[Archived] English Defence League

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Same old ###### up gangs of football hooligans looking for any excuse to cause trouble.

[Wilky]

Same old ###### up gangs of football hooligans looking for any excuse to cause trouble.

quality program.

Anyone watch it?

The investigator was a prick but it was expected really

[OhmiBRFC]

I was working, but I'll watch it on iPlayer tomorrow.

[Drummer Boy]

Initial impressions for me?

White working class men who are inherently not racist/fascist, are deeply disaffected and alienated without any voice that they feel represents them kicking out against the trap in which they feel they are caught. I think the chap in Bolton referred to poverty of hope, housing and employment.

At the same time this subculture is poorly educated and perhaps ignorant and therefore does not have a sophisticated voice hence the recourse to football chants and the "day on the ale" aspects

This is a rich vein for those with more offensive views to tap into and there is clear infiltration by BNP types

The presence of Islamic extremists such as the guy interviewed merely serves to reinforce the stereotypes being promoted by those with a more sinister agenda and both extremes seemed as bad as each other to me.

The solution? For mainstream politics to re-engage with these people who feel the need to join the EDL - address the cause not the symptom. Also, for the voice of reason on both sides such as the leader of the Islamic community centre who talked a lot of sense to work to disabuse people of the idea that all Muslims are not in favour of shariah law in the same way that all white working class people are not in favour of forced repatriation

What a deeply depressing programme - have we really lost touch with so many people who are not inherently racist/fascist?

[Harry Balls]

I didn't see the documentary, so I can't really comment on that itself. But my two pence worth on the general situation is that groups such as the EDL and UAF merely add to the problem. What really needs to be encouraged is further interaction between the various ethnic communities of this country so that the inherent prejudices held within them can finally be eroded.

I think what people really need to realize is that Islam, just as any other faith, is not bad. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with the indigenous people of this country wanting to preserve its age old traditions. It's the idiots at each extreme who cause the problems and unless things change these groups are going to grow further and further apart.

However people are entitled to their views. Thats whats great about this country.

Great post. This is the greatest country in the world and part the reason for that is that we have so many people from so many different backgrounds and cultures contributing in their own unique ways whilst living together, in the most, in harmony. We have to do our utmost to ensure that never changes.

[Eddie]

What does not inherently racist mean? I don't believe that the vast majority of active members in any racist groups, be that the national front or their equivalents in other countries or even something as extreme as the KKK, have some condition that predisposes them to be racist. The fact is that racism and hatred is usually the result of other socioeconomic problems, mainly unemployment and poverty. I think what makes this a more complicated issue is that I get the feeling that Wester society is becoming increasingly lazy and also are beginning to believe that all of their views and opinions need to be heard. Everyone needs to have the possibility to have a voice and political parties need to listen to their constituents and do their best to represent them, but some opinions will go unheard and some concerns won't be addressed, that is just a fact of life.

I think it's very sad that a lot of educated and informed people seem to try and justify the actions of the EDL or BNP. The people joining these groups aren't evil, but that doesn't mean that what they are doing is right or should be defended. Of course they will raise some valid concerns and there will be some understandable motives, but you'll find it difficult to name a political party or movement where that isn't the case.

They're just mindless thugs for the most part who don't have the intelligence or motivation to find a proper solution to their problems. It's funny to me that the groups most likely to complain about the "PC Brigade" are also the first to defend violent and racist groups.

[tony gale's mic]

I didn't see the documentary, so I can't really comment on that itself. But my two pence worth on the general situation is that groups such as the EDL and UAF merely add to the problem. What really needs to be encouraged is further interaction between the various ethnic communities of this country so that the inherent prejudices held within them can finally be eroded.

I think what people really need to realize is that Islam, just as any other faith, is not bad. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with the indigenous people of this country wanting to preserve its age old traditions. It's the idiots at each extreme who cause the problems and unless things change these groups are going to grow further and further apart.

Why lump UAF in with the EDL when the whole aim of the UAF is to stop the likes of the BNP and promote a multicultural society where, as you say, interactions between communities can happen and prejudices can be eroded?

Granted some of their members give the rest of them a bad name but one is a Government backed organisation, the other is not.

The vast majority of this countrys age old traditions arent being eroded and the ones that are are only being eroded due to the effects of time. The people that tell you they are happen to be the same numpties who tell you we can't celebrate Christmas anymore.

[Harry Balls]

Why lump UAF in with the EDL when the whole aim of the UAF is to stop the likes of the BNP and promote a multicultural society where, as you say, interactions between communities can happen and prejudices can be eroded?

Granted some of their members give the rest of them a bad name but one is a Government backed organisation, the other is not.

The intentions of the UAF are indeed noble. However, in practice all they're doing is adding more fuel to the fire. And we should be clear that they are not backed by the government per se, just 'supported' by a few government officials.

[Harry Balls]

The intentions of the UAF are indeed noble. However, in practice all they're doing is adding more fuel to the fire. And we should be clear that they are not backed by the government per se, just 'supported' by a few government officials.

To add to that, I actually attended a UAF meeting with the belief that it was a peaceful organisation which was dedicated to removing the barriers between the contrary groups in our society. Much to my surprise, it really wasn't. They want blood just as much as the EDL do, except they phrase things in a more diplomatic way. As someone already mentioned, in practice these groups are little more than opposite sides of the same coin.

If you haven't already been to a UAF meeting, then I would strongly recommend that you do attend one so that you can form you own opinions on what's really going on.

[OhmiBRFC]

quality program.

Anyone watch it?

The investigator was a prick but it was expected really

Why was he? I thought he was OK myself.

That program proved that their is a racist and hooligan element within the EDL. Even one of their leaders said that Muslims will need help when they are 'burning in f**cking hell'

[philipl]

Im mayor anit islamic.. I hate the religion with a passion so the EDL is right up my street

You really are a daft ha'porth aren't you!!!

In my experience of knowing many many muslims, there is no more or less hateful about Islam than there is about Christianity.

About time you cam out of your sheltered little bunker and lived in the real world.

Mukhtar's birthday

[tashor]

I can't believe you posted that Pl........

Whereas I agree with all the points you made about our unreformed mutual pal I cannot believe the link to the video that you posted.....

Not since the black and white minstrel show have I seen a more condescending liberal "white" world view of immigrants ingratiating themselves to their host community.....

[sleepyjack]

Both of you seem to be trying a bit too hard to shoehorn immigration commentary into a birthday song for a bus driver.

[Wilky]

Why was he? I thought he was OK myself.

That program proved that their is a racist and hooligan element within the EDL. Even one of their leaders said that Muslims will need help when they are 'burning in f**cking hell'

its not racism tho is it its anti islamic...

The UAF are funded by the government by both tories and labour...

Well they call it "donations"

whats the difference between the governmemt paying the UAF to fight and the EDL doing their thing? Or sending our troops to blow innoccents up?

[LeChuck]

its not racism tho is it its anti islamic...

Brilliant.

[OhmiBRFC]

its not racism tho is it its anti islamic...

The UAF are funded by the government by both tories and labour...

Well they call it "donations"

whats the difference between the governmemt paying the UAF to fight and the EDL doing their thing? Or sending our troops to blow innoccents up?

Oh dear!

You really are a clueless human being, don't you think?

[Rovermatt]

its not racism tho is it its anti islamic...

It's not English though is it? It's something else entirely...

[tashor]

Both of you seem to be trying a bit too hard to shoehorn immigration commentary into a birthday song for a bus driver.

true.....................

[thenodrog]

The vast majority of this countrys age old traditions arent being eroded and the ones that are are only being eroded due to the effects of time. The people that tell you they are happen to be the same numpties who tell you we can't celebrate Christmas anymore.

Why don't you try that in Saudia Arabia for example tgm?

[thenodrog]

About time you cam out of your sheltered little bunker and lived in the real world.

Mukhtar's birthday

The real world? How long did it take for you to find that condescending syrupy clip?

The bus driver was a cheerful clean shaven, smartly dressed individual, obviously fully willing to integrate and hold down a regular job within the local majority white community where he was appreciated and respected. No mention of his religion that I could see but very well done to him all the same.

........... I wonder if we could swap him for some of ours?

[SAS]

Why was he? I thought he was OK myself.

That program proved that their is a racist and hooligan element within the EDL. Even one of their leaders said that Muslims will need help when they are 'burning in f**cking hell'

I fail to see how a dislike of a religion is racism?

And weirdly its only used to one religion.

No one is racist for hating, jews, christians, hindu`s etc

However EDL does have an hooligan element, and no doubt plenty of our retarded "fans" are members of the organisation.

[Drummer Boy]

What does not inherently racist mean? I don't believe that the vast majority of active members in any racist groups, be that the national front or their equivalents in other countries or even something as extreme as the KKK, have some condition that predisposes them to be racist. The fact is that racism and hatred is usually the result of other socioeconomic problems, mainly unemployment and poverty. I think what makes this a more complicated issue is that I get the feeling that Wester society is becoming increasingly lazy and also are beginning to believe that all of their views and opinions need to be heard. Everyone needs to have the possibility to have a voice and political parties need to listen to their constituents and do their best to represent them, but some opinions will go unheard and some concerns won't be addressed, that is just a fact of life.

I think it's very sad that a lot of educated and informed people seem to try and justify the actions of the EDL or BNP. The people joining these groups aren't evil, but that doesn't mean that what they are doing is right or should be defended. Of course they will raise some valid concerns and there will be some understandable motives, but you'll find it difficult to name a political party or movement where that isn't the case.

They're just mindless thugs for the most part who don't have the intelligence or motivation to find a proper solution to their problems. It's funny to me that the groups most likely to complain about the "PC Brigade" are also the first to defend violent and racist groups.

To me it means not predisposed to discriminating against people on the grounds of their race - although perhaps occasionally differentiating which is another thing altogether and actually quite positive as it celebrates our differences. I agree that other, largely socioeconomic, factors drive racism and that it is a complex issue. You may even be right about it being a fact of life that not all voices are heard; however, in accepting that we also have to accept that if a sufficiently large section, such as the white working class, feels disenfranchised and alienated by mainstream politics and the mainstream society then they are going to turn to other channels to express their frustration and try to make their voice heard.

I too find it odd that a lot of educated and informed people are not prepared try to understand what drives parties such as the EDL/BNP/UAF as it is only by understanding them that we can address the reason for their apparent upsurge within sections of society - in doing that we can attempt to involve them in mainstream politics where I believe their natural political stance lies in this case. This is a long way from justifying the action of any allegedly non-democratic organisation be it the EDL or UAF (as bad as each other in this respect) and it most certainly is not defending violent or racist groups be they EDL or UAF both equally intolerant in this respect.

I watched the programme and, whilst I saw racist elements within the EDL and violence from both EDL and UAF, I did not see mindless thugs and both sides certainly seemed motivated to me. I did see uneducated working class people and some poorly educated people with emotive fixed views both of whom were incapable/unwilling to listen and understand each others point of view preferring to judge on stereotypes presented to them as fact by the opinion formers they believe as they do not feel engaged/involved in mainstream politics. This lack of tolerance and articulacy in argument tends to resort to violence as the primary form of expression.

I don't care for the EDL - their association of the vast majority of Muslims as a threat to the fabric of our society is fundamentally flawed in my view and I don't like violence as a form of expression

I don't care for the UAF - liberal fascists who are so busy telling us all what to think and what we can't debate that they forget to challenge the sanctity of their own views and I don't like violence as a form of expression

What I do care about is that a swathe of our society feels so alienated by the current political system and their lot in life in terms of hopes and aspirations that they feel the need to turn to organisations like the EDL/UAF - and all we can do is slag them off and call them mindless thugs when in fact they are deeply frustrated, have clearly thought as best as their education allows and are trying to express their feelings as best as their articulacy allows. If that expression is unacceptable then perhaps we as a society should try to educate people in a more substantial way than is currently the norm.

As I said, I found the whole programme a rather depressing statement on the state of our society and saw those involved as a symptom not a cause of the underlying problems.

[tashor]

I worry about the comprehension skills of so many people on this board..

Had a think about this one and have come to realise that this is one of the most arrogant intolerant post that has risen like a dyspeptic phoenix from the depths of self delusion of one that considers himself the Ubermensch..............

To be fair I can recognise that trait due to the fact that in mine own immortal youth I too was an unbearable paragon of The(My) Word - if only the insufferable plebian rabble were capable of hanging on to my multi-coloured coattails..............

Kismet has meant that in my dotage the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune have seen fit to pitch against me the brilliance of one only seen by the likes of Icarus to be my unholy nemesis.............

One day you'll grow up laddie and realise what an insufferable prat you were................

[tony gale's mic]

Had a think about this one and have come to realise that this is one of the most arrogant intolerant post that has risen like a dyspeptic phoenix from the depths of self delusion of one that considers himself the Ubermensch..............

To be fair I can recognise that trait due to the fact that in mine own immortal youth I too was an unbearable paragon of The(My) Word - if only the insufferable plebian rabble were capable of hanging on to my multi-coloured coattails..............

Kismet has meant that in my dotage the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune have seen fit to pitch against me the brilliance of one only seen by the likes of Icarus to be my unholy nemesis.............

One day you'll grow up laddie and realise what an insufferable prat you were................

Is being able to use an online thesaurus meant to prove anything?

[brian_gallagher85]

I haven't read many of the posts in here since the opening few exchanges, but here's an idea.

How about the numpties, who think getting tanked up and marching around city centre's causing mayhem makes them big and clever, join the army and go and put their lives on the line in Iraq and Afghanistan if they feel so strongly against Islam?