[Archived] Election

[koi]

Well Tyrone, for a start the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters was a very crude bribe indeed. Labour pledged funding of £7bn in the two months before the election - 77% of which was pledged to projects in Labour marginal seats, something which I think needs an official investigation but that's another matter. Anyway, it's unfortunate for Sheff Forgemasters but this is a profitable company with a turnover of over £100m. There is no doubt that the money needed can be raised privately and I'm sure it will be. I would have no problem with such loans but when so much money has been wasted I'm afraid it's the absolute essentials.

It really worries me that people in this country still cannot see past today and appreciate the trouble we are in and to just say we can spend our way out of it is just crazy.

[roversmum]

Drog does have a point though. Jack Walker was a millionaire but he didn't start off as one as we all know. He created jobs for many people through his enterprises. I would have been quite happy for him to be a member of the Cabinet.

[den]

Well Tyrone, for a start the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters was a very crude bribe indeed. Labour pledged funding of £7bn in the two months before the election - 77% of which was pledged to projects in Labour marginal seats, something which I think needs an official investigation but that's another matter. Anyway, it's unfortunate for Sheff Forgemasters but this is a profitable company with a turnover of over £100m. There is no doubt that the money needed can be raised privately and I'm sure it will be. I would have no problem with such loans but when so much money has been wasted I'm afraid it's the absolute essentials.

You really have no idea what you're talking about Koi.

Firstly, Hallam Sheffield is the constituency of Nick Clegg.

Secondly, Guardian article.

[koi]

You really have no idea what you're talking about Koi.

Firstly, Hallam Sheffield is the constituency of Nick Clegg.

Secondly, Guardian article.

I think you'll find that Sheffield Forgemasters is in Sheffield Central, Paul Blomfield's seat, a Labour MP so clearly you do not know what your talking about. I'm not even going to waste my time reading an article from the Guardian and I don't form my thoughts and opinions from what hacks write in comics. I'd just like to add that Clegg was very critical of this loan BEFORE the election and made it very clear that it was nothing more than political bribery. I also seem to recall that Sheffield Forgemasters had ALREADY SECURED private funding for this investment BEFORE the former government promised the money.

The facts are that 77% of £7bn government funding was awarded to marginal Labour seats in the run-up to the election, that is fact and is not being denied by Labour. To spend that kind of money when the country is in such a mess and in the months prior to the election is just wrong and corrupt.

I don't have a problem with tax money being lent to business, it's something that needs to be done. But to lend so much to one successful company when there are 100'000s out there that would generate more for less is at the moment just not feasible.

[den]

I'm not even going to waste my time reading an article from the Guardian and I don't form my thoughts and opinions from what hacks write in comics. I'd just like to add that Clegg was very critical of this loan BEFORE the election and made it very clear that it was nothing more than political bribery. I also seem to recall that Sheffield Forgemasters had ALREADY SECURED private funding for this investment BEFORE the former government promised the money.

Nick Clegg was totally against any cuts prior to his party jumping into government with little support. Here's another link, that you wont look at, that explains how you are wrong about private investment for the project being easily achieved.

Forgemasters decision is political folly The scrapping of an £80m loan to Sheffield Forgemasters is a short-sighted move by the coalition with far-reaching implications

[koi]

No comment on getting your facts wrong about which constituency Sheffield Forgemasters is in I note, I take you accept I was right and do know what I'm talking about.

Den, I've no doubt your new link is a Guardian opinion and I have no interest in what a Guardian hack has to say. Without reading your article I have no doubt that it fails to mention that half the money for the project has already been raised privately from Westinghouse and Lloyds, I bet it also fails to mention that a further offer of £50m was on the table (and I'll be honest I can't remember who it was from without looking back). So, you'll see as with the vast majority of journalism the writer conveniently leaves out the facts that don't suit the argument. The £80m loan came late in day and the timing - just months before an election, is not merely coincidence. As I keep saying, in principle if the economy was balanced I would whole-heartedly support this but it's not and I can understand the reason why it has been scrapped. I must say that your support for a very profitable company (£13m+ in 2008, £6m+ in 2009) is encouraging indeed, I would have thought that you'd be dead against such a successful company getting tax payers money.

If you care to do some research on what Nick Clegg said about the loan when it was announced you will find that he called it unrealistic at best shameful electioneering at worst. He clearly stated that the load could not be afforded and he was correct. Have a Google Den.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Nick Clegg was totally against any cuts prior to his party jumping into government with little support. Here's another link, that you wont look at, that explains how you are wrong about private investment for the project being easily achieved.

Forgemasters decision is political folly The scrapping of an £80m loan to Sheffield Forgemasters is a short-sighted move by the coalition with far-reaching implications

Every call the Tories made on the economy in the crash turned out to be wrong. Why are we surprised they are getting it all wrong now? People are losing sight of the fact this money was to be a LOAN, paid back with interest. When it comes to industry the Tories haven't got a clue anymore.

Great cartoon in todays paper- Cameron drawn as Churchill with a lap dog ( the latest chief secretary to the treasury whose name I've already forgotten ) and Osborne standing on the edge of The White Cliffs. Cameron is saying " Never in the field of Government Budgets will so few feel the effects of the spending cuts they're going to impose on so many ".

Dead right- We're all in the same boat but only some of us will be rowing !

[koi]

Every call the Tories made on the economy in the crash turned out to be wrong. Why are we surprised they are getting it all wrong now? People are losing sight of the fact this money was to be a LOAN, paid back with interest. When it comes to industry the Tories haven't got a clue anymore.

Great cartoon in todays paper- Cameron drawn as Churchill with a lap dog ( the latest chief secretary to the treasury whose name I've already forgotten ) and Osborne standing on the edge of The White Cliffs. Cameron is saying " Never in the field of Government Budgets will so few feel the effects of the spending cuts they're going to impose on so many ".

Dead right- We're all in the same boat but only some of us will be rowing !

Er, yeah okay Tyrone!

[John]

I think the majority view is that we need to start making cuts now, so how are the Tories wrong? Have you seen the dire state of our finances? We are truly in a mess and simply don't have the money for non-essential projects.

We can keep looking back to their days in Opposition but what matters is what Osborne et al do now - one thing is for sure I doubt they can do much worse considering they won't have to work alongside idiots like Mandelson and Ed Balls. Plus a Prime Minister whose own party have no confidence in.

Of course the debate has started and will continue in relation to how to re-address this (the debt/deficit).

[koi]

I think the majority view is that we need to start making cuts now, so how are the Tories wrong? Have you seen the dire state of our finances? We are truly in a mess and simply don't have the money for non-essential projects.

We can keep looking back to their days in Opposition but what matters is what Osborne et al do now - one thing is for sure I doubt they can do much worse considering they won't have to work alongside idiots like Mandelson and Ed Balls. Plus a Prime Minister whose own party have no confidence in.

Of course the debate has started and will continue in relation to how to re-address this (the debt/deficit).

You're wasting your time talking sense, wasted I'll tell thee....

[tashor]

The retard's flag is deepest red,

It shrouded oft their martyred dead,

And ere our jim grows stiff and cold,

His heart's blood dyes its ev'ry fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

Look 'round, our tyrone loves its blaze,

The sturdy colin chants its praise,

In den's posts its hymns are sung

Thenodrog repels the surging throng.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

He wailed just like an infant might,

When we all knew he was talking shyite;

We witnessed many a deed and vow,

We must not listen to his delusions now.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

We well recall labour's lies of past,

The Tories give us hope at last;

The banner blue, the symbol plain,

Of human right and human gain.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

It suits today the weak and base,

Whose minds are fixed on welfare disgrace

To cringe before the working man's frown,

And haul the rest of the county down.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

With debt uncovered swear we all

To bear it onward till we fall;

Come labour's dark horrendous sin,

This song shall be our parting hymn.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

[adopted scouser]

The retard's flag is deepest red,

It shrouded oft their martyred dead,

And ere our jim grows stiff and cold,

His heart's blood dyes its ev'ry fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

Look 'round, our tyrone loves its blaze,

The sturdy colin chants its praise,

In den's posts its hymns are sung

Thenodrog repels the surging throng.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

He wailed just like an infant might,

When we all knew he was talking shyite;

We witnessed many a deed and vow,

We must not listen to his delusions now.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

We well recall labour's lies of past,

The Tories give us hope at last;

The banner blue, the symbol plain,

Of human right and human gain.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

It suits today the weak and base,

Whose minds are fixed on welfare disgrace

To cringe before the working man's frown,

And haul the rest of the county down.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

With debt uncovered swear we all

To bear it onward till we fall;

Come labour's dark horrendous sin,

This song shall be our parting hymn.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

Epic Tash, Epic.

[den]

Den, I've no doubt your new link is a Guardian opinion and I have no interest in what a Guardian hack has to say. Without reading your article I have no doubt that it fails to mention that half the money for the project has already been raised privately from Westinghouse and Lloyds, I bet it also fails to mention that a further offer of £50m was on the table (and I'll be honest I can't remember who it was from without looking back). So, you'll see as with the vast majority of journalism the writer conveniently leaves out the facts that don't suit the argument. The £80m loan came late in day and the timing - just months before an election, is not merely coincidence. As I keep saying, in principle if the economy was balanced I would whole-heartedly support this but it's not and I can understand the reason why it has been scrapped. I must say that your support for a very profitable company (£13m+ in 2008, £6m+ in 2009) is encouraging indeed, I would have thought that you'd be dead against such a successful company getting tax payers money.

If you care to do some research on what Nick Clegg said about the loan when it was announced you will find that he called it unrealistic at best shameful electioneering at worst. He clearly stated that the load could not be afforded and he was correct. Have a Google Den.

why? What a strange thing to say, seeing that this is a loan, that is good for the company, good for the government because they actually lend the cash at 3.5% interest and good for jobs.

There's no point in debating any more TBH Koi. You wont read any links provided - yet go on to criticise the article. You fob off detailed posts with nothing more than "You don't half talk some crap". You continue to say the loan was a bribe without any real evidence to back that up - while there is a valid argument why that company should have been supported.

The only reason why I commented in the first place was because of the way you see all things Tory as good, while everything not Tory is bad.*

Time to move on

*Edit, pretty much on Tash's level of debating.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The retard's flag is deepest red,

It shrouded oft their martyred dead,

And ere our jim grows stiff and cold,

His heart's blood dyes its ev'ry fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

Look 'round, our tyrone loves its blaze,

The sturdy colin chants its praise,

In den's posts its hymns are sung

Thenodrog repels the surging throng.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

He wailed just like an infant might,

When we all knew he was talking shyite;

We witnessed many a deed and vow,

We must not listen to his delusions now.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

We well recall labour's lies of past,

The Tories give us hope at last;

The banner blue, the symbol plain,

Of human right and human gain.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

It suits today the weak and base,

Whose minds are fixed on welfare disgrace

To cringe before the working man's frown,

And haul the rest of the county down.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade he'll live and die,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

With debt uncovered swear we all

To bear it onward till we fall;

Come labour's dark horrendous sin,

This song shall be our parting hymn.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.

Within its shade we'll puke and cry,

Though some here flinch and others sneer,

Jim'll keep the red flag flying here.

Wow, I bet Carol Ann Duffy won't sleep tonight.

[koi]

don't worry Den I'll put your toys back in your pram!

By the way, where did you get the rate of 3.5% from? I looked through government papers the other day when looking into the details of this loan and I could find no mention of the final figures. In fact, the details in general were very sketchy.

[den]

don't worry Den I'll put your toys back in your pram!

By the way, where did you get the rate of 3.5% from? I looked through government papers the other day when looking into the details of this loan and I could find no mention of the final figures. In fact, the details in general were very sketchy.

It was quoted by plenty of politicians on TV over the weekend. Also, a quote from David Milliband here.

Other articles via google, but if you wont read them, then Houston we have a problem.

[colin]

Thenodrog,

Thanks for the reply to points that I didn't make.

Maybe you were a little over-excited at the time.

[Grabbi Graeme]

On the subject of the emergency budget, well VAT to increase to 20% from 4th January, fuel, tobacco and alcohol have been left alone which is a bit of surprise as I thought they would of been hardest hit, also the duty on landline phones that was proposed by Labour has been scrapped.

Personal income tax allowance up by £1000 from April

Child benefit frozen for 3 years

[jim mk2]

fuel, tobacco and alcohol have been left alone which is a bit of surprise

Not a surprise at all as the oil, tobacco and and brewing industry are all big donors to the Tory party. The Tories looking after their friends as usual after the election bribes. The Budget was as expected, public sector workers being punished with wage freezes for the excesses of the vultures in the private sector in general and the banking industry in particular. VAT increase will hit those who can afford it least while the mooted income tax and capital tax increases were watered down after presure from Tory right wingers leaving the poor to pick up the bill once again. Osborne living up to the reputation of his party as a nasty bunch of B'stards (thank you Rick Mayall).

[BuckyRover]

I think it's because alcohol and cigs have already gone up recently.

Either that or they didn't want to screw the traditional Labour vote twice over, benefits reduced and fags increased, they wouldn't be able to cope.

Private sector vultures? I think most people in the private sector have been subject to wage freezes for the last two years. The public sector are just catching up that is all.

[koi]

It was quoted by plenty of politicians on TV over the weekend. Also, a quote from David Milliband here.

Other articles via google, but if you wont read them, then Houston we have a problem.

Den, I did Goole at length and I could only find the Marxist brother comment you posted. I looked through any released parliamentary papers and at no point does it mention the terms of the loan. It's interesting that Marx has mentioned the interest rate because as I understand it any such loan has to be agreed by the EU and the details of the loan would not have been finalised until thoroughly investigated by the EU.

On the subject, I believe that Sheffield Forgemasters has moved forward with this project.

[thenodrog]

I think it's because alcohol and cigs have already gone up recently.

Either that or they didn't want to screw the traditional Labour vote twice over, benefits reduced and fags increased, they wouldn't be able to cope.

Don't they all smoke roll ups made from packets of imported duty free Samson? Tax Rizla's to high heaven I say.

[Majiball]

Don't they all smoke roll ups made from packets of imported duty free Samson? Tax Rizla's to high heaven I say.

10 for a pound, down ST George's.

[berkshireblue]

Not a surprise at all as the oil, tobacco and and brewing industry are all big donors to the Tory party. The Tories looking after their friends as usual after the election bribes. The Budget was as expected, public sector workers being punished with wage freezes for the excesses of the vultures in the private sector in general and the banking industry in particular. VAT increase will hit those who can afford it least while the mooted income tax and capital tax increases were watered down after presure from Tory right wingers leaving the poor to pick up the bill once again. Osborne living up to the reputation of his party as a nasty bunch of B'stards (thank you Rick Mayall).

Been away from this thread for a few weeks and nice to see Jim still spouting b&&ll**s!

With the mess left to deal with by Jim's comrades looked a sensible budget, all income & political biases take equal pain

The public sector will be harder hit purely and simply because its fatter & full of jobs worths and red tape....Front line will be defended but I am sure red spin wont admitt to this

Challenge still stands Jim, we could find 20 billion savings on the back of a fag packet!

[tashor]

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL ...............

Jaw dropped when I watched my pre bedtime thursday night cosy sofa chat program