[Archived] Election

[BuckyRover]

Yeah, but he does have a point about banker's bonus's, doesn't he? Without going back to the previous governments stance, does no-one who supports the coalition agree with Jim's point?

Not really. Labour would have dropped it also if they believed it would result in a loss in tax from the financial sector. 50% tax on their bonuses is what pays public sector wages.

It's not nice, and in a perfect world it wouldn't happen, but lifes not perfect.

IMO

[92er]

this is the only thread where jim talks sense!!!!

Ok without biting my head off, where has our govt "found " 7 billion pounds ? alls we hear is we are skint ,we have no money,cuts cuts job losses?

They have gained the £7 billion by instigating their policies as soon as they came into office.

It will be interesting to see if they continue with the same language along the lines of their inheriting huge problems and that their choices of policy are the only possible ones.

Oh, and we're being good neighbours.

[jim mk2]

Ok without biting my head off, where has our govt "found " 7 billion pounds ? ?

Unbelievably this £7bn rescue loan to the Irish is to be funded by taxpayers cash that he has clawed back from the British public through jobs cuts and reductions in public services. Tory ideology gone mad.

And Osborne is wrong about the Irish too - they have never been our friends, not in two world wars and not in our battle against terrorist groups sponsored by their government.

[Paul]

Jim this was my first reaction to the news but I'm not sure you are correct. As I now understand this Britain will probably borrow this money at around 1.5% and lend it to Ireland at 6-7%. We also need to remember Ireland is far more important to us as a trade partner than many other countries. Not supporting the Irish could conceivably trigger another bank crisis - though one does have to ask why our banks have been lending into a clearly unsustainable boom based on building property for a tiny population that don't all need two houses.

I often agree with the thrust of your arguments, if not the style, but on this one I feel you're misleading folk to back up your attacks on the Tories.

[Rover Down Under]

And Osborne is wrong about the Irish too - they have never been our friends, not in two world wars and not in our battle against terrorist groups sponsored by their government.

Never thought it would happen but got to agree with Jim. Any country that sent Germany a telegram of condolence upon the death of Hitler, refused to allow Jews to seek asylum in Ireland and wouldn't allow British or American convoys to use Irish ports in WWII should never be described as friends. However, if, as Paul says, we're making 5% return on the loan I'm all for it

[BiggusLaddus]

He reminds me of one of those fellas you see in town centres ranting, wearing a sandwich board stating 'The end is nigh'.

There was one of these stood in the middle of the road as the crowd was heading for twickenham on saturday. Pretty pointless really, he had no chance of getting his voice heard with 70,000 people walking past.

And on Irish neutrality, come on there was no way that they could have allied with the UK so soon after independance and the blood that was spilled to get it. That would have been civil war. But I understand that any UK servicemen that fdound themselves in Ireland were quickly repatriated, while Germans had to wait for the war to end.

[BuckyRover]

Government owned RBS has assets worth £53bn in Eire. That might have something to do with it no? Protecting taxpayer assets? Do we not want RBS to be sold for a profit?

Again, you are deluding yourselves if you think Labour would have done anything different. Darling agreed to future EU bailouts a few days before they left office. Ireland is too valuable to us as a trade partner to fail.

[modes98]

However, if, as Paul says, we're making 5% return on the loan I'm all for it

That is right, if BBC is correct, we borrow at 1.5% and get a return of 5%. Then the Irish get further in debt and we have to bail them out again, vicious cycle! Plus we have loaned money through the normal monetary routes so this £7bn is extra. Thanks to all those losing their jobs for paying for Irish Policians to throw money down the drain.

[ABBEY]

Jammy @#/?s....they get charged 5% and my credit card goes up to 20% in Jan....Mr osborne lend me some money.

[den]

Jim this was my first reaction to the news but I'm not sure you are correct. As I now understand this Britain will probably borrow this money at around 1.5% and lend it to Ireland at 6-7%. We also need to remember Ireland is far more important to us as a trade partner than many other countries. Not supporting the Irish could conceivably trigger another bank crisis - though one does have to ask why our banks have been lending into a clearly unsustainable boom based on building property for a tiny population that don't all need two houses.

I often agree with the thrust of your arguments, if not the style, but on this one I feel you're misleading folk to back up your attacks on the Tories.

On the other hand Paul, this coalition said they couldn't lend money to Sheffield Forgemasters.

[colin]

And Osborne is wrong about the Irish too - they have never been our friends, not in two world wars and not in our battle against terrorist groups sponsored by their government.

Correct me if I'm wrong Jim, but at the time of WW1 the whole of Ireland was basically a colony of the United Kingdom and without its own government. I'm not sure how it had the choice to be a "friend."

By the time of WW2 it was a very new & independant country and, although it did not officially join in the alliance, it remained pretty neutral throughout. That said thousand of Republic of Ireland citizens did join the forces of the alliance to fight the axis

have a look here

And I don't recollect anythig about the Republic Of Ireland's government sponsoring terrorist groups.

Cheers

[jim mk2]

The ugly face of the Nasty Party shows it self again.

Anyone care to explain why they identify with these people ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/25/david-cameron-howard-flight-breeding

[Rovermatt]

Unbelievably this £7bn rescue loan to the Irish is to be funded by taxpayers cash that he has clawed back from the British public through jobs cuts and reductions in public services. Tory ideology gone mad.

And Osborne is wrong about the Irish too - they have never been our friends, not in two world wars and not in our battle against terrorist groups sponsored by their government.

Quite. One wonders what the British did to deserve our friendship (if indeed such a relationship ever existed). Unsurprisingly, you're quite mistaken about Irish involvement in the World Wars. Countless Irishmen died in the trenches of France and Belgium (the 36th Ulster Division and 16th Irish Division fought with particular distinction at the Somme) between 1914 and 1918. Many, many Irishmen served in the British Army in WW2 also.

I'm not terribly comfortable with this loan either but needs must I'm afraid. Britain can rightly expect favours to be returned in the future.

[thenodrog]

The ugly face of the Nasty Party shows it self again.

Anyone care to explain why they identify with these people ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/25/david-cameron-howard-flight-breeding

Huge furore over a throwaway statement that even a blind man on a galloping horse can see has a lot of truth in it. There are many career minded couples who through a mixture of ambition, expectation and choice end up with one or two kids whilst there are also very many who do see a large family as an income stream. Lets not pretend in mock outrage that this is not the case in very many instances.

In your childish and spiteful political agenda Jim is there no room to debate this or any subject? Or should we instead all gather in condemnation in a misguided clamour of frothy pretend outrage? It might not be perceived to be politically correct but so what? I welcome such honest opinion from parliamentarians. Lets not shoot the messenger without discussing the issue first. If we do we'll simply end up with the 'messengers' being replaced by nodding yes men. "At all events, the discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician."

anon

Recently families of people who earn over 40k have lost their child benefits recently and are now obviously worse off as a result (you championed their cause yourself earlier in this thread) so is it fair that people who have more children than the average, and especially those who do not work, should in effect be financially incentivised to do so?

[koi]

Just imagine if Flight had called one of his life-long voters a bigot! The Guardian and their stalwarts would be apoplectic with rage....

[BuckyRover]

Interesting take on the news and it's role in society.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11838544

[jim mk2]

Well I asked why people identify with nasty Tories such as Howard Flight and perhaps predictably only thenodrog responded, so congratulations to him for showing his ugly face on here too. And that's not an insult by the way - just an observation of his opinions and values.

Flight 's obnoxious statement, following on from Lord Young's "never had it so good" gaffe, suggests David Cameron should set up a John Major type of Downing St peers hotline so that his more right wing and aristocratic Tory colleagues can call to find out what they were planning to say after a jolly good lunch might end up sounding when reported on planet earth.

On the other hand Flight might have done the British public a favour because this latest in a stream of foot-in-mouth comments from the Tories probably reflect what the senior Tory hierarchy really think about the rest of us.

Ordinary Lancashire folk who were conned into voting for them might reflect on that too..

[BuckyRover]

Did you not listen to 5luve this morning? The majority thought that he was correct in his assumption.

Poor people are incentivised to have more children. I don't think that can be argued.

[Al]

Did you not listen to 5luve this morning? The majority thought that he was correct in his assumption.

Poor people are incentivised to have more children. I don't think that can be argued.

Absolutely right and dole scroungers breed fast enough without encouraging them.

[thenodrog]

Well I asked why people identify with nasty Tories such as Howard Flight and perhaps predictably only thenodrog responded, so congratulations to him for showing his ugly face on here too. And that's not an insult by the way - just an observation of his opinions and values.

Flight 's obnoxious statement, following on from Lord Young's "never had it so good" gaffe, suggests David Cameron should set up a John Major type of Downing St peers hotline so that his more right wing and aristocratic Tory colleagues can call to find out what they were planning to say after a jolly good lunch might end up sounding when reported on planet earth.

On the other hand Flight might have done the British public a favour because this latest in a stream of foot-in-mouth comments from the Tories probably reflect what the senior Tory hierarchy really think about the rest of us.

Ordinary Lancashire folk who were conned into voting for them might reflect on that too..

Has it not occurred to you that people have become disinterested in your immature and churlish political agenda? It's becoming obvious that you have turned more people away from sharing your ridiculous opinions. I must admit that I too am getting weary of continually having to correct you.

Just as an aside have you any kids/grandchildren Jim? I have and I can assure you that I would have been embarrassed and ashamed of myself if I had had to rely on other peoples money to pay for their upbringing. I'd feel like a parasite and rightly so. Can I take it that you would have no such qualms?

[broadsword]

Has it not occurred to you that people have become disinterested in your immature and churlish political agenda? It's becoming obvious that you have turned more people away from sharing your ridiculous opinions.

Absolutely true.

The comments may have some merit, but they're all variations on a theme repeated ad nauseum. It's a turn-off for sure.

And to be quite honest, to keep this continuous comment going is a bit sad.

[Amo]

Just as an aside have you any kids/grandchildren Jim? I have and I can assure you that I would have been embarrassed and ashamed of myself if I had had to rely on other peoples money to pay for their upbringing. I'd feel like a parasite and rightly so. Can I take it that you would have no such qualms?

Good to see the Tory propaganda is as rampant as ever in this thread. They're quite clearly trying to turn people against those on benefits with their insidious agenda. You do know that not everyone receiving benefits is a 'parasite' or 'workshy' or whatever slur you wish to choose. People have different backgrounds and circumstances for receiving income support. But hey, it's a lot easier to make sweeping generalizations about people in your world.

Of course, with the current government slashing jobs by the tens of thousands and enlarging the dole queues, there's really no excuse for someone being unemployed these days.

[thenodrog]

Good to see the Tory propaganda is as rampant as ever in this thread. They're quite clearly trying to turn people against those on benefits with their insidious agenda. You do know that not everyone receiving benefits is a 'parasite' or 'workshy' or whatever slur you wish to choose. People have different backgrounds and circumstances for receiving income support. But hey, it's a lot easier to make sweeping generalizations about people in your world.

Of course, with the current government slashing jobs by the tens of thousands and enlarging the dole queues, there's really no excuse for someone being unemployed these days.

If I was long term unemployed I would not even consider bringing children into the world. I wouldn't be able to feed and clothe them so why should anybody else be expected to? It's completely irresponsible behaviour. However if somebody with children who has worked for a good number of years is made unemployed then they need help to pay the bills and get back to work and I have no objections to that BUT they really must avoid having any more children until their situation changes.

Having children should be one big responsibility Topman, they should be wanted, loved and cared for. They should NOT be by-products of the welfare state.

You are obviously ingrained in some sort of class struggle but I don't really see how you can disagree with the above and still retain any credibility Topman.

[Paul]

Has it not occurred to you that people have become disinterested in your immature and churlish political agenda? It's becoming obvious that you have turned more people away from sharing your ridiculous opinions. I must admit that I too am getting weary of continually having to correct you.

Has it not occurred to you exactly the same remark can be made of your opinions. Both yourself and jim need to apreciate there is a middle ground. I tend to agree Flight's comments reveal attitudes which many suspect still exist in the Conservative party but this doesn't make all Tories raving right wing loonies. Equally because some Labour supporters lean a long way to the left doesn't mean the whole party agrees with them. The diificulty with the politics, and especially the use of language, employed by those such as yourself and Jim is they are so polarised, and the language used so ridicluous that both views lose any relevance they may have. You make yourself look as daft with your posts as you say Jim does with some of his.

Just as an aside have you any kids/grandchildren Jim? I have and I can assure you that I would have been embarrassed and ashamed of myself if I had had to rely on other peoples money to pay for their upbringing. I'd feel like a parasite and rightly so. Can I take it that you would have no such qualms?

Hopefully your household never took child benefit or any of the related benefits which are almost automatic for all?

[SouthAussieRover]

You're wasting your time Paul.

They are both previous winners of a Grooby for being the most controversial poster (as we are now reminded everytime they post thanks to Glenn ).

It seems they are both desperate to win the 2010/2011 award.