[Archived] Election

[LeChuck]

They hear the word DEBT and go crazy.

Yeah...I wonder where they learnt that from?! There has been more sensationalism regarding national debt than anything else over the past 24 months! If 'debt' has become an irrationally intimidating word then we're to blame, not them.

Kids of 15/16 from poor backgrounds will be intimated by £9k a year fees, for some that won't be far off what their parents earn a year. The thought of borrowing £40k or so to study will kill the aspirations of some of the less well off. Whilst your post does have a ring of truth, it's very difficult for kids to grasp the economics laid out in your quote, you can't hold that against them.

It's going to create an even more elitist education system, strengthening and widening the class divide.

[BuckyRover]

I don't see an alternative. It should be the duty of the politicians and the media to educate the public. You don't pay it back if you don't benefit, nobody is going to ring you up demanding money and if you still have the desire to go Uni you should not be put off.

I paid £1500 per year, my first sister £3000 and my youngest sister will pay £9000. I still think it's worth it though and I will advise her to go for it.

This was going to happen whoever got into power, as I said previously Labour commissioned the report and the manifesto written by Ed said they were going to adopt it.

[jim mk2]

You should be directing more anger and blame towards the previous government that left the public finances in such a dire state resulting in the need for there to be widespread cuts.

To repeat, once again, for those who cannot learn.

Labour had to print money to the tune of £850bn save the economy and the whole country after the combined mess left by the banks and the worldwide recession.

End of.

Well done to the students for showing their disgust at the unnecessary cuts foisted on this country by a vicious, ideological govt.

Just a foretaste of the social upheaval to come as thousands of people are thrown on the jobs scrapheap in the next 12 months.

[Biddy]

To repeat, once again, for those who cannot learn.

Labour had to print money to the tune of £850bn save the economy and the whole country after the combined mess left by the banks and the worldwide recession.

End of.

Well done to the students for showing their disgust at the unnecessary cuts foisted on this country by a vicious, ideological govt.

Just a foretaste of the social upheaval to come as thousands of people are thrown on the jobs scrapheap in the next 12 months.

Am I right in thinking you're a Labour supporter? Haven't really picked that up yet over the last 114 pages.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Well done to the students for showing their disgust at the unnecessary cuts foisted on this country by a vicious, ideological govt.

I assume you are talking about the march before they decided to go to Millbank? I don't see how anyone could condone what they did to the building or the attempt to seriously injure or kill a policeman or policewoman.

[BuckyRover]

To repeat, once again, for those who cannot learn.

Labour had to print money to the tune of £850bn save the economy and the whole country after the combined mess left by the banks and the worldwide recession.

End of.

Well done to the students for showing their disgust at the unnecessary cuts foisted on this country by a vicious, ideological govt.

Just a foretaste of the social upheaval to come as thousands of people are thrown on the jobs scrapheap in the next 12 months.

Surprisingly quiet about Woolas eh jim?

A real blow to Ed's credibility and judgement, appointing him Shadow immigration minister. Those disgraceful Labour MPs coming out to support him only highlighting rifts in the Labour camp. (Dave Miliband coming out to support him ffs).

I would be very worried about further civil disobedience if I were you. If this Government falls apart we will probably end up with a Tory majority for a fixed five year term.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Trashing Millbank is nothing, the Conservatives deserve a hell of a lot more. What they're trying to do the higher education system is disgusting.

You just get the feeling that there will be alot more public disorder to come.....and some.

[thenodrog]

You just get the feeling that there will be alot more public disorder to come.....and some.

Most of them politically biased to disrupt the country. The ludicrous Poll Tax situation again. Unfortunately the anarchists and the work shy unwashed got a result then. They shouldn't have of course as it will encourage them to crawl out from under their stones again now.

So lets hope the politicians of all parties unite in condemnnation this time. They need to. I see Douglas Alexander MP Lab Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions was backing the moves this morning and suggesting that Labour had already started this process and would have continued if they had won the election. He rightly accompanied his support with the obvious warning that coming down hard on the long term unemployed and the work shy is necessary as long as there is work for them to have. He seemed to suggest that there weren't enough jobs to go around but with over 2m migrant workers in the country from Eastern Europe I'm sure there must be some considerable scope to go at. Problem being that most employees who take on Eastern Europeans are usually impressed with their positive attitude to work.

[JAL]

Why can't we send the troops in the deal with the minority then ?

Chief Police Officers are cacking it after the guy got pushed over and collapsed at the last summit protest. Sad as it was, in the real world thousands on that day presented a real threat to public order so Kettling was employed.

Send in the troops to deal with some harmless youngsters, is that really a good idea because after all we've just gone and condemed these youngsters to a lifetime of debt (thats the ones whose parents dont have a great deal of money or assets to begin with ) thus turning them into modern day state slaves living their future lives at the hands of the banks and future governments.

A fine, a prison sentance or any other form of punishment for these youngsters will be nothing compared to the punishment they will face in life through the impact of crippling damaging increase in tuition fees.

How is it for such a so called rich nation that we cant afford to educate our own children in higher education or is it simply just a case of we arent prepared to pay for other peoples children. I'm alright Jack.

Yeh, go on then lets send in the troops and show the world what we are really about.

[adopted scouser]

Send in the troops to deal with some harmless youngsters, is that really a good idea because after all we've just gone and condemed these youngsters to a lifetime of debt (thats the ones whose parents dont have a great deal of money or assets to begin with ) thus turning them into modern day state slaves living their future lives at the hands of the banks and future governments.

A fine, a prison sentance or any other form of punishment for these youngsters will be nothing compared to the punishment they will face in life through the impact of crippling damaging increase in tuition fees.

How is it for such a so called rich nation that we cant afford to educate our own children in higher education or is it simply just a case of we arent prepared to pay for other peoples children. I'm alright Jack.

Yeh, lets send in the troops and show the world what we are really about.

The harmless ones had nothing to worry about. How harmless were the ones throwing fire extinguishers off buildings, and smashing up public property ?

Jesus.

[JAL]

The harmless ones had nothing to worry about. How harmless were the ones throwing fire extinguishers off buildings, and smashing up public property ?

Jesus.

That is the one stand out, highly dangerous act seen from the tv pictures. A young, impulsive student thinking hes impressing but for all the wrong reasons caught up in the adrenalin of the riot, thank god nobody was critically hurt from his action.

Yet again though, that young mans sentance has already been passed.

[arachnica]

Yet again though, that young mans sentance has already been passed.

That young man's sentence is to earn 120k more over the course of his lifetime than his peers who didn't go to university.

His fees will be paid for by a loan subsidised (and risk free) by every taxpayer in this country. If he can afford it, he pays it back. If he can't he doesn't.

The NUS are reaping what they sow and should be held culpable for yesterdays activities - senior members have already admitted their direct involvement in the damage caused.

[JAL]

That young man's sentence is to earn 120k more over the course of his lifetime than his peers who didn't go to university.

His fees will be paid for by a loan subsidised (and risk free) by every taxpayer in this country. If he can afford it, he pays it back. If he can't he doesn't.

The NUS are reaping what they sow and should be held culpable for yesterdays activities - senior members have already admitted their direct involvement in the damage caused.

That lifetime course has been extended by another year and with Nick Clegg deputy PM coming out with the statement that this is a progressive plan, you have to ask, what is next ?

######! to it being a risk free loan by every taxpayer in this country, are you a b@nker.

[BuckyRover]

I have already pointed out they aren't slaves to debt. The only have to pay it back when earning over 21k per annum. It's s progressive tax on HIGH earners (I thought that is what everyone wanted). It's what Labour supposedly believe anyway.

If you don't want to have to pay back at a higher tax rate when earning more money, don't go to uni and don't earn the money.

Simple

[JAL]

I have already pointed out they aren't slaves to debt. The only have to pay it back when earning over 21k per annum. It's s progressive tax on HIGH earners (I thought that is what everyone wanted). It's what Labour supposedly believe anyway.

If you don't want to have to pay back at a higher tax rate when earning more money, don't go to uni and don't earn the money.

Why is it set at 21k per annum when the national average wage is around £27-28k, surely this is setting it too low, in order to get them repaying it back sooner rather than later.

21k x 3 1/2 this salary to go towards a house certainly isnt anywhere near enough these days to get on the housing ladder, pay your bills, and begin to repay your debt to society.

Agree with you Bucky that this plan is the one thats been agreed by all the main political parties.

[chaddyrovers]

My question is why does so many people going to uni and get drunk all the time and take drugs. Also they don't attend their lessons. That the sort of people you don't want going to uni's. I agree with that people should been allow to choose what they do as a career. But why do so many people go to uni and then can't find jobs in the sector that their study in. So end up working in Asda or Tesco. And not paying their fees and loans back.

I agree with them that fees should go up BUT not to 9000 pds but up to 4500 pds. Also why not get private companies to sponsor uni's like Engineering companies to pay for the student fees and they take the best students of out the class and they work for that company. I understand that not all courses could be this way.

I don't have a problem with people going to uni and having a good edcaution and a good job. My problem is when people go to uni and don't want a good edcaution but just to get drunk and not have a job. Just want to take the mick out of the tax payer.

There is plenty of good Modern apprenticeships out there and a good way to get on the job ladder. Then after that work for that company for a couple of years before setting up on your own if you are a roofer or plumber.

The protesters went to far yesterday. There is always a small group that have to go to far all the time. Nothing wrong with a protest and a peaceful one aswell. These are bad times for the country but tough choices have to be make. Not everybody will like the cuts coming but they have to be made. WE SHOULD ONLY SPEND THE MONEY WE'VE GOT AND NO MORE!!! I STILL BELEIVE HOW MUCH MONEY THE LABOUR GOVT HAVE SPEND AND GOT US INTO SO MUCH DEBT.

[thenodrog]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2075348/One-in-seven-students-drops-out-of-university.html

Almaost 25% Do not complete their courses! And that 75% includes the ones who graduate with degrees for the dole queues e.g. Events management, Media studies etc etc.

I suggest it'd be better for ALL if the academically weak ones were be filtered out before they go. A return to the 11 plus and tougher O's and A's should do the trick. I'd imagine that the country can easily afford to send 25%-30% of kids to Uni for nothing as long as they don't have to chuck good money after bad on the less intelligent ones.

[den]

I suggest it'd be better for ALL if the academically weak ones were be filtered out before they go.

Unfortunately it's the unrich that are being filtered out. Back to the days of the wealthy, rather than talented going to Universities. I thought you would be against that Gord.

[chaddyrovers]

Hope people are watching channel 4 now. on about Britain trillion pound horror. Where are the money went and who and what it was spend on. Also looking on how to get out of it?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

That'll teach the Con-Dems not to get on the wrong side of Mr Plod. Cuts to police manpower, I don't think so ! "I think I'll just look the other way whilst the scrotes trash the Tory H.Q." Maggie knew the score. First thing you do - massive pay rises to the Judges, Police and Army. you know it makes sense Dave.

[Bing]

Hope people are watching channel 4 now. on about Britain trillion pound horror. Where are the money went and who and what it was spend on. Also looking on how to get out of it?

It was shamelessly right-leaning but an excellent analysis of the economy and was refreshing to have a programme on for once which dared to attempt to debunk the myth that stopping pouring money into the public sector black hole would bring the country to its knees.

[DE.]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2075348/One-in-seven-students-drops-out-of-university.html

Almaost 25% Do not complete their courses! And that 75% includes the ones who graduate with degrees for the dole queues e.g. Events management, Media studies etc etc.

I suggest it'd be better for ALL if the academically weak ones were be filtered out before they go. A return to the 11 plus and tougher O's and A's should do the trick. I'd imagine that the country can easily afford to send 25%-30% of kids to Uni for nothing as long as they don't have to chuck good money after bad on the less intelligent ones.

Definitely too many people going to uni who either aren't prepared academically or are doing degrees that are useless. The relentless push from the Government to get as many kids as possible into University has been and is misguided. There should be far more emphasis on apprenticeship programs and incentives for businesses to train up school-leavers into a role.

[LeChuck]

I don't see an alternative. It should be the duty of the politicians and the media to educate the public. You don't pay it back if you don't benefit, nobody is going to ring you up demanding money and if you still have the desire to go Uni you should not be put off.

I paid £1500 per year, my first sister £3000 and my youngest sister will pay £9000. I still think it's worth it though and I will advise her to go for it.

This was going to happen whoever got into power, as I said previously Labour commissioned the report and the manifesto written by Ed said they were going to adopt it.

The alternative is that higher education should be funded, other countries manage it.

To get an idea of why, this story makes interesting reading. More money spent on housing benefit than police and universities combined? £11.2 billion on child benefit?! There are areas where billions are being thrown at nothing. I know the coalition is trying to tackle welfare, but they completely pussied out on the child benefit and I expect they'll do the same elsewhere.

I have already pointed out they aren't slaves to debt. The only have to pay it back when earning over 21k per annum. It's s progressive tax on HIGH earners (I thought that is what everyone wanted). It's what Labour supposedly believe anyway.

If you don't want to have to pay back at a higher tax rate when earning more money, don't go to uni and don't earn the money.

Simple

Since you're obviously a fairly smart guy, I'll assume your inability to see this from the point of view of poor families is down to your upbringing. Not a dig at all, I just feel like I'm banging my head against a wall trying to get the point across! It will deter bright kids from poor families, it's an incredibly huge amount of personal debt to be taking on.

If universities really do have to pay for themselves, or rather the students have to pay for it, then a graduate tax would make much more sense. Perhaps even a combination of low fees and a future graduate tax. To try and second guess your 'brain drain' response, a contribution from the tax could always be capped. i.e. once you a hit a ceiling figure you cease to pay the tax.

It's hardly surprising that Browne's report can't comprehend how it will affect talented kids from young families. Given his upbringing it's unlikely that money has ever been a cause of concern for him. I can't believe a more balanced report wasn't commissioned - and I'm fully aware this was Labour's idea.

Also...

Definitely too many people going to uni who either aren't prepared academically or are doing degrees that are useless. The relentless push from the Government to get as many kids as possible into University has been and is misguided. There should be far more emphasis on apprenticeship programs and incentives for businesses to train up school-leavers into a role.

I agree with this. Too many people are going who shouldn't be. A 'quality over quantity' approach would bring down costs.

[BuckyRover]

I agree that numbers could be reduced, yet they have decided this method is more palatable. The coalition is already unpopular, closing down lesser Universities en masse to reduce the numbers going to Uni, can you imagine the reaction?

I agree that it may put people off but it shouldn't. The terms are incredibly favourable. It's the only "debt" that you will ever incur that isn't assessed on your ability to repay, hence it is not real debt. Real debt is scary, the creditor has a right to take back what it is owed but nobody is ever going to chase you for student debt.

As I said before, this is failure of communication. It could easily be seen to be fairer than it appears at present.

[Ozz]

Hope none of you Tory voters are planning on being in hospital soon.

BBC-26,841 job cuts-the majority of which are front-line clinical posts.