the time so please tell me why tf should I pay for anybody else? Like most people I don't mind stumping up for people in really unfortunate circumstances but to subsidise an increasing sector of parasitical, idle, drug raddled, work shy, 'breeders' who are seriously taking the p1ss out of society does bloody well grieve me.

[SouthAussieRover]

'Each to his own'!! I bloody well wish it was. I pay private health insurance and I'm paying a kings ransom to get my kids through university. On the flip side I've inherited diddly squat, I've worked all my life since 21, brought up 2 kids in line with my own financial situation at the time so please tell me why tf should I pay for anybody else? Like most people I don't mind stumping up for people in really unfortunate circumstances but to subsidise an increasing sector of parasitical, idle, drug raddled, work shy, 'breeders' who are seriously taking the p1ss out of society does bloody well grieve me.

Since you were 21?

You lazy @#/?...I've been doing the same since I was 14.

[tony gale's mic]

'Each to his own'!! I bloody well wish it was. I pay private health insurance and I'm paying a kings ransom to get my kids through university. On the flip side I've inherited diddly squat, I've worked all my life since 21, brought up 2 kids in line with my own financial situation at the time so please tell me why tf should I pay for anybody else? Like most people I don't mind stumping up for people in really unfortunate circumstances but to subsidise an increasing sector of parasitical, idle, drug raddled, work shy, 'breeders' who are seriously taking the p1ss out of society does bloody well grieve me.

You do realise the vast majority of your tax money DOESN'T go towards benefits?

And that for that which does go on benefits, a lot of it goes towards people who actually deserve it and that whilst the minority you talk about in your post is still too large, it still is just that.

For one, whatever king's ransom you paid for your kids to go to university would have been far, far more if our universities weren't so subsidised by the state. Look how much it costs a kid to go through university in the US, for example.

Benefits are the easiest and most emotive way for those on the right to complain about taxes, but a welfare state is a hallmark of every developed society on this planet and whilst there's some that abuse this system, they still comprise just a tiny, tiny fraction of the tax money that you pay.

[tony gale's mic]

Hang on!!! Labour have been bragging all the election campaign over and over about how much better they've made the NHS and schools since 1997. You obviously now think the complete opposite. Why didn't you say so before the election?

I meant that without tax money these departments would be left neglected. The NHS has made substantial improvements since 1997, however education was more of a mixed picture with schemes like SureStart proving a success but increasing private involvement in the state sector more of a concern.

[thenodrog]

You do realise the vast majority of your tax money DOESN'T go towards benefits?

Define 'tax' please. Then define 'benefits'.

Then again don't bother unless you really want to, this is getting tedious.

[tony gale's mic]

Whichever way you define it, it's true.

Unless you bring the NHS, education etc under the "benefits" umbrella, when it's generally accepted they're not.

[jim mk2]

'Each to his own'!! I bloody well wish it was. I pay private health insurance and I'm paying a kings ransom to get my kids through university. On the flip side I've inherited diddly squat, I've worked all my life since 21, brought up 2 kids in line with my own financial situation at the time so please tell me why tf should I pay for anybody else? Like most people I don't mind stumping up for people in really unfortunate circumstances but to subsidise an increasing sector of parasitical, idle, drug raddled, work shy, 'breeders' who are seriously taking the p1ss out of society does bloody well grieve me.

Taxi-driver politics.

[thenodrog]

Taxi-driver politics.

Whatever it is it's obviously more popular currently than your chosen political brand. Obviously the reason for your bitterness and constant attacks on me is because you backed the wrong horse in a two horse race. Have you ever stopped to think jim that there is quite a strong possibility that you'll never see a Lab government again.

[tony gale's mic]

Whatever it is it's obviously more popular currently than your chosen political brand. Obviously the reason for your bitterness and constant attacks on me is because you backed the wrong horse in a two horse race. Have you ever stopped to think jim that there is quite a strong possibility that you'll never see a Lab government again.

Actually, Labour and the Lib Dems (both nominally at least to the left of the political spectrum, both very much pro-welfare state and public spending) polled far more votes nationally than the parties on the other side of the spectrum. Your "taxi driver politics" as Jim puts it are considerably more right wing than the Tory government we have in now, which doesn't really make them popular at all.

[jim mk2]

Whatever it is it's obviously more popular currently than your chosen political brand. Obviously the reason for your bitterness and constant attacks on me is because you backed the wrong horse in a two horse race. Have you ever stopped to think jim that there is quite a strong possibility that you'll never see a Lab government again.

I am not bitter and I only reply to your constant jibes at me. I concede I am getting on a bit but I am confident there will be another Labour government in my lifetime - at the next general election in fact. The Con - Lib Dems coalition is causing turmoil among the Lib Dem rank and file who are very unhappy with getting into bed with the Tories and could lead to a big split in the party. Their vote at the next election could well collapse. The Tory grassroots are also extremely unhappy with Cameron for conceding the AV referendum to the Lib Dems and will try to break up the coalition as soon as possible. The Tories are also going to take alot of flak for the unnecessary cuts to public services they are planning. Labour meanwhile will be able to regroup under a new leader - hopefully David Miliband - and prepare for a return to power.

[BuckyRover]

"unnecessary cuts"

Brilliant