[Archived] Election

[SouthAussieRover]

Message to Gordon:

Switch off your CAPS LOCK.

It's bad enough reading your posts without seeing them in CAPITALS.

[jim mk2]

We live in a competitive globalised economic environment, and that competition is getting fiercer. If our economy is to survive, then we all have a stake in equipping today's youngsters with what they need to take the world on – and that is why higher education has, and should be funded predominantly by the taxpayer. GOOD GRIEF! IT WILL BE FUNDED BY THE TAXPAYER! THATS PRECISELY WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!..... ALBEIT THE TAXPAYER OF THE FUTURE.

So you're saying the country's youth are not worth investing in ? That is a typical Tory attitude of not being able to see past the end of their nose and knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

By placing graduates into debt of up to £40,000, we are making them question the very point of education, AND THAT CAN ONLY BE A GOOD THING! and we limit their ambition in the process. I DOUBT IT WILL AFFECT THE ONES WITH REAL AMBITION.

If you make kids doubt the point of education we might as well give up as a nation. The ones with wealthy parents will of course continue to go to university : the bright kids from poorer backgrounds will not. I expect you are very pleased about that.

[arachnica]

The problem is Jim, that what British companies need to succeed in this new era of global competition isn't just a workforce all educated at university. They need an appropriately skilled workforce with core skills and an ambition to succeed.

The recent OECD survey that charted the decline of relative UK education standards between 2000 and 2009 was one of the most damning indictments of Labour education policy that I have ever seen - and far more critical to our international standards than what percentage of our population went to uni. Since 2000 we have slipped from 8th in the world to 28th in the world for maths, 4th to 16th for science and 7th to 25th for reading. I work with companies every day trying to find them entry (graduate) level students and these are the skills most important to them - not their degree. And sadly too many university educated graduates simply don't have these core skills.

It's sad that an on-the-job education or an apprenticeship is seen as a poor mans university degree, if we really want to survive in the next century as an economy we need to have driven, ambitious students with core numeracy and literacy skills. For most careers you can succeed without a university degree - finance companies are a prime example - some of the most successful employees of big finance firms (investment banks etc) are guys who entered at 16/17 with no skills and have worked their way up through pure determination.

University is a choice and as long as everyone gets a fair crack to go then I don't really mind. I went to uni, had a great time, left with 12k of debt and would do it all again in a heartbeat, even for double the cost. I pay back my student loan bills every month (at a far higher level than for graduates under the new system) and accept that was the cost of a good three years of partying and studying hard. But that doesn't mean that should be the path for everyone.

[den]

What are you talking about? Not supported?

Outside a small group of Tory MP's, who does support the trebling of Uni tuition fees?

The Labour party don't support it.

The Lib Dems clearly don't support it, even though they weren't all prepared to vote against it. For example Simon Hughes was clearly against the proposal. He was asked by his constituency party to vote against the proposal, but decided under pressure from fellow MP's to simply abstain. He had a view, but couldn't find it in himself to oppose the rises. If the Lib Dems had been prepared to vote against it, as they obviously felt, rather than believing that it was more important to support the Tory government, it could be argued that even a majority of the government as a whole, didn't support it. The Tory government didn't put this into their manifesto and didn't consult their constituents about it. Where's the evidence of support from the Tory voters?

The general public don't support it. Different polls have shown that and the last poll I saw on sky news showed 85% of the public thought these rises were unfair.

So, a small group of Conservatives have thrust this upon the students of tomorrow and from what I see, the only support it has, is from this small group of MP's and of course the University managers themselves.

[thenodrog]

If you make kids doubt the point of education we might as well give up as a nation. The ones with wealthy parents will of course continue to go to university : the bright kids from poorer backgrounds will not. I expect you are very pleased about that.

Not necessarily Jim but you have to admit that that policy made us a great nation in the past. Life wasn't so great for the poor but notwithstanding that the Toffs certainly built a great Empire. One that the sun never set on in fact.

[thenodrog]

Outside a small group of Tory MP's, who does support the trebling of Uni tuition fees?

The Labour party don't support it.

The Lib Dems clearly don't support it,

Den and everybody else you knew harsh measures had to be taken 12 months ago. Every political party told you so before the last election. Did you expect it to be a joyride?

The ConLib govt has had to pick up the sticky and smelly end of the stick cos they were democratically elected to do so. So why are you whining now? Your favoured party left the country in a desperate and sorry mess and now somebody else has to clean it up. You should be happy.

[JAL]

Den and everybody else you knew harsh measures had to be taken 12 months ago.

Here some of the big UK banks have threatened to leave the country. So with the university lectureres getting their way through the increase in tuition fees, what will happen to us all now with this threat from the banks?.

[den]

Den and everybody else you knew harsh measures had to be taken 12 months ago. Every political party told you so before the last election. Did you expect it to be a joyride?

The ConLib govt has had to pick up the sticky and smelly end of the stick cos they were democratically elected to do so. So why are you whining now? Your favoured party left the country in a desperate and sorry mess and now somebody else has to clean it up. You should be happy.

Well, I wasn't whining, I was making some points. Since this post of yours has no bearing on the points I did make Gord, I'll take it you agree with my post.

I will make the one point again though from earlier. This has nothing to do with debt reduction, it's to do with the ambitions of the Tory government - and very few agree with it.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Not necessarily Jim but you have to admit that that policy made us a great nation in the past. Life wasn't so great for the poor but notwithstanding that the Toffs certainly built a great Empire. One that the sun never set on in fact.

Take it from me , the sun has set. End of.

[jim mk2]

Your favoured party left the country in a desperate and sorry mess and now somebody else has to clean it up. successfully steered Britain through the worst worldwide economic downturn since the 1930s. You should be happy.

Amended it for you.

The reasons for the public deficit has been explained to you many times before but as you are one of the slower boys at the back of the class I appreciate it takes time to sink in.

[Neil Weaver]

'Gordon Brown and his party' and 'successfully steered' are two phrases that should never be used in the same sentence. Under any circumstance.

[broadsword]

Unless it's in the same sense as: "The Captain of the Titanic successfully steered into the iceberg at full speed."

[Rover Down Under]

'Gordon Brown and his party' and 'successfully steered' are two phrases that should never be used in the same sentence. Under any circumstance.

I can use it in a sentence - Gordon Brown and his party successfully steered the British education system from one of the best in the world to an ALL TIME low where it now lurks below many Eastern European countries.

"This is conclusive proof that Labour’s claim to have “improved” Britain’s schools during its period in office is utter nonsense. " (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100067092/british-schoolchildren-now-ranked-23rd-in-the-world-down-from-12th-in-2000/)

As is typical of the party of envy and hatred, Labour spent 14 years ensuring nobody could get ahead and therefore lowered standards to ensure the village idiot could also finish first. The damage this will cause to the economy will be irreparable as our competitiveness suffers and successive generations are taught by those educated under the most destructive Government the UK has ever seen.

If you vote dumb you get dumbed down.

Can't you just hear that pillock going on and on about his first priority being "Education, education, education." Spending doubled, quality halved - yet another Labour waste of money and proof, yet again, that throwing money at a situation is not the answer.

Thanks to him, his successor and the Labour policies of decimation it is now "Education, educayshun, edyookayshun."

[thenodrog]

Amended it for you.

The reasons for the public deficit has been explained to you many times before but as you are one of the slower boys at the back of the class I appreciate it takes time to sink in.

Seems those at the front of the class are in a majority of one.

Jim if you are clever then I'm bloody glad to be thick.

[jim mk2]

Some typically ignorant responses by a few working class Tories do not constitute an argument. Do your own research and background reading: the evidence is widely and freely available from leading economists and academics that Labour's response to the worldwide economic crisis was correct. Their analyses also debunk popular myths about Labour's spending. Look around ....I know it's highly unlikely for someone with a closed mind but you might actually learn something.

[thenodrog]

Their analyses also debunk popular myths about Labour's spending. Look around ....I know it's highly unlikely for someone with a closed mind but you might actually learn something.

Ditto.

[broadsword]

Some typically ignorant responses by a few working class Tories do not constitute an argument. Do your own research and background reading: the evidence is widely and freely available from leading economists and academics that Labour's response to the worldwide economic crisis was correct.

It was their failure to properly regulate financial services in teh first place that got us into this mess.

[colin]

It was their failure to properly regulate financial services in teh first place that got us into this mess.

Hello Mr Bryan,

I's been a while....

Has any other government (apart from The Glorious Peoples Repubic Of North Korea [all hail the Great Leader]) failed to do the same?

I'll stand with you on that accusation, but is the UK, and the previous Government, in anyway unique in this.

The Financial Services sector continues to pay bonuses and salaries to people who have dragged the global economy into the mire. While they

are being financially supported by various Governments.

Who are compensating for this by cutting public services.

[LeChuck]

On the other hand my son has a shed load of mates who have dropped out of various courses at university. It's life.

I don't understand your point. Perhaps students who drop out without good reason (health etc) could be liable for their fees if that's what concerns you?

as for your next point... Nobody actually forces students to do medicine you know, it's something they strive to achieve to 'get on' in life in order to join the very middle classes that you seem to dislike so much. Medical students need not worry about a trifling 70k debt thats for sure after New Labour widened the class divide by massively rewarding making family Doctors and making them richer than Croesus. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267056/Family-GP-earning-500-000-fortune-thanks-new-style-contracts.html

btw...I will accept that anybody who drops out of Medical school might have financial problems but somebody else might view that as an incentive.

Stop with the emotive 'it's disgusting' stuff. It's not disgusting it's just part of the tough measures that both Brown and Cameron promised before the last election. Labour would be having to do all this if they had won and the Tories would be pretending outrage and you are swallowing it.

Why do you write that like I'm a Labour supporter?

You've demonstrated here plenty of times that there is a massive chip on your shoulder regarding higher education (that post alone has several snippets) so it doesn't surprise me that you condone lumbering students with massive debt.

[LeChuck]

(stupid edit system won't let me change my last post...)

On the other hand my son has a shed load of mates who have dropped out of various courses at university. It's life.

as for your next point... Nobody actually forces students to do medicine you know, it's something they strive to achieve to 'get on' in life in order to join the very middle classes that you seem to dislike so much. Medical students need not worry about a trifling 70k debt thats for sure after New Labour widened the class divide by massively rewarding making family Doctors and making them richer than Croesus. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267056/Family-GP-earning-500-000-fortune-thanks-new-style-contracts.html

btw...I will accept that anybody who drops out of Medical school might have financial problems but somebody else might view that as an incentive.

Stop with the emotive 'it's disgusting' stuff. It's not disgusting it's just part of the tough measures that both Brown and Cameron promised before the last election. Labour would be having to do all this if they had won and the Tories would be pretending outrage and you are swallowing it.

It just occurred to me...why did you take that approach when I started out my post by completely agreeing with something you had said?

Fair enough if you didn't agree with the (unrelated) points I made after, but why that arsey tone?

Edit: Actually I've just seen you do it on another thread too. I'll just leave you to it.

[Yorick]

Good grief! Nigel Evans has come out and declared he's a homosexual! Well that does come as a shock I don't think. Poor bloke must have been really ashamed of his sexuality to wait all these years, but I suppose telling lies and hypocrisy doesn't mean as much to politicians as to proper people.

I live in the Ribble Valley when David Waddington retired and the residents in the main wanted a local chap to take his place and were mighty miffed and perplexed when some single taff with a corner shop was feisted upon them by conservative central office. The voters of the Ribble Valley (9th safest conservative seat) rebelled en masse and elected LibDem teacher Michael Carr. Unfortunately for Carr they reverted to type 6 months later and voted Evans in at the General Election.

Evans projection to one of the plum safe seats in the country despite turning out to be a political lightweight is obviously another case of not what you know but who you know.

All makes me wonder how many more MP's are living a lie to suit their ambition and much more importantly how widespread their network of influence actually extends. The latter carrying rather sinister connotations imo.

[Yorick]

I can use it in a sentence - Gordon Brown and his party successfully steered the British education system from one of the best in the world to an ALL TIME low where it now lurks below many Eastern European countries.

"This is conclusive proof that Labours claim to have improved Britains schools during its period in office is utter nonsense. " (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100067092/british-schoolchildren-now-ranked-23rd-in-the-world-down-from-12th-in-2000/)

As is typical of the party of envy and hatred, Labour spent 14 years ensuring nobody could get ahead and therefore lowered standards to ensure the village idiot could also finish first. The damage this will cause to the economy will be irreparable as our competitiveness suffers and successive generations are taught by those educated under the most destructive Government the UK has ever seen.

If you vote dumb you get dumbed down.

Can't you just hear that pillock going on and on about his first priority being "Education, education, education." Spending doubled, quality halved - yet another Labour waste of money and proof, yet again, that throwing money at a situation is not the answer.

Thanks to him, his successor and the Labour policies of decimation it is now "Education, educayshun, edyookayshun."

Youll like this then rover down under.

http://tinyurl.com/34o9dv7

BSc Hons!

[jim mk2]

More cracks in this blighted coalition government.

Vince Cable, the taxi driver's favourite politician, has followed his gaffe over "declaring war on Rupert Murdoch" by describing the coalition as a "war", threatening to bring down the government as a "nuclear option" and crowing over perceived victories, according to the latest revelations in the Daily Torygraph.

Cable has been allowed to stay on in the cabinet - albeit weakened, reduced further in stature and marginalised. The last shred of Cable's credibility is gone and whether or not he pleaded for a reprieve, he's taken a demotion so that he can stay near the top table. Coupled with his ludicrous decision to get involved in a TV dancing contest, he looks finished as a leading political figure.

Following on from the tuiton fees debacle it is also apparent that the Liberal Democrats as a political party are finished, polling just 8 per cent before the Commons tuition fees vote when so many of their number and all of their leading players broke their pre-election pledges.

But of course the focus on Cable, Clegg, and the Lib Dems has let the real villains of the piece - the Tories - off the hook and that is where Labour should now be turning their attention.

The good news is that the Tories are in trouble. The growing tide of disaffection resulting from their programme of spending cuts and tax rises will spread across the country in 2011 from the poor and "squeezed middle" to the professions. The nasty, hardlineThatcherites who still lurk within the party are also unhappy with their liberal, one-nation leader and his bizarre dream of a "Big Society".

The fissures are opening up in this coalition government as the Oldham by-election will show. I was hoping for a general election before the middle of next year; the way this government is falling apart it could be much sooner.

[Jimmy612]

But we've just had a General Election. Do you not believe in the principles of democracy unless it suits you, your politics and your agenda?

[Paul]

<br />But we've just had a General Election. Do you not believe in the principles of democracy unless it suits you, your politics and your agenda?

Should the government suffer defeat in a parliamentary vote it's quite possible this would lead to a vote of no confidence and a General Election. It's one of the principles of the democracy you uphold and nothing to do with personal views, politics or agendas. Unlike your post.