[Archived] Election

[Guest bluerovers]

LOL, a jim mk2-esque type person on 5Live saying there should no cuts at all just got a healthy dose of reality. She claimed that no cuts should be made in the civil service (where she works, surprise surprise) as "we need to create wealth". She was quickly corrected that the civil service don't create wealth, the private sector do.

Oh and I'm a civil servant too by the way.

[koi]

LOL, a jim mk2-esque type person on 5Live saying there should no cuts at all just got a healthy dose of reality. She claimed that no cuts should be made in the civil service (where she works, surprise surprise) as "we need to create wealth". She was quickly corrected that the civil service don't create wealth, the private sector do.

Oh and I'm a civil servant too by the way.

I've just listened to that, I thought I would be listening to a sensible discussion about the Lib Dems, instead we got an audience of union activists collectively grinding their axe. Thought the Lib Dems panel members did okay given the out and out union hostility.

[rebelmswar]

I have never understood how creating jobs that will be paid by the government actually helps the economy. If the government creates jobs and pays for them themselves that equals less money in even if you would tax said jobs 50%

Bring back wearing furs and bartering shells I say.

[rebelmswar]

A question for philipl, I think. I'm not a money expert but here's one probable explanation...

Wage money is always recycled back into the economy. The wage is taxed and returned to the government. When the remaining money is spent on petrol, food, or anything, it's taxed again and back in government hands. You could argue that the government recoups around 30-40% of the wage paid out and the remainder is floating around in the economy - waiting to be spent (and taxed) again.

I see that, but that is like you giving me your whole salary and then I give you back half of it, and then I expect you to pay for all of the things in your house and your health-care, whilst letting me use them for free.

It doesn't make sense and never will.

[rebelmswar]

You've got me with that last bit because that doesn't make sense. We get "free" healthcare (by way of tax money).

What I'm saying is that their wages - in fact all our wages - are plunged into the economy somehow. Which is why it's good. Because it passes hands and people continue fueling the economic cycle.

I'm not sure how many jobs have been cut in the public sector but, say that it's 10%... then that's a big hole in the economic cycle and jobs are lost.

My beef isn't directly with the economic effects of killing jobs. It's leaving people hanging out to dry that bothers me, especially given that it's the government that is directly causing it and most of the electorate not really giving a hoot and saying "tough tittie".

That's exactly my point.

The civil servant is paid by taxes, which are then taxed and go back into the government coffers, which are then spent on things that the civil servant gets - and his/her own salary.

Therefore the money paid to the civil servant is a loss in tax terms, which makes inflating the government a very poor way for garnishing taxes.

[rebelmswar]

Anyway, where's Jim and theno? It's been well over 24 hours now and this thread is drying up.

Insert a surreptitious racist remark or something hating on either party, both of them will be here like a shark with chum.

[Guest bluerovers]

What I'm saying is that their wages - in fact all our wages - are plunged into the economy somehow. Which is why it's good. Because it passes hands and people continue fueling the economic cycle.

Not true, people go on holiday abroad for a start where they put money into other people's economies. Then companies like Tesco divert a lot of their cash out of the UK to support their global ambitions.

By no means does all the money that is spent in this country stay in this country.

[thenodrog]

I have never understood how creating jobs that will be paid by the government actually helps the economy. If the government creates jobs and pays for them themselves that equals less money in even if you would tax said jobs 50%

Hey thats good lateral thinking and a damned good option to keep the wolves from the door of so many households by allowing public sector workers time and space to find more financially rewarding positions in the private sector whilst not placing the ball and chain of excessive tax burden on the private sector, thereby making them more competetive in the market place. Basically a reversal of the Private sector continually subsidising the Public sector!

The simplest solutions are frequently the best solutions.

Reb for PM!

[thenodrog]

A question for philipl, I think. I'm not a money expert but here's one probable explanation...

Wage money is always recycled back into the economy. The wage is taxed and returned to the government. When the remaining money is spent on petrol, food, or anything, it's taxed again and back in government hands. You could argue that the government recoups around 30-40% of the wage paid out and the remainder is floating around in the economy - waiting to be spent (and taxed) again.

Indeed. There is a tax burden on virtually everything we buy. It's a massive accumulator.

[thenodrog]

Not true, people go on holiday abroad for a start where they put money into other people's economies. Then companies like Tesco divert a lot of their cash out of the UK to support their global ambitions.

By no means does all the money that is spent in this country stay in this country.

Might be wrong but I'd imagine that most civil servants retire much earlier than their counterparts in the private sector. Many of them will have spent their index linked pensions on apartments etc in the sun when the £ was strong too.

[JAL]

Indeed. There is a tax burden on virtually everything we buy. It's a massive accumulator.

But the HMRC must be one of the most inefficient public service in this country, costing the country billions in lost wealth.

Only in the Times this week HMRC said that a 'staggering' £42billion in tax was not collected in the year to April 2009, up from £38billion the previous year.

Independent experts say that the Uk's tax gap is much bigger, at about £100 billion. VAT was the biggest area of avoidance and evasion. The article went on to say that the revenue has pledged to cut the gap by £4billion next year, but admitted that it would be 'at a stretch'.WTF!

No wonder we are fcUKayed. Any money lost abroad should be traced and brought back to this country no matter what nationality first and foremost.

[rebelmswar]

Hey thats good lateral thinking and a damned good option to keep the wolves from the door of so many households by allowing public sector workers time and space to find more financially rewarding positions in the private sector whilst not placing the ball and chain of excessive tax burden on the private sector, thereby making them more competetive in the market place. Basically a reversal of the Private sector continually subsidising the Public sector!

I have always thought that service means service and not privilege. It seems the inverse is true when it comes to government jobs etc. There is no proper fix though until government bloats to such a size that it is unsustainable and then perhaps the banks will have to bail them out.

[thenodrog]

No wonder we are fcUKayed. Any money lost abroad should be traced and brought back to this country no matter what nationality first and foremost.

Western Union?

[jim mk2]

Only in the Times this week HMRC said that a 'staggering' £42billion in tax was not collected in the year to April 2009, up from £38billion the previous year.

Independent experts say that the Uk's tax gap is much bigger, at about £100 billion. VAT was the biggest area of avoidance and evasion. .

I highlighted this story earlier in the thread. It does not make sense to cut back on tax collectors and inspectors (as this government is doing) who pay for their salaries many times over in the money they save the country. Labour recognised the growing tax avoidance problem (principally by the thieves in the private sector) and increased HMC numbers but of course Osborne by throwing the baby out with the bathwater is about to slash and burn great swathes of the public sector. Presumably the public school oik is happy for the private sector robbers to carry on avoiding paying tax in which case this country really will be back in the 1980s when Thatcher's spivs and crooks set the country on the road to ruin from which it only recovered under Labour.

[thenodrog]

I highlighted this story earlier in the thread. It does not make sense to cut back on tax collectors and inspectors (as this government is doing)

Alternatively there is a counter argument that never mind cut backs the bloody lot of em should be sacked outright for such in competence. 42 billion equates to approx £2000 for every working person in the country! Thats not careless it's criminal! The gross mismanagement that you are somehow conniving to associate with the present government happened exclusively on New Labours watch! And worse still through a period when your idol the unelected, unelectable and unwanted PM's previous role was the Chancellor of the Exchequer!

I'm all for hiring out the work on results based contracts to regional companies from the private sector. I can virtually guarantee less people would be employed and there would not be a shortfall of 42 billion pounds.

How can I say this? Simple if there was such incompetence lots of people would be sacked.

Next.

I highlighted this story earlier in the thread. It does not make sense to cut back on tax collectors and inspectors (as this government is doing) who pay for their salaries many times over in the money they save the country. Labour created and then recognised the growing tax avoidance problem (principally by the thieves in the private sector) and increased HMC numbers......

Corrected for you in the name of accuracy.

[jim mk2]

I'm all for hiring out the work on results based contracts to charlatans from the private sector. I can virtually guarantee less people would be employed

Corrected for you in the name of accuracy. The second sentence is accurate.

Next.

Fun isn't it ?

Moving on, the Lib Dems conference in Liverpool ended with grassroots members in disbelief and anger after listening to Nick Clegg give a dismal and nauseating closing speech that could have been written by Central Office. It is apparent that the coalition deputy PM, who was expected to restrain the Tories' desire to slash and burn public services, is just a mouthpiece of Cameron and his right-wing cohorts, a multi-millionaire ex-public school boy who says it is "fair" that he and Cameron can moralise public sector workers about the deficit when the crisis was created by their chums in the City. Clegg and Cable may be enjoying their brief moment in the sun but ultimately they and their party will pay a terrible price for selling out their ordinary supporters.

[thenodrog]

Corrected for you in the name of accuracy. The second sentence is accurate.

Next.

Fun isn't it ?

.....a multi-millionaire ex-public school boy who says it is "fair" that he and Cameron can moralise public sector workers about the deficit when the crisis was created by their chums in the City.

Chums in the city or equally recently defeated opponents from across the Commons. The buck always stops at No 10 remember.

[jim mk2]

Chums in the city or equally recently defeated opponents from across the Commons. The buck always stops at No 10 remember.

Yup, the weather was poor in August so the government must be to blame for that too.

Cliches 10 Original Thought 0

And please stop stalking me. I would call the police but the local station has been shut owing to public spedning cuts.

[colin]

Might be wrong but I'd imagine that most civil servants retire much earlier than their counterparts in the private sector. Many of them will have spent their index linked pensions on apartments etc in the sun when the £ was strong too.

You are wrong, as you suggested you might be. Please stop throwing your dick around making outrageous assumptions that you have no way of proving.

You can "imagine" all you like and rabbit on about "apartments etc in the sun" but it doesn't make it true does it?

I can "imagine" that you took Anne Widdecome on a seven-hour, sexual eye-opening adventure for the both of you last night. I can imagine that you f*****d each other senseless.

I can imagine that neither you nor Anne used protection.

Easy.

[rebelmswar]

You are wrong, as you suggested you might be. Please stop throwing your dick around making outrageous assumptions that you have no way of proving.

You can "imagine" all you like and rabbit on about "apartments etc in the sun" but it doesn't make it true does it?

I can "imagine" that you took Anne Widdecome on a seven-hour, sexual eye-opening adventure for the both of you last night. I can imagine that you f*****d each other senseless.

I can imagine that neither you nor Anne used protection.

Easy.

Dear God.

Want to remove my eyes with spoons after reading that tirade.

[roversmum]

I think you meant 'some' civil servants, Theno.

I got a letter from the Inland Revenue about six months ago, telling me I had underpaid tax and wanting to relieve me of most of my civil service/state pension to recover what I 'owed'.

I pointed out to them that I did not receive sufficient pension even combined to pay tax and if they had bothered to check properly they would have found that out.

I wish I did get a decent pension, it might make up a bit for all those years I have been a Carer receiving no remuneration at all.

[thenodrog]

I think you meant 'some' civil servants, Theno.

Indeed.

[rebelmswar]

I was self-employed for over a year back in 2004. I received a letter three years ago saying I had underpaid £128 tax. I paid it. Two months later I got a cheque from them through the post for £128.

Big Government at its finest.

They probably hoped that the interest they received on that amount would cover the wages and cost that the demand for the money warranted.

Plus doing this is keeping someone in a job.

[koi]

You are wrong, as you suggested you might be. Please stop throwing your dick around making outrageous assumptions that you have no way of proving.

You can "imagine" all you like and rabbit on about "apartments etc in the sun" but it doesn't make it true does it?

I can "imagine" that you took Anne Widdecome on a seven-hour, sexual eye-opening adventure for the both of you last night. I can imagine that you f*****d each other senseless.

I can imagine that neither you nor Anne used protection.

Easy.

Oh christ on a bike that's horrible.

Time to shut this thread I think coz that's turned my stomach.

[Guest bluerovers]

I was self-employed for over a year back in 2004. I received a letter three years ago saying I had underpaid £128 tax. I paid it. Two months later I got a cheque from them through the post for £128.

If you're that willing to just hand over money you owe me £128 too.