[Archived] Election

[RovertheHill]

France and Italy both overtook Britain in the global economic league table in the 2008 - 9 worldwide recession showing with Germany (and the US) that strong unions are a force for good in economic success. The deal securing the future of Jaguar / Land Rover this week was hailed as a victory for management / trade union co-operation so there might be hope that Britain can follow the German model. I note that the right wing press here gave the unions very little credit for their part in the deal but that was only to be expected.

You're wrong about pay. German managers' pay in significantly less than their equivalents in the FT-SE 100 and German employees have higher wages and living standards than British workers. It is time organised labour in Britain made a comeback.

I'm sorry Jim but it depends upon the tables you look at. In 2010 the World Bank and IMF 2009 tables both had Britain above France and Italy for total GDP. In addition, if you use GDP per capita ppp then Britain pops up above them both AND Germany. Only when you look at GDP per capita nominal (which can be heavily influenced by currency values) do they edge above Britain. Having said all that these tables have Ireland above the lot of us so it shows what they know.

And I'd like to see the source for your FTSE comparison.

I still argue that a system of political cooperation is the most important factor. Without putting words in your mouth, some of the things you post on here make me despair that we will ever get any kind of electoral reform

[jim mk2]

I benefitted from lower fees .

Taxpayers money wasted on people who cannot be arsed to learn to spell correctly. The hypocrisy of the right is staggering.

I still argue that a system of political cooperation is the most important factor. Without putting words in your mouth, some of the things you post on here make me despair that we will ever get any kind of electoral reform

This country desperately needs electoral reform. The present system is outdated and is unfair. Without electoral reform I don't see the point of the coalition govt for the Lib Dems. They have caved in against their instincts to Tory demands for public spending cuts and it could be all for nothing if they do not achieve reform.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Anybody looking for a reminder how great things were under the "Iron Lady" just try " The Boys From The Black Stuff- Yossers Story" tonight at 9.30 on BBC 4. I won't be watching, even after all these years it's still tooo painful.

Celebrating a death.

I love the left. So hypocritical.

LeChuck. I was originally against the fees increase but I

have changed my mind. It's only an off putting amount of money if you are poor at maths. It's not redeemable until you are earning 21k per annum. It's a small amount that comes out of your wage and the choice is do you want to earn a higher amount of money and lose a little bit from your wage or do you want to earn less money.

I benefitted from lower fees but I will be advising my sister who would be due to start in 2013 that she should still go for it. It's not ideal (ideally it would be free) but these are not ideal times.

What's hypocritical ?- I hated her then, I hate her now.

[thenodrog]

What's hypocritical ?- I hated her then, I hate her now.

On the bins were you?

'Winter of discontent. http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=winter+of+discontent&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=lo67TN_oK8iEswbv6OS1DQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CDsQsAQwBA

Week after week of household refuse left uncollected, vermin breeding unchecked and the dead left to rot without burial. Not nice.

A timely reminder of the dreadful legacy of Callaghans Labour govt that Margaret Thatcher had to address in her first term of office. Offer embittered opinions all you like Tyrone but you cannot change history.

[Flopsy]

The current cuts will take us back to 2006 spending levels

The horror!

The HORROR!!!!

[jim mk2]

History will record Thatcher is the most evil prime leader in British history, a hard, unsympathetic woman whose desire to rob the working class ("the enemy within") and reward the rich caused great misery and suffering for hundreds of thousands of people in this country. While yuppies laughed and swilled champagne, people died because of her policies that left great swathes of the north of England devastated with high unemployment and a culture of drugs and crime.

Thatcher is seen by the right as a great economic reformer but it is forgotten that VAT doubled on her watch, hitting the poorest hardest, inflation rose sharply to 15 per cent at one point in the 1980s, unemployment rose from 1.4 million in 1979 to 3.5 million by 1982 with one in eight working-age adults out of work and, in non-Tory areas such as Northern Ireland, the rate was 20 per cent (one in five), while in Scotland and north east and north west England it was 16 per cent.

To pay for her reforms she privatised vital national public utilities ("selling off the family silver"" Harold MacMillan said) that in the ensuing 20 years in the private sector has seen water, electricity and gas bills rocket, and she also created the climate for the recent disastrous slump in the British economy: excessive mortgage lending, over-inflated property prices, easy credit for consumers, personal debt, deregulation of markets, financial speculation, the "greed is good, screw all the rest so long as I'm alright Jack" and "there's no such thing as society", selfish, uncaring culture.

Under Thatcher crime rates rose: vehicle-related theft, domestic burglary and violent crime overall, all went up. Compare this with Labour's 13 years in power, during which all crime fell, and was down 43 per cent in total.

Her legacy was a selfish, arrogant, inward-looking and xenophobic nation that over the past 13 years under Labour has been transformed with crime down, the NHS saved, schools saved, more people than ever before going to university, and a country more comfortable in itself.

[SouthAussieRover]

Her legacy was a selfish, arrogant, inward-looking and xenophobic nation.

The greengrocer's daughter's protege (aka R Murdoch) lead to Jim adopting similar views re Australia.

[arachnica]

History will record Thatcher is the most evil prime leader in British history, a hard, unsympathetic woman whose desire to rob the working class ("the enemy within") and reward the rich caused great misery and suffering for hundreds of thousands of people in this country. While yuppies laughed and swilled champagne, people died because of her policies that left great swathes of the north of England devastated with high unemployment and a culture of drugs and crime.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a ridiculous. Thatcher won a higher percentage of the vote in 1979 than Blair did in 97 and kept her vote at similar level while Blair's eroded. In 1979 she got a 10%+ swing amongst the working class and skilled working class (to around 32% of the working class vote) a group she kept all the way through the 80's. She won and kept seats in areas the Labour Party thought they owned.

As for the rest of your post - some of your facts are awry. Electricity and gas bills fell by double digit amounts straight after privatisation (one of the most powerful ways of putting money back into the pocket of the poor who spend disproportionate amounts on utility bills). Prices stayed low throughout the 80's and 90's - they only started to climb in 2003 when the regulators failed to crack down on the abuse of wholesale gas prices. Countries around the world followed our lead and now only a few countries have nationalised utilities - and those pay a high subsidy for doing so.

British Airways was turned from a laughing stock into one of the world great airlines under private ownership. The privatisation of British Telecom started a competitive communications market which resulted in more choice and lower prices and ushered in new dynamic communications companies such as Vodafone.

No supporter of the New Labour project can criticise the right for "excessive mortgage lending, over-inflated property prices, easy credit for consumers, personal debt, deregulation of markets, financial speculation". We have just come through the one of the world's great recessions, and the last Labour Government was completely complicit in providing the financial sector with a complete free reign. Who said: "we are intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" - none other than one of the critical architects of the Labour project, Mandelson.

Blair and Brown's legacy was a country even greater divided by wealth than in 1997. A country where 5.4 million people now sit on out of work benefits. The poor areas in 1997 are relatively just as poor if not more so now. They watched while the economy became an elaborate Ponzi scheme built on the unstable foundations of unsustainable levels of Government, personal and corporate debt all the while praying that things didn't go wrong - and they did - and just like in 1979 another Government has to come in and clean up the mess.

[thenodrog]

History will record Thatcher is the most evil prime leader in British history, a hard, unsympathetic woman whose desire to rob the working class ("the enemy within") and reward the rich caused great misery and suffering for hundreds of thousands of people in this country. While yuppies laughed and swilled champagne, people died because of her policies that left great swathes of the north of England devastated with high unemployment and a culture of drugs and crime.

Thatcher is seen by the right as a great economic reformer but it is forgotten that VAT doubled on her watch, hitting the poorest hardest, inflation rose sharply to 15 per cent at one point in the 1980s, unemployment rose from 1.4 million in 1979 to 3.5 million by 1982 with one in eight working-age adults out of work and, in non-Tory areas such as Northern Ireland, the rate was 20 per cent (one in five), while in Scotland and north east and north west England it was 16 per cent.

To pay for her reforms she privatised vital national public utilities ("selling off the family silver"" Harold MacMillan said) that in the ensuing 20 years in the private sector has seen water, electricity and gas bills rocket, and she also created the climate for the recent disastrous slump in the British economy: excessive mortgage lending, over-inflated property prices, easy credit for consumers, personal debt, deregulation of markets, financial speculation, the "greed is good, screw all the rest so long as I'm alright Jack" and "there's no such thing as society", selfish, uncaring culture.

Under Thatcher crime rates rose: vehicle-related theft, domestic burglary and violent crime overall, all went up. Compare this with Labour's 13 years in power, during which all crime fell, and was down 43 per cent in total.

Her legacy was a selfish, arrogant, inward-looking and xenophobic nation that over the past 13 years under Labour has been transformed with[/font] crime down, the NHS saved, schools saved, more people than ever before going to university, and a country more comfortable in itself.

I think what you are saying is that she 'got on' .

[BuckyRover]

Jim will be dead before Labour get back in office.

Shame.

Enjoy the cuts and welcome to the real world. I'm moving to London in the mean time. I'm recession proofing myself.

[thenodrog]

Jim will be dead before Labour get back in office.

Shame.

Enjoy the cuts and welcome to the real world. I'm moving to London in the mean time. I'm recession proofing myself.

I bet you can't wait Bucky.

My local day of celebration might include either a Brut natural or Brut zero champagne I think. Something extra dry to the point of sour. Byrne's of Clitheroe should have something suitable I'm sure. Whats likely to be your choice Bucky?

[jim mk2]

I'm moving to London in the mean time. I'm recession proofing myself.

Ayyup, me stalker's back again.

You'll feel at home in the smoke with all the other Tory voters. Enjoy the forthcoming Tory recession.

Moving on, the defence "review" will see the Ark Royal aircraft carrier and its British icon Harrier jump-jets scrapped immediately to pay for the construction of 2 new £6bn aircraft carriers which will leave Britain without a carrier capable of flying jets for around a decade while the new carriers are built.

A defence chief admitted last night that if the Falklands or similar conflict were to occur again we would not be able to fight it.

And the increasingly ludicrous David Cameron today pledged Britain would remain a "front rank" military power. Our Nato military partners must be falling over laughing at that one.

You couldn't make it up.

[MarkBRFC71]

Ayyup, me stalker's back again.

You'll feel at home in the smoke with all the other Tory voters. Enjoy the forthcoming Tory recession.

Moving on, the defence "review" will see the Ark Royal aircraft carrier and its British icon Harrier jump-jets scrapped immediately to pay for the construction of 2 new £6bn aircraft carriers which will leave Britain without a carrier capable of flying jets for around a decade while the new carriers are built.

A defence chief admitted last night that if the Falklands or similar conflict were to occur again we would not be able to fight it.

And the increasingly ludicrous David Cameron today pledged Britain would remain a "front rank" military power. Our Nato military partners must be falling over laughing at that one.

You couldn't make it up.

Ark Royal was due to be scrapped in 2014 anyway, and the 2 Queen Elizabeth class carriers were ordered some time ago - the Ark Royal is NOT being scrapped to pay for them. The first one (HMS Queen Elizabeth) will enter service in 2016, not 2020.

The aging Harrier fleet began being withdrawn gradually some time ago, and not all will go with the Ark Royal. There will be a number of GR9's retained until the entry into service (2016-18) of the F-35 Lightning II.

As usual, never let the facts get in the way of an irrational, bile-fuelled rant at the Tories eh Jim?

[jim mk2]

The decision to decommission the Ark Royal and axe the Harriers means that, until at least 2019, no planes would be able to fly from the new aircraft carriers.

What's the purpose of an aircraft carrier if not to carry aircraft? To leave our country without a single fixed-wing aircraft able to fly off our aircraft carriers for a decade is barmy.

Cameron attacked by RN Harrier pilot.

http://www.telegraph...rier-pilot.html

Cameron's claim that Britain is a first-rate military power is laughable. Britain has not been able to afford to be a top level power since the early 1960s when we cancelled the TSR2 and bought American. The sooner we stop kidding ourselves the better.

[thenodrog]

The decision to decommission the Ark Royal and axe the Harriers means that, until at least 2019, no planes would be able to fly from the new aircraft carriers.

What's the purpose of an aircraft carrier if not to carry aircraft? To leave our country without a single fixed-wing aircraft able to fly off our aircraft carriers for a decade is barmy.

Cameron attacked questioned by RN Harrier pilot.

http://www.telegraph...rier-pilot.html

Cameron's claim that Britain is a first-rate military power is laughable. Britain has not been able to afford to be a top level power since the early 1960s when we cancelled the TSR2 and bought American. The sooner we stop kidding ourselves the better.

Corrected above for you. Lets not sacrifice accuracy on the alter of convenience Jim "Lt Cdr Kris Ward, 37, questioned Mr Cameron.... "

btw I actually saw the TSR2 flying a time or two just before the entire project was cancelled as one of the first acts of Harold Wilsons disastrous first Labour Govt ..... I'd wager that you fully supported that at the time too.

[jim mk2]

I actually saw the TSR2 flying a time or two just before the entire project was cancelled as one of the first acts of Harold Wilsons disastrous first Labour Govt

Ayyup, me other stalker's back.

To correct you, Harold Wilson's Labour govt inherited in 1964 an economy in a dire mess after 13 years of Tory misrule. The Cabinet, which included Blackburn MP Barbara Castle, held an infamous meeting shortly after taking over in which they all were all holding their heads in their hands because they did not know which way to turn. In the end Wilson decided to devalue the pound which eventually got the economy moving again. The British economy performed well 1964 - 70 but then Edward Heath took over .....

I saw the TSR2 flying over Ramsgreave / Wilpshire. Potential world-beating aircraft but the govt had to decide between it and Concorde. Wrong decision in my view.

[tashor]

The "savage" cuts of the government's spending review take us back to the levels of 2006/7..........

Had we allowed public spending to grow prudently after this time we would be in a far better position now..............

BUT...

...........Bruin pished your money up the wall..............

You will see nothing for it and have to pay the interest on this lost generation of public cash with the loss of your jobs/higher taxes/loss of public services etc. etc. etc. .................

Bruin's plan? - leave our kids to pay for his profligacy for decades to come...........

We'll be dead by then so who gives a fleurk..........

Never mind Thatcher - We're 'avin' a party when Bruin goes down, 'Avin' a party when Bruin goes down........

And some of you sad fleurkers are desperately trying to lay the blame for all this at the door of a government elected years after the policies that left this nation in ruin

[thenodrog]

Ayyup, me other stalker's back.

To correct you, Harold Wilson's Labour govt inherited in 1964 an economy in a dire mess after 13 years of Tory misrule. The Cabinet, which included Blackburn MP Barbara Castle, held an infamous meeting shortly after taking over in which they all were all holding their heads in their hands because they did not know which way to turn.

History repeating itself but in reverse I see.

Only difference being that Harold Wilson inherited a relatively strong economy before he screwed it up.

[jim mk2]

Only difference being that Harold Wilson inherited a relatively strong economy before he screwed it up.

Not true. Can't you read ?

[jim mk2]

As Britain braces itself for the ConDems spending review today and the likelihood that 500,000 public sector workers will lose their jobs through no fault of their own, the people who caused this financial crisis continue to reward themselves with sickening pay packages.

Goldman Sachs kicked off the banks' annual bonus season by announcing that it will be paying out $13 billion in bonuses this year, an average of £234,000 per employee but of course much higher for the select few at the top.

Osborne claims the forthcoming cuts will be "fair". Fairness would be taxing these people to the hilt.

[http://www.independe...es-2111318.html

[Paul]

So George Osborne's big day has arrived. While I fully appreciate the need for a reduction in government spending I am still waiting for an explanation of how the private sector is going to create the 500,000 jobs needed to re-employ those thrown out of the public sector. This is the fundamental flaw in the government's policy, there is no possibility of these half million jobs being created in the time needed by those who will be out of work.

[dave birch]

Paul, you might have added that they will now be a burden on the economy, rather than contributing to it.

[dave birch]

Just read on the beeb that your governor of the BoE has said that they have put in 200 BILLION pounds into the economy!!

Here we are putting up interest rates to slow ours down!

[thenodrog]

Not true. Can't you read ?

It's you that appears to be having trouble reading ....

"Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards - and good luck! Liam."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1279043/George-Osborne-deliver-emergency-Budget-June-22.html#ixzz12t0AEAqn

So George Osborne's big day has arrived. While I fully appreciate the need for a reduction in government spending I am still waiting for an explanation of how the private sector is going to create the 500,000 jobs needed to re-employ those thrown out of the public sector. This is the fundamental flaw in the government's policy, there is no possibility of these half million jobs being created in the time needed by those who will be out of work.

Been on TV this morning that in it's period in office New Labour created 800,000 public sector jobs out of nothing so maybe it's just a case of redressing the balance a touch.

btw Does anybody know what those jobs were?

[dave birch]

It's you that appears to be having trouble reading ....

"Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards - and good luck! Liam."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1279043/George-Osborne-deliver-emergency-Budget-June-22.html#ixzz12t0AEAqn

Been on TV this morning that in it's period in office New Labour created 800,000 public sector jobs out of nothing so maybe it's just a case of redressing the balance a touch.

btw Does anybody know what those jobs were?

btw, does anyone know who's going to pay for their unemployment benefits?

Some of those "jobs", theno, may, just may, have been good for the country you live in.

How about it, just for once, you, yes you, Theno back up all your rhetoric and stand for Council/ parliament and show the real England what you're all about.