[Archived] Election

[thenodrog]

Neither did the Tories. Both parties were pressed constantly by the media on the details of their proposed cuts before the election but both refused to elaborate. Labour said their plan would halve the deficit in 4 years but the Tories did not even go that far - and little wonder. If the public had known that the Tories were secretly planning to slash public spending and create unemployment there is no doubt that the outcome of the election would have been very different. It is clear now that the Tories have been planning for years their ideological experiment to reduce the size of the state.

I also read today that the "tax gap" - the difference between the amount of tax that is due and the amount that is actually paid - grew in the past year from £38bn to £42bn but as part of its process of reducing the size of Whitehall the government is proposing to cut the number of tax inspectors ! The stupidity and short-sightedness of the Tories defies belief but twas ever thus.

I've finally sussed you out! Like everybody else I thought you were just a half senile embittered old goat who is regretting at length taking a succession of wrong career turnings throughout your life. How wrong could I be? It's obvious now that you are simply a double agent working for the Conservative Party!! It all adds up!

So sorry to have blown your cover and all that Jimbo.

[jim mk2]

I've finally sussed you out! Like everybody else I thought you were just a half senile embittered old goat who is regretting at length taking a succession of wrong career turnings throughout your life. How wrong could I be? It's obvious now that you are simply a double agent working for the Conservative Party!! It all adds up!

So sorry to have blown your cover and all that Jimbo.

Nonsensical.

[koi]

Neither did the Tories. Both parties were pressed constantly by the media on the details of their proposed cuts before the election but both refused to elaborate. Labour said their plan would halve the deficit in 4 years but the Tories did not even go that far - and little wonder. If the public had known that the Tories were secretly planning to slash public spending and create unemployment there is no doubt that the outcome of the election would have been very different. It is clear now that the Tories have been planning for years their ideological experiment to reduce the size of the state.

I also read today that the "tax gap" - the difference between the amount of tax that is due and the amount that is actually paid - grew in the past year from £38bn to £42bn but as part of its process of reducing the size of Whitehall the government is proposing to cut the number of tax inspectors ! The stupidity and short-sightedness of the Tories defies belief but twas ever thus.

Don't disagree but the government has the figures and the last government failed to publish those figures. A government should be able to outline their strategy, Labour have never done this, saying they have a plan but never telling us is not very bright. The fact is they don't know hoe it could be achieved.

Interesting you mention the tax gap, who let that get out of such control I wonder?

To be honest, it's all conjecture which ever way you look at it so I'll just get on with it.

[thenodrog]

Nonsensical.

Ooops! Sorry... I forgot. You don't do humour do you?

[jim mk2]

Interesting you mention the tax gap, who let that get out of such control I wonder?

From what I read the tax gap fell from 2004 and 2008 but spiralled in the recession as businesses (the famed private sector that has got this country in a mess) fell behind with their vat payments. 14 per cent of the overall gap was owing to unpaid corporation tax as firms deliberately evaded payment. Unions said the tax gap will increase as staff numbers at customs and revenue keep dropping which reinforces the point that it is illogical and counterproductive to reduce staff in a govt. department that if it were allowed to function properly would do more to help cut the deficit than a risky and unnecessary programme of public sector spending cuts.

[koi]

From what I read the tax gap fell from 2004 and 2008 but spiralled in the recession as businesses (the famed private sector that has got this country in a mess) fell behind with their vat payments. 14 per cent of the overall gap was owing to unpaid corporation tax as firms deliberately evaded payment. Unions said the tax gap will increase as staff numbers at customs and revenue keep dropping which reinforces the point that it is illogical and counterproductive to reduce staff in a govt. department that if it were allowed to function properly would do more to help cut the deficit than a risky and unnecessary programme of public sector spending cuts.

Without the famed private sector we wouldn't have an economy. If you had said financial sector then I would agree. I disagree with what the Unions are saying (no surprise). I can say as a business owner that the collection of tax (VAT, PAYE, CIS etc) has been extremely lapse, the staff poor and the methods of auditing ancient. However, the new computerised system (ChRIS etc) is extremely efficient and will have a massive impact on tax collection.

[dave birch]

Could someone explain what a recession is?

Many thanks.

[den]

Could someone explain what a recession is?

Many thanks.

It's the bit between the window and the chimley stack.

[modes98]

Could someone explain what a recession is?

You'll be asking what a double dip recession is soon.

[jim mk2]

A recessions is defined as when the economy contracts for two quarters in succession. The Tories are specialists in recessions, having engineered numerous booms and busts in the 1980s and 1990s and are at present in the process of steering the economy into another recession. Recessions make the Tories happy, because it means they can make the poor and weak (Labour voters) suffer. And they couldn't give a damn.

[thenodrog]

...... The greed and incompetance of the private sector has already caused enough damage to the economy over the past 3 years with the worst recession since the 1930s,

A recessions is defined as when the economy contracts for two quarters in succession. The Tories are specialists in recessions, having engineered numerous booms and busts in the 1980s and 1990s and are at present in the process of steering the economy into another recession. Recessions make the Tories happy, because it means they can make the poor and weak (Labour voters) suffer. And they couldn't give a damn.

Odd then that according to you the worst and deepest recession since the 1930's happened more than a decade after New Labour came into office.

Talk about re-writing history. The Conservative party presided over just two of this little lot with the two deepest (the current one and the Great depression of the 30's) typically occurred on Labour's watch.

btw Hardly a great advert for the Labour party as manufacturing is cited as the the greatest loser with the current one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_Kingdom

Do you ever think before you post or are you simply working on the theory that if you repeat something often enough some people will start to believe you?

[tashor]

Recessions make the Tories happy, because it means they can make the poor and weak (Labour voters) suffer. And they couldn't give a damn.

Doris has it spot on...........

'S why I vote Tory

[jim mk2]

Odd then that according to you the worst and deepest recession since the 1930's happened more than a decade after New Labour came into office.

Your schoolboy bilge is easily ignored but it is necessary to nail this particular lie.

The recession from which the British economy emerged last year under Labour had its origins in the collapse of the US subprime market leading to the collapse of leading western financial institutions and the consequent worldwide recession - absolutely nothing to with Labour.

The high spending which only took place in the last months of the Labour government was an essential tool – recommended by business leaders and the Bank of England – to avert the collapse of the banks and national catastrophe: exactly the the same policy that was being pursued from the White House to the Bundestag.

It should be remembered that without Gordon Brown's rescue package the west would have lost all paper money within 48 hours of the fall of Lehman Brothers. In October 2008 Britain was within hours of major clearing banks going bust. If it wasn't for the Labour government the ConDem coalition wouldn't have had an economy to inherit. The deficit did its job and stopped the recession having such a great human impact as did the Tory recessions of the 1980s and 1990s.

Moving on, a major fissure is emerging in the coalition over the immigrant cap with the CBI backing the Lib Dems' Vince Cable's argument that the cap is damaging British industry and Cameron of course rejecting it. Cable gave an example at the Lib Dems conference today of one company that needed 500 specialist engineers from outside the EU but was given a quota of four and an entrepreneur who ditched plans to open a factory and create 400 jobs in the north after failing to secure visas for key staff. Another example of Tory dogma and intransigence damaging this country.

[thenodrog]

The recession from which the British economy emerged last year under Labour had its origins in the collapse of the US subprime market leading to the collapse of leading western financial institutions and the consequent worldwide recession - absolutely nothing to with Labour.[/size]

You're worse than Pontious Pilate for washing your hands of unpleasant facts.

After 11 years of Labour in charge it certainly can't have have had anything to do with the other parties. Try to pass the buck all you want but to quote President Truman 'the buck stops here'. In this case 'here' was No 10 when Tony Blair (and his Chancellor Brown) had had their feet under the table and in majority government for over a decade.

What happens in the future no one knows but the past is cast in tablets of stone no matter how you want to twist the facts.

[jim mk2]

It's hard trying to get through to a bonehead with the intellect of a 5-year-old but I'll try again.

First, the deficit is the result of the biggest financial crisis in our lifetimes. The Tories can argue about the level of public spending when the crisis hit, but it is the crisis that caused the deficit. The reduction in tax receipts and the use of fiscal stimulus caused a necessary hole in public finances. The only other options were to cut public spending in a recession and not to introduce a stimulus when it was most needed. Both would have led to a deeper recession, more unemployment, fewer tax receipts and an even bigger deficit.

The economic statistics for Labour's last period in office prove that they made the right choices and that Britain was reaping the benefits. The economy grew by 1.1% in the second quarter, double expectations. Unemployment has dropped again to about 2.4m, far below the 3m under the Tories in the early 1990s.

The Labour government intervention did save the world, as Gordon Brown said, and the economy that the Con-Dem government inherited was not in a mess, because Labour stopped it becoming a mess. The bank bail-outs, the stimulus and an active industrial policy have worked. All this is irrefutable.

Understand ?

[BuckyRover]

Light touch regulation?

Total public debt of £1 trillion. Encouraging household debt (circa. £1 trillion). High deficit before the financial crisis.

Then when booted out of office; "it wasn't me!"

[Wiggy]

After watching the five candidates for the Labour party leadership on Question Time it's difficult to see how they can be elected again. The public aren't stupid, this lot sound like they are still running for the Student Union, they are so niave. The best of the bad bunch and the one most able to connect with ordinary voters is Andy Burnham. According to polls of the Labour Party he has no chance of being elected.

Gordon Brown has left the public finances in a catastrophic state. When he became chancellor we were spending 40% of our income on government, when he left as PM it was 52% ( with PFI and public pension liabilities off the balance sheet.)

The British public will not forgive Labour so easily.

[thenodrog]

....The Tories are specialists in recessions, having engineered numerous booms and busts in the 1980s and 1990s and are at present in the process of steering the economy into another recession. Recessions make the Tories happy, because it means they can make the poor and weak (Labour voters) suffer. And they couldn't give a damn.

First, the deficit is the result of the biggest financial crisis in our lifetimes.

Why are you making a d1ck of yourself by attempting to lay blame on a party that has been out of office for over a decade? Especially as I said earlier when History tells us that the deepest and most damaging recessions / depressions occurred under Labour governments?

The Labour government intervention did save the world, as Gordon Brown said, and the economy that the Con-Dem government inherited was not in a mess, because Labour stopped it becoming a mess. The bank bail-outs, the stimulus and an active industrial policy have worked. All this is irrefutable.

Irrefutable? Rubbish! Compare the strong and vibrant econonomy inherited by New Lab in '97 to the one they left in May which currently resembles a dead man walking.

btw here's a link that might be enough to see you shuffle off your mortal coil. Enjoy.

http://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/centres/tax/Documents/press_releases/Spending%20Cuts.pdf

[jim mk2]

Why are you making a d1ck of yourself by attempting to lay blame on a party that has been out of office for over a decade? Especially as I said earlier when History tells us that the deepest and most damaging recessions / depressions occurred under Labour governments?

Irrefutable? Rubbish! Compare the strong and vibrant econonomy inherited by New Lab in '97 to the one they left in May which currently resembles a dead man walking.

btw here's a link that might be enough to see you shuffle off your mortal coil. Enjoy.

http://www.sbs.ox.ac...ding%20Cuts.pdf

I have argued all those points already and shown why you are incorrect so there is no point in repeating myself again and again.

Some people's skulls are so thick nothing will penetrate.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I have argued all those points already and shown why you are incorrect so there is no point in repeating myself again and again.

Some people's skulls are so thick nothing will penetrate.

Jim as an aside: what exactly would the Labour party have to do for you to admit they made a mistake. Drop nuke on Ireland, Burn left handed people at the stake, sacrifice babies on live TV?

[Bazzanotsogreat]

How's everyone coping with the national debt? OK I hope. It's detrimented my life so badly I'm suicidal.

Silly comment. I know plenty of people who have been badly effected directly by the national debt, my uncle’s business has folded due to a lack of affordable credit, I have a friend who has just lost his job as an exporter- the we have the millions who will loose their jobs in the public- myself being one of them.

[jim mk2]

Jim as an aside: what exactly would the Labour party have to do for you to admit they made a mistake. Drop nuke on Ireland, Burn left handed people at the stake, sacrifice babies on live TV?

They made mistakes like all governments do: failing to reverse the Tory privatisation of the railways when they came to power was a big mistake and not spending enough on improving public services, particularly infrastructure, was another. It is clear with hindsight that the financial services industry needed tighter regulation and the housing boom damaged the economy (yet again) and needs reform to make houses less attractive as "investments" - but that is a nettle that any govt refuses to grasp.

[thenodrog]

They made mistakes like all governments do: failing to reverse the Tory privatisation of the railways when they came to power was a big mistake and not spending enough on improving public services, particularly infrastructure, was another. It is clear with hindsight that the financial services industry needed tighter regulation and the housing boom damaged the economy (yet again) and needs reform to make houses less attractive as "investments" - but that is a nettle that any govt refuses to grasp.

Who on earth is allowed hindsight these days? Certainly not political parties (or football managers) thats for sure.

btw I'm closing in on your poodle.

[BuckyRover]

Is the national debt directly correlated to a recession?

I just want to know why the other people with the pitch forks are so bothered about something that probably doesn't affect them.

It does affect us The proportion of my tax paid in servicing interest payments is increasing, meaning the amount spent on services is decreasing.

This proportion is increasing day by day. As I said previously we are already spending more on interest than on education or defence.

That is not a state of affairs to be happy about.

[Steve Moss]

Is the national debt directly correlated to a recession?

I just want to know why the other people with the pitch forks are so bothered about something that probably doesn't affect them.

1. Government dent generates an annual interst bill which needs to be paid, in lieu of building roads and schools.

2. Government debt either crowds out private borrowing (which means reduced private sector spending = fewer jobs = fewer taxes long term = greater future debt as more are on benefits with a smaller budget to pay for them) or, worse, results in inflation.

3. Government debt needs to be REPAID someday, if not now, then within the next decade or three, which means we are effectively stealing from our children and grandchildren so that some can enjoy the benefits of debt today.

Those are 3 off the cuff reasons why government debt gets the pitchfork crowd in an uproar. Namely because they can see past their nose and Western governments are leading us off the edge of a cliff.