[Archived] Election

[Sandiway Blue]

The difficulty is that Ed's policies doesn’t represent the views of the majority of Britain. His return to true Labour principles; is wholly outdated- who are they going to appeal to? miners? Steelworkers? The manufacturing sector? Unfortunately Ed you are 25 years to late

Most of the working classes; either think they are middle-class or aspire to get there. Imposing increased taxes on the middle-classes will ultimately hurt Labour

Unless you are called John (sorry Lord!) Prescott in which case you just cut out the middle class and go straight to the top table!

[AndyNeil]

I'm not really a labour man myself but I do feel that the labour party have missed a trick giving Red Ed 'the gig' ... I'm sure Dave and Nick will be raising a glass this weekend. He will have his work cut out to win the next election if he is going to stay true to his values.

[broadsword]

I DON'T give to ANY charity!

That's sad, and I don't really understand the thinking. Is there a problem with giving to charity?

If it wasn't for charities they'd be a massive void where at the moment there are people to turn to for help. No ChildLine for children who are being abused, no RSPCA looking out for abused animals, there wouldn't be as many hospices for people with terminal illnesses, research into various cancers and various other nasty afflictions wouldn't be as great, no Help for Heroes for our troops putting their life at risk. No Oxfam, no Christian Aid, no Medecins sans frontiers, world poverty and famine is bad enough as it is, imagine is organisations like that didn't exist. No Shelter to help people get off the streets. I could go on forever.

We're incredibly lucky to live in Western Europe. Compared to the Third World, we have outstanding healthcare, access to incredibly good nutrition. And a lot of us have a nice disposable income. If everyone did their little bit, a lot of problems would be alleviated to a great extent, and that little bit wouldn't be much at all.

I've already raised money for the Alzheimer's Society, soon I will be running 6 miles through mood for teh Prostate Cancer Charity and next year I will be doing an event for teh NSPCC. I suppose I could just not bother at all, say " (Please don't use that word again) it" and just go down the pub and spend every last penny on me. But i'm happy to make a sacrifice for the good of others not as fortunate as me, because I want to give something back. Churchill said: "We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give." and I think he was right in what he was saying.

I can't understand why someone would think it shameful to give to charity, and it makes me angry. You don't have to give to every charity going, and they're not going to steal all your hard-earned cash. It's your money of course, but I think it's mean-spirited to not give any money to charity at all.

[tashor]

Chorley library is a tremendous resource, for one thing providing computers for people to access the internet, presumably these are people who cannot afford the luxury of a machine at home.

I totally agree with you here Paul...........

Our family visits every two or three weeks to borrow books, CDs, DVDs, even games for a fraction of their true value.

I thought you had a well paid job? Please tell me why I should pay for you to borrow books, CDs, DVDs and even games? Are you going to send me a cheque to help subsidize my 15 year old's porn collection????????????

[Paul]

I thought you had a well paid job? Please tell me why I should pay for you to borrow books, CDs, DVDs and even games? Are you going to send me a cheque to help subsidize my 15 year old's porn collection????????????

Yes I have a reasonably paid job, I'm fortunate. Public Libraries are funded from central government via the Revenue Support Grant which in turn, I presume, is funded by the taxes we both pay. On that basis we both pay, proportionately according to income, towards the funding of our local library. The extent to which we chose to use it is a matter of choice.

Extending your argument our family rarely use the local sports centre so should I ask you to swap a cheque to compensate for this? Or perhaps view it as payment in kind for the porn collection? We all pay taxes, in various forms, for local services and can only pick and chose the ones we benefit from.

[Guest bluerovers]

Yes I have a reasonably paid job, I'm fortunate. Public Libraries are funded from central government via the Revenue Support Grant which in turn, I presume, is funded by the taxes we both pay. On that basis we both pay, proportionately according to income, towards the funding of our local library. The extent to which we chose to use it is a matter of choice.

Extending your argument our family rarely use the local sports centre so should I ask you to swap a cheque to compensate for this? Or perhaps view it as payment in kind for the porn collection? We all pay taxes, in various forms, for local services and can only pick and chose the ones we benefit from.

You've missed his point...

You originally said (in effect) that libraries were there to help out the poorer member of society (Internet, cheap CD rentals etc) but then the example you gave was you and your family (who you've now admitted aren't poor).

I think that was what he was getting at. The point about libraries being useful for poor people is a good one, but libraries exitsting so a fairly well off family can get CDs and DVDs cheaper than they could at Blockbuster is not a good reason for them existing (which was essentuially your original argument).

[Yorick]

Maybe my point was lost. When I said do we need libraries maybe I should have queried whether they are cost effective now that so much library work is available over the internet. The public spend is only so big nowadays and we are told it must be reduced. It is inevitable that whatever is for the chop will upset somebody but at what point does common sense prevail over sentimentality?

What if I said close libraries and use the money saved to end the post code lottery for cancer treatment? Would that put a sharper point on the matter?

[Guest bluerovers]

I reckon you could close (and sell off) all the "local" libraries but the each town/city's main Library should stay. Then run a mobile library service for all those old people who can't get to it. With book sbeing so cheap nowadays on the likes Amazon I would also guess a big culture change has happened to a lot of middle-class people where now they will just buy it from the web for a £5 delivered rather than spend the same-ish to go to the library and borrow it.

There are internet cafe's for poor people who can't afford a PC (most of whom probably have the latest iPhone though I bet) and students can still use the main library for their studies. On students though, when i did my degree we were givena set list of books which we were encouraged to buy, if you didn't you'd struggle to get it from the library.

We have a local library near us, the main one in town is only a mile away though. I don't use either but don't think we need both especially as the local one is on pretty valuable land.

[jim mk2]

I reckon you could close (and sell off) all the "local" libraries but the each town/city's main Library should stay. Then run a mobile library service for all those old people who can't get to it. With book sbeing so cheap nowadays on the likes Amazon I would also guess a big culture change has happened to a lot of middle-class people where now they will just buy it from the web for a £5 delivered rather than spend the same-ish to go to the library and borrow it.

There are internet cafe's for poor people who can't afford a PC (most of whom probably have the latest iPhone though I bet) and students can still use the main library for their studies. On students though, when i did my degree we were givena set list of books which we were encouraged to buy, if you didn't you'd struggle to get it from the library.

We have a local library near us, the main one in town is only a mile away though. I don't use either but don't think we need both especially as the local one is on pretty valuable land.

Unbelieveable.

[Guest bluerovers]

I would also point out that it's not just 'poor' people who have to use libraries. Students and academics are, and should be, entitled to use the facilities without ridiculous insinuations that there are better resources out there for 'rich' people.

As I said, when I was at Uni we were given the book's list we needed and were encouraged to buy them. There is no excuse as that is what the student loan is for (surprisingly it's not just for p*ssing up the wall) and if you tires to get them from the library they would always be out.

Most unis (if not all) have their own libraries anyway (mine was a former polytechnic and had a library) and if not students are young people who can get to the 'main' library which I think all cities/town should keep.

Unbelieveable.

Why?

[BuckyRover]

The greatest good for the greatest number. Keeping libraries open that have very few people using them is not a good use of finite, public money.

It would be nice if they were kept open, but they aren't used like they were in the past.

As someone has already pointed out, if it was a choice between a new cancer drug and keeping open an unused library, it's not a difficult decision. It also gives some insight into the task faced by the coalition.

[rebelmswar]

I think removing libraries is about the worst thing possible to do.

There are far, far, far more wasteful and useless sponges of funds than libraries.

Just goes to show the dumbing down of our society when libraries are no longer cherished for the fantastic resource and monumental testament to freedom and enlightenment that they are.

[MarkBRFC71]

Just goes to show the dumbing down of our society when libraries are no longer cherished for the fantastic resource and monumental testament to freedom and enlightenment that they are.

What do you think the internet is for (besides BRFCS, p0rn and gambling)?

[rebelmswar]

What do you think the internet is for (besides BRFCS, p0rn and gambling)?

Not the same.

[Paul]

You've missed his point...

You originally said (in effect) that libraries were there to help out the poorer member of society (Internet, cheap CD rentals etc) but then the example you gave was you and your family (who you've now admitted aren't poor).

I think that was what he was getting at. The point about libraries being useful for poor people is a good one, but libraries exitsting so a fairly well off family can get CDs and DVDs cheaper than they could at Blockbuster is not a good reason for them existing (which was essentuially your original argument).

I did understand the point - which basically was "why should I, as someone who is fortunate to enjoy a good job, be subsidised by others who may earn less or be out of work." Having re-read my response I can see that it would have been better posted as this:

I think the question can only come from someone who doesn't use a public library. Chorley library is a tremendous resource, for one thing providing computers for people to access the internet, presumably these are people who cannot afford the luxury of a machine at home.

Our family visits every two or three weeks to borrow books, CDs, DVDs, even games for a fraction of their true value. Libraries must never be closed or hived off to the "more efficient" private sector.

There were two points here, firstly the public library is a fantastic resource and secondly I was trying to illustrate the great value offered to everyone which is partly what makes it so valuable.

In responding to tashor I made the point I pay, proportionately, the same tax as any other user and am therefore entitled to use the facility. The only solution to ensuring the "well-off" (whatever that is) don't benefit unduly would be to have some form of means testing on library use................but then you'd have to apply that to hundreds of other services

[LeChuck]

presumably these are people who cannot afford the luxury of a machine at home.

A computer at home is not seen as a 'luxury' item, we're not in the 1980s.

A computer for internet browsing/Microsoft Office can be had for next to nothing nowadays. People are literally giving away CRT monitors and a second hand PC could be had for well under £50. Internet access on top is about £10 a month too.

I honestly don't believe there are enough people who can't afford that to justify keeping libraries open (for that purpose). If money is a problem then, at those prices, the issue is a much wider one of poverty...and that isn't solved with free books and CDs.

Libraries are incredibly outdated as an information resource. It would be sad in a nostalgic sense if they were to start closing, but in reality society would lose very little. The internet, be it as a direct source of information or a means of purchasing cheap second hand books, provides a far more cost-effective and efficient way of accessing information to the general public.

[Paul]

Just goes to show the dumbing down of our society when libraries are no longer cherished for the fantastic resource and monumental testament to freedom and enlightenment that they are.

Exactly. I can't quantify it, I doubt any of us could, but I would suspect the public library has helped enormous numbers of less well-off people improve their broader education than many, many other institutions in the country.

[jim mk2]

Our local library is small and not particularly well stocked and I doubt it would be of use to students but it is an important educational and recreational resource that is well used by children (encouraged by their enlightened mothers) and older people. It also has a computer section where people can use the internet. I have no idea if it makes or loses money but that is not the point. To close such a useful facility would be a regressive step and a terrible blow to the community that in the past 40 years had had to suffer the closure of its railway station, reduction of bus services, local factories and employers and pubs and shops. With each succesive cut a community and a nation slowly dies. This is Tory Britain.

[rebelmswar]

In responding to tashor I made the point I pay, proportionately, the same tax as any other user and am therefore entitled to use the facility. The only solution to ensuring the "well-off" (whatever that is) don't benefit unduly would be to have some form of means testing on library use................but then you'd have to apply that to hundreds of other services

And therein lies the crux.

If more people were to use the library for its function and tried to better themselves with the fantastic resource that they have available, the level of education and the average wage would be far better in the country. We have a culture of sedentary "Why bother" people who believe that the level of learning they require is how to open a fridge or open a can of lager. Most countries would kill for such a library system, and the population would utilize it for its function.

You can get pretty much any book that has been written through inter-library loans and such, it’s a shame and a disgrace that people with so much knowledge and information close at hand refuse to use it.

The Internet is not, and never will be, the same. You have to wade through so much utter tripe to find something that MAY be factual. Look at the takeover thread for a prime example.

[Paul]

A computer at home is not seen as a 'luxury' item, we're not in the 1980s.

OK it's not a luxury but it is something which is not attainable / affordable for some families. Such families may well have a PC but it doesn't mean it matched those two criteria. It's a bit like Sky TV, lots of people who can't afford it have it.

A computer for internet browsing/Microsoft Office can be had for next to nothing nowadays. People are literally giving away CRT monitors and a second hand PC could be had for well under £50. Internet access on top is about £10 a month too.

I honestly don't believe there are enough people who can't afford that to justify keeping libraries open (for that purpose). If money is a problem then, at those prices, the issue is a much wider one of poverty...and that isn't solved with free books and CDs.

Le Chuck I think you'll find there are far too many households in this country for whom £10 / month is a lot of money. Sadly those numbers are likely to increase in the next five years. It is all too easy for those fortunate to be employed and earning reasonable money, (in which I most definetely include myself as I have no idea how hard it must be to live without money), to underestimate just how difficult life is for sections of our society.

Libraries are incredibly outdated as an information resource. It would be sad in a nostalgic sense if they were to start closing, but in reality society would lose very little. The internet, be it as a direct source of information or a means of purchasing cheap second hand books, provides a far more cost-effective and efficient way of accessing information to the general public.

If libraries have computers and internet access this means they are completely up to date as an information resource and crucially as they are free to use allow every citizen an equal opportunity to access the information available on the web, regardless of how accurate much of it may be. As for secondhand books I imagine the postage cost per book is such that it hardly makes financial sense for poorer people to pay money to Amazon etc and the post office when they can order any book they wish from the local library for free.

[LeChuck]

OK it's not a luxury but it is something which is not attainable / affordable for some families. Such families may well have a PC but it doesn't mean it matched those two criteria. It's a bit like Sky TV, lots of people who can't afford it have it.

Le Chuck I think you'll find there are far too many households in this country for whom £10 / month is a lot of money. Sadly those numbers are likely to increase in the next five years. It is all too easy for those fortunate to be employed and earning reasonable money, (in which I most definetely include myself as I have no idea how hard it must be to live without money), to underestimate just how difficult life is for sections of our society.

I don't doubt that some families can't afford it, but at the prices we're talking it really isn't going to be many. I've looked around and you can get internet access for £6 a month. What's that...half a TV license? Two packets of fags? It's really not much.

I'm not sure I get the Sky TV comparison either, that is most certainly a luxury. Internet access is becoming a necessity, like gas and electricity. There are plenty of debates on this at the moment, some people are suggesting internet access is now a human right.

What is the cost of running these small local libraries across the country?

I'd suggest schemes to get old second-hand computers (of which there are loads knocking around, check Freecyle and the like) to poor families and subsidies on cheap internet access would be a better use of funds. Libraries really aren't a solution to the problem if £6 a month is too much for a family to afford.

[Guest bluerovers]

A computer at home is not seen as a 'luxury' item, we're not in the 1980s.

A computer for internet browsing/Microsoft Office can be had for next to nothing nowadays. People are literally giving away CRT monitors and a second hand PC could be had for well under £50. Internet access on top is about £10 a month too.

I honestly don't believe there are enough people who can't afford that to justify keeping libraries open (for that purpose). If money is a problem then, at those prices, the issue is a much wider one of poverty...and that isn't solved with free books and CDs.

Libraries are incredibly outdated as an information resource. It would be sad in a nostalgic sense if they were to start closing, but in reality society would lose very little. The internet, be it as a direct source of information or a means of purchasing cheap second hand books, provides a far more cost-effective and efficient way of accessing information to the general public.

Something we can agree on LeChuck

Exactly. I can't quantify it, I doubt any of us could, but I would suspect the public library has helped enormous numbers of less well-off people improve their broader education than many, many other institutions in the country.

I would suspect the Internet is doing more for information gaining in the present.

Our local library is small and not particularly well stocked and I doubt it would be of use to students but it is an important educational and recreational resource that is well used by children (encouraged by their enlightened mothers) and older people. It also has a computer section where people can use the internet. I have no idea if it makes or loses money but that is not the point.

When there's a budget deficit as big as ours, sadly it is the point.

If more people were to use the library for its function and tried to better themselves with the fantastic resource that they have available, the level of education and the average wage would be far better in the country. We have a culture of sedentary "Why bother" people who believe that the level of learning they require is how to open a fridge or open a can of lager. Most countries would kill for such a library system, and the population would utilize it for its function.

In that case our culture doesn't warrant libraries. But in all seriousness I could equally argue that someone who reads Wikipedia everyday would rise their level of education.

[rebelmswar]

In that case our culture doesn't warrant libraries. But in all seriousness I could equally argue that someone who reads Wikipedia everyday would rise their level of education.

You owe me money for a new office chair, I just pished myself laughing.

[jim mk2]

When there's a budget deficit as big as ours, sadly it is the point.

The budget deficit is a red herring for the Tories to carry out idelogically driven cuts. Labour had already put in place that would have halved the deficit in 4 years even at the current slow pace of economic growth - faster growth and increased tax receipts would see the deficit reduced much faster. It's attitude like yours in which people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing that eroded the quality of public services in this country. Closing libraries to save money in the short term while damaging the fabric of the nation in the long term is indefensible.

Libraries are incredibly outdated as an information resource. It would be sad in a nostalgic sense if they were to start closing, but in reality society would lose very little. The internet, be it as a direct source of information or a means of purchasing cheap second hand books, provides a far more cost-effective and efficient way of accessing information to the general public.

Short-sighted and wrong. See my post above. .

[Sandiway Blue]

The budget deficit is a red herring for the Tories to carry out idelogically driven cuts. Labour had already put in place that would have halved the deficit in 4 years even at the current slow pace of economic growth - faster growth and increased tax receipts would see the deficit reduced much faster. It's attitude like yours in which people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing that eroded the quality of public services in this country. Closing libraries to save money in the short term while damaging the fabric of the nation in the long term is indefensible.

http://money-news.dailyfinance.co.uk/article/2010/09/27/uk_economic_recovery_under_way_imf

Never let the truth get in the way of a good ol` rant eh Jim?