[Archived] Facism- Alive And Well And Living In Israel

[thenodrog]

Hm, I can't accept a lot of what you have said there.

Firstly, the holocaust is a fall-back excuse for all Zionist and Israeli activity. There is no doubting how horrific what happened was, but it shouldn't be used as a serious defense anymore. What is also odd is that a nation and people who are so quick to use it as a defense seem to overlook the fact that there treatment of the Palestinians is beginning to resemble the ghettos that were seen in Nazi Germany. That isn't to say that they are doing anything near what happened during the holocaust nor am I drawing any serious comparisons between the state of Israel and Nazi Germany, nor is it saying that all of what they are doing is wrong, but you would have thought that a people who are so quick to invoke the spirits and memories of those victims would put in the most effort to prevent anything similar, to any group, from ever happening again.

Secondly, the "playing with fire" comment is worrying. Peaceful protests should be allowed. Could one take a cynical view and argue there may have been some involved who were hoping for this sort of reaction? Perhaps, but that doesn't justify the reaction itself.

1. As we have seen from the Times article from a few days earlier the Israeli's had intelligence that rockets etc were coming in via mediterranean ports.

2. They warned the convoy quiet clearly to turn back or they would be boarded. My obviously distant understanding is that this order was ignored. Would you not suggest that whoever took the choice to ignore this and continue is heavily responsible for the outcome?

3. When the Israeli's did board them they faced violent resistance. We've all seen footage of the Israeli's being attacked with clubs, we've been told there was small arms fire and knives too although I don't know whether this has been confirmed or not.

It's mighty easy to pontificate from a keyboard on what should or should not have been done so try to put yourself in the soldiers position eddie. You are one of a body of soldiers, trained fighting men who have been ordered to slide down a rope in the darkness and seize control of a convoy. You are in fear for your own safety as well as that of your comrades and adrenalin will be high. You are trained that the first priority is to identify the enemy whilst protecting yourself and your comrades. You find yourself and your comrades being physically attacked by enemies of their nation. You have been told by your superiors that there are serious concerns that this convoy is being used by arms smugglers who would by this time be armed,desperate and dangerous and who may be throwing arms over the side at the time. You have been brought up in a country the size of Yorkshire where all the neighbouring countries are your sworn enemies who openly declare that their aim is to destroy your entire nation. You may even have a young family back in Israel too.

Is it any wonder that a shoot first, ask questions later policy was taken and that casualties ensued?

I'd suggest that if Lancashire and it's people were under constant and real threat of mass genocide from it's neighbouring counties as well as the rest of England, Scotland, Wales plus the entire continent of Europe based on religious / race issues that I would want to be protected by an army trained like the Israeli army. Rights and wrongs take a back seat to survival unless you possess a Dodo mentallity.

[SouthAussieRover]

It's difficult to find fault with a sovereign state defending itself against a possible or perceived aggressive/terorist act.

I'm pretty sure the same argument would have been used with regards to Afghanistan and Iraq.

It's best to think of unintended losses as collateral damage,for the greater good etc.

Such is the nature of war.

[thenodrog]

7/7 was the UK, not Israel. Israel definitely needs putting back in its box. I'm not sure what other way the Palestinians could strike back at Israel other than suicide bombing. I don't condone it, but I understand it.

They might try by outing Hamas. Problem is that death would be their swift reward.

I'm sure that if the palestinians were willing to go against hamas that they would receive the hand of freindship from Israel. Whilst they are actively sheltering them they can only expect to get a hard line response.

Hamas and Hezbollah are simply different names for the likes of Syria and Iran. They are conducting a war of attrition with Israel under other names simply in order to distance themselves from direct association and international pressure.

[tony gale's mic]

They might try by outing Hamas. Problem is that death would be their swift reward.

I'm sure that if the palestinians were willing to go against hamas that they would receive the hand of freindship from Israel. Whilst they are actively sheltering them they can only expect to get a hard line response.

Hamas and Hezbollah are simply different names for the likes of Syria and Iran. They are conducting a war of attrition with Israel under other names simply in order to distance themselves from direct association and international pressure.

The hand of friendship of Israel?

That's nice, considering they were forced out of their land and made to live in a tiny strip of land basically on top of each other whilst the Israelis enjoy prosperity and the support of most of the world's major powers. Not only that but the Israelis have unlawfully extended their borders since the original 1948 agreement.

Why should they merely accept the hand of friendship of Israel? This all happened BEFORE the election of Hamas. I am certainly not pro-Hamas but this problem has been raging for over 60 years and only recently have Hamas been elected by the Palestinians, and while I would not attribute suicide bombings to merely desperation (although they are a factor), I would attribute the election of Hamas largely to desperation.

I'm not saying that kicking out all the Israelis/Jews is the answer as they now have communities, families, and just because something utterly inhumane was done against the Palestinians in 1948 it doesn't mean we should do the same to the Israelis. I don't even claim to know the right answer.

What SHOULD happen however is fair negotiations between the two sides to work out an agreement whereby the Palestinians get more land, where world superpowers like the USA don't stand behind Israel despite their atrocities (which kill 70 Palestinians to every 1 Israeli) and stand against the Palestinians purely because of theirs.

[Exiled_Rover]

Rubbish Bryan. There were no desperate people on 7/7/05 just braindead brainwashed ones!

As for Israel being put back in it's box! Have you forgotten Hitler's Germany did that to 6m of them and I don't think they are about to let it happen again without a fight.

Fact is the daft buggers on those boats knew they were playing with fire and were repeatedly warned to turn back. They wouldn't do so so they copped for it. It's not good by any means but surely they must know that silly random posturing will never influence the determination of Israel to defend itself?

Not only that but the Times on Friday ... before the incident carried a report about Syrian and Iranian involvement in arming Hezbollah to attack Israel. Here....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7138763.ece

3rd paragraph down "The military hardware is either of Syrian origin or sent from Iran by sea, via Mediterranean ports, or by air, via Damascus airport. The arms are stored at the Hezbollah depot and then trucked into Lebanon."

Small wonder that they came down so hard is it? If Israel shows an ounce of weakness they will be torn to pieces by their enemies.

Exactly, they're surrounded on all sides by countries that hate them. I don't condone all of their actions, but they have every right to defend themselves.

Oh and doesn't Egypt have a border with Palestine? One that's been closed for years? Nobody in the region wants anything to do with the Palestinians, they're just a useful political tool to turn people against the Israeli's.

As for the shootings themselves, the activists were asking for it - quite simply, the Israeli army doesn't mess around.

Firstly they were expressly told not to run the blockade. The 'hippies' attacked the Israeli commandos, when they tried to board for inspection, with bats, metal poles and knives. The Israeli commandos were armed with paintball guns and handguns as a fall back. They only retaliated with force once those on the boats started to turn their own handguns against them. Perfectly justifiable in my eyes.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I wondered how long the appologists for Zionist Fascism would take to crawl from under their stones. Longer than I thought this time , maybe even you are shamed by Israels latest outrage.No doubt 70 years ago you would be telling us that that nice Mr. Hitler had every right to re-occupy The Sudatenland, and if he wanted a bit of Czechoslovakia that would be ok, after all some of the Czechs spoke German. I'm just pleased that there are people both morally and physically brave enough to tackle the armed might of of a rogue state with nothing more than arm bars and sticks, the regions bullies got a taste of their own medicine this time.

I've been around long enough to recognise Facism when I see it and I see it in everything Israel does vis-a-vis Palestine.

[American]

They were still in International waters, so what Israel did was illegal (of course, that's never stopped them before - all about law and order until it comes to what they do). Israel was asking for something like this to happen by putting the blockade in place. How can the so-called world's greatest army not be able to handle a group with sticks and knives? Haven't they heard of tear gas?

As for the US' role in facilitating all of this - the reason Hamas is in control is because we insisted they be allowed to run in the elections, to make sure the voters got the government they wanted. Of course, when that government wasn't the one we wanted, we did everything to undermine it.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

The hand of friendship of Israel?

That's nice, considering they were forced out of their land and made to live in a tiny strip of land basically on top of each other whilst the Israelis enjoy prosperity and the support of most of the world's major powers. Not only that but the Israelis have unlawfully extended their borders since the original 1948 agreement.

And Here lies the problem; the land was never historically Palestinian or Israeli. Neither side can produce a rigorous argument. The Jews first had the land, then the Arabs , then in 1917 Britain agreed that Jews should have homeland in 1917.

In 1949 there was less than 950,000 Palestinians living in the whole of the Levant and Palestine, there are now over 6 million, with several million living in Syria and Egypt.

One of the fundamental issues that is overlooked by both sides in the huge exponential increase in the Palestinian population, with populations set to increase to 20 million in the next 15 years

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I did of course mean the Rhineland not Sudetenland.

[Exiled_Rover]

They were still in International waters, so what Israel did was illegal (of course, that's never stopped them before - all about law and order until it comes to what they do). Israel was asking for something like this to happen by putting the blockade in place. How can the so-called world's greatest army not be able to handle a group with sticks and knives? Haven't they heard of tear gas?

As for the US' role in facilitating all of this - the reason Hamas is in control is because we insisted they be allowed to run in the elections, to make sure the voters got the government they wanted. Of course, when that government wasn't the one we wanted, we did everything to undermine it.

I'm pretty sure it's legal if the course of the craft is known. The US do it all the time in the Gulf of Mexico.

[tashor]

I've been around long enough to recognise Facism when I see it and I see it in everything Israel does vis-a-vis Palestine.

You cannot spell it............

You do not understand it............

Like that stupid lttle boy tony you are an arrogant deluded gobshyte that sums up everything about modern undereducated Britain...........

Retarded no marks the lot of you.............

[neekoy]

And Here lies the problem; the land was never historically Palestinian or Israeli. Neither side can produce a rigorous argument. The Jews first had the land, then the Arabs , then in 1917 Britain agreed that Jews should have homeland in 1917.

In 1949 there was less than 950,000 Palestinians living in the whole of the Levant and Palestine, there are now over 6 million, with several million living in Syria and Egypt.

One of the fundamental issues that is overlooked by both sides in the huge exponential increase in the Palestinian population, with populations set to increase to 20 million in the next 15 years

Agree with everything accept the Jews were nomadic so they didn't belong to the land either. They just believe GOD gave it to them.

Also Jews and Arabs lived together in this territory as next door neighbours for centuries

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

You cannot spell it............

You do not understand it............

Like that stupid lttle boy tony you are an arrogant deluded gobshyte that sums up everything about modern undereducated Britain...........

Retarded no marks the lot of you.............

Thanks for your well argued, thoughtful and considered contribution to the debate.

[tony gale's mic]

You cannot spell it............

You do not understand it............

Like that stupid lttle boy tony you are an arrogant deluded gobshyte that sums up everything about modern undereducated Britain...........

Retarded no marks the lot of you.............

Undereducated? I've got degrees coming out of my ears.

I'd say the inability to construct an argument is much more of a symptom of being "undereducated".

Now come back with some proper arguments on this topic or f**k off.

[tashor]

Undereducated? I've got degrees coming out of my ears.

I'd say the inability to construct an argument is much more of a symptom of being "undereducated".

Now come back with some proper arguments on this topic or f**k off.

How Dare I Be So Beautiful?

Wandering in the chaos the battle has left,

We climb up the mountain of human flesh,

To a plateau of green grass, and green trees full of life.

A young figure sits still by a pool,

He's been stamped "Human Bacon" by some butchery tool.

(He is you)

Social Security took care of this lad.

We watch in reverence, as Narcissus is turned to a flower.

A flower?

[thenodrog]

Undereducated? I've got degrees coming out of my ears.

I'd say the inability to construct an argument is much more of a symptom of being "undereducated".

Now come back with some proper arguments on this topic or f**k off.

Somewhat contradictory from one so educated.

btw I thought bragging about academic qualifications was recently considered inappropriate on here?

[tony gale's mic]

Somewhat contradictory from one so educated.

btw I thought bragging about academic qualifications was recently considered inappropriate on here?

I think if you look throughout the thread at my other posts you'll find it isn't contradictory at all.

And it's not called bragging when you're replying in response to someone calling you "undereducated"...

[Claytons Left Boot]

How Dare I Be So Beautiful?

Wandering in the chaos the battle has left,

We climb up the mountain of human flesh,

To a plateau of green grass, and green trees full of life.

A young figure sits still by a pool,

He's been stamped "Human Bacon" by some butchery tool.

(He is you)

Social Security took care of this lad.

We watch in reverence, as Narcissus is turned to a flower.

A flower?

There's Winston Churchill dressed in drag,

he used to be a British flag, plastic bag, what a drag.

The frog was a prince, the prince was a brick, the brick was an egg,

the egg was a bird............

[SouthAussieRover]

There's Winston Churchill dressed in drag,

he used to be a British flag, plastic bag, what a drag.

The frog was a prince, the prince was a brick, the brick was an egg,

the egg was a bird............

and Tashor is a brick acting like a prick....

[broadsword]

I think if you look throughout the thread at my other posts you'll find it isn't contradictory at all.

And it's not called bragging when you're replying in response to someone calling you "undereducated"...

I think it's called having your chain yanked.

[Claytons Left Boot]

and Tashor is a brick acting like a prick....

(1) Whoooooosh.

(2) Not sure Peter Gabriel and Co could have got that line in.

[SouthAussieRover]

(1) Whoooooosh.

(2) Not sure Peter Gabriel and Co could have got that line in.

No whoosh intended.

I just adapted Willow Farm.

[tashor]

Would stop and chat but can't..............

Tea's ready ( i'm not posh...............................)

[Steve Moss]

I think Israel was more than justified in boarding the craft. It was given the opportunity to turn about and decline to do so. It reaped the consequence of that decision.

Personally, I think the Isrealis took too many chances with their men's lives. When a vessel tries to run a blockade, and fails to turn about when ordered, it should have simply been sunk. For those who decry the violence of the IDF, they could have been harsher and justifiably so, IMO.

[thenodrog]

I think if you look throughout the thread at my other posts you'll find it isn't contradictory at all.

The structure and layout of most of your posting is fine but the content is usually questionable and frequently stupid.

btw I once got a ban for a similar outburst so I'm not expecting you to be able to reply for some time.