[Archived] Facism- Alive And Well And Living In Israel

[philipl]

This comment in the New York Times sums up my feelings exactly.

The current Israeli Government is a menace to the West.

[tony gale's mic]

I think Israel was more than justified in boarding the craft. It was given the opportunity to turn about and decline to do so. It reaped the consequence of that decision.

Personally, I think the Isrealis took too many chances with their men's lives. When a vessel tries to run a blockade, and fails to turn about when ordered, it should have simply been sunk. For those who decry the violence of the IDF, they could have been harsher and justifiably so, IMO.

It was in international waters.

What Israel did was no better than an act of piracy.

[Claytons Left Boot]

No whoosh intended.

I just adapted Willow Farm.

Good, we're on the same wavelength. How about :-

Get 'em out by Friday!

You don't get paid till the last one's well on his way.

Get 'em out by Friday!

It's important that we keep to schedule, there must be no delay.

Not sure if it's referring to the Israelis or the Palestinians.

[Steve Moss]

It was in international waters.

What Israel did was no better than an act of piracy.

That is a very naive, and in my opinion mistaken, view. Just because a vessel is on the high seas does not mean that it is immune from being visited and searched. Especially when that ship is on course for a blockaded port and has publically announced it's intent to breach the blockade.

The question is whether the blockade itself is lawful. As to that point, I believe it is as:

1. Israel is a soveriegn state.

2. Hamas is an organization dedicated to eradicating Israel.

3. Hamas controls Gaza.

4. Israel in a state of armed conflict with Hamas as Hamas resumed suicide bombings in 2005, in addition to rocket and mortar attacks against Israel.

5. Blockades are both a traditional and lawful mechanism of a soveriegn state to bring to bear on those with whom it is engaged in armed conflict.

6. Israel initiated the blockade in 2007, 2 years after the resumption of Hamas' attacks against Israel.

Added to that point, Egypt is also blockading Gaza so one could hardly consider Israel's actions to bring pressure against Hamas via a blockade to be unilateral.

[American]

Actually, naval blockades usually aren't legal. Especially when they have been known to attack fishing boats which are definitely not allowed to be attacked or searched.

[colin]

Perhaps what a number of people are overlooking is that the flotilla which was attacked was bringing humanitarian aid to the people of Palastine who needed it because of the actions of Israel.

The flotilla contained medicines; food; water purification systems; & building materials (window frames for example.)

It wasn't carrying arms or weapons or guns.

It was staffed by a multi-national crew and it had no stated aim other than to deliver aid to Palastine.

So Israel attacked it and killed people.

Israel said that it would have allowed the flotilla to unload in Ashdod in Israel, no problem. Humph! Does anyone beleive that the aid would have got through when Israel has been blockading & bombing Palastine for years.

Israel has been bullying & oppressing Palestinians for decades. The recent action is just another facet of it's (dare I say it) Nazi-like oppression. If nothing else it is reminicent of apartide South Africa.

My sincere hope is that this event will turn the tide of world opinion against Israel and it's brutal repression of the Palastinians.

BTW, if you disagree with what I've just written please feel free to explain why.The fact that Syria might hate Israel is not germaine . I'd appreciate you not rambling on with poetry or suggesting that I have no understanding, or whatever you default to when discussing issues on the internet.

[adopted scouser]

It wasn't carrying arms or weapons or guns.

Just a polite question Colin; this sentence forms the crux of your post, how do you know this for sure ?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

This comment in the New York Times sums up my feelings exactly.

The current Israeli Government is a menace to the West.

Well worth a read.

[tashor]

Perhaps what a number of people are overlooking is that the flotilla which was attacked was bringing humanitarian aid to the people of Palastine who needed it because of the actions of Israel.

Yes - but that is due to the self - flagellating policies of Hamas who revel in the suffering of their own people for their own political ends.........

The flotilla contained medicines; food; water purification systems; & building materials (window frames for example.)

True.............

It wasn't carrying arms or weapons or guns.

If we are playing at being honest please tell me you are not stupid enough to believe this ridiculous propaganda..........

It was staffed by a multi-national crew and it had no stated aim other than to deliver aid to Palastine.

True - but note the term "stated aim" - this was a clever publicity seeking operation planned over a 2 year period which drew the Israelis into its trap - shelob anybody? - it has succeded brilliantly and the Israelis were caught hook, line and sinker - this was a major tactical disaster for them and the "peace" campaigners have won a huge victory in getting exactly what they set out to succeed......

So Israel attacked it and killed people.

As above - they were duped by an astute calculating foe......................

Israel said that it would have allowed the flotilla to unload in Ashdod in Israel, no problem. Humph! Does anyone beleive that the aid would have got through when Israel has been blockading & bombing Palastine for years.

Aid yes/ arms no - but surely all is fair in war.............and if you doubt this is a war look up again what jihad means......

Israel has been bullying & oppressing Palestinians for decades. The recent action is just another facet of it's (dare I say it) Nazi-like oppression. If nothing else it is reminicent of apartide South Africa.

I cannot comment on this because I cannot for the life of me understand the connection - 2+2 = 9.372??

My sincere hope is that this event will turn the tide of world opinion against Israel and it's brutal repression of the Palastinians.

Now this is where we might really fall out............the only logical conclusion to what you say is to back Israel into the same backs against the wall attitude that the Palestinians feel............this is warmongering pure and simple...........the only possible outcome a bloody slaughter and eventual eradication of jews from the middle-east...........but at huge price to everyone else in the region............

Until Israel is given an unconditional acceptance by it's neighbours it will never attain the confidence to act in a reasonable way...........while this doesn't happen it inevitably will lash out in desperate self defence.............

Maybe you cannot accept this but you would have to be an idiot to not understand it............

BTW, if you disagree with what I've just written please feel free to explain why.The fact that Syria might hate Israel is not germaine . I'd appreciate you not rambling on with poetry or suggesting that I have no understanding, or whatever you default to when discussing issues on the internet.

Israel is black and blue

Oh Israel is black and blue

Its black and blue.....Its black and blue.........

Oh Israel is in the shyiite..........

Now Colin - honesty please - do you want to see the evil jewish empire eradicated from the face of the earth once and for all ( I am resisting the urge to invoke the socialist party that you mentioned earlier - do you really want them to finish the job?? ) - or do you really want a two state solution based on mutual recognition - and if you do how on earth do you think this could happen??

If you do want to see Israel obliterated from the face of the Earth ( and this time I use the phrase in a non-ironic way ) then please say so - at least your statements would be consistent...........

If not then please understand that your intemperance contributes to a peaceful outcome not one jot..........

I can't say I'm hopeful but there again until Islam undergoes a reformation to bring it into the modern world I fear for us all...............................

[adopted scouser]

Kelvin having a stormer on Question time, Diane Abbott shut your fat cake hole

[Steve Moss]

Actually, naval blockades usually aren't legal. Especially when they have been known to attack fishing boats which are definitely not allowed to be attacked or searched.

Usually, I'd agree with you. In this case, I disagree. Israel has every right to defend itself. Hamas, which is based in and controls Gaza, is the source of those attacks. Ergo, Israel's blockade of Gaza is perfectly legal in this circumstance.

I underline legal as I think people overemphasize the impact of international law. At the international level whether an act is legal or illegal is a matter of great debate. One nation can point to an international custom in support of its actions while another can point to a treaty to which the other country may or may not be a signatory. In my cynical opinion, whether something is legal or illegal largely depends on whether one has the means and the guts to enforce one's version of the law.

IMO, the UN should really take control of Gaza. Let it deal with Hamas. I doubt it has the means or the will, however.

And for those who appreciate dark humor

[colin]

Just a polite question Colin; this sentence forms the crux of your post, how do you know this for sure ?

AS, I don't know it for sure, but the flotilla ships were probably checked out out of their ports of departure. I beleive (I may be wrong) that every departing ship has to declare a list of cargo. I think it's a general shipping rule that what you put on a ship must be accounted for at the port of loading & then unloading.

All to do with tariffs & trade & embargos, drugs, weapons, enriched uranium, etc. Each country wants to know what it importing & exporting. Just as an example the biggest trade between the UK & The Netherlands is diamonds by De Beers. Small by quantity, but huge by value. Just indicative of the monitoring that goes on.

I hope this makes sense. I certainly wouldn't like to be embroiled in some of the more recent posts on here.

[tony gale's mic]

Usually, I'd agree with you. In this case, I disagree. Israel has every right to defend itself. Hamas, which is based in and controls Gaza, is the source of those attacks. Ergo, Israel's blockade of Gaza is perfectly legal in this circumstance.

I underline legal as I think people overemphasize the impact of international law. At the international level whether an act is legal or illegal is a matter of great debate. One nation can point to an international custom in support of its actions while another can point to a treaty to which the other country may or may not be a signatory. In my cynical opinion, whether something is legal or illegal largely depends on whether one has the means and the guts to enforce one's version of the law.

IMO, the UN should really take control of Gaza. Let it deal with Hamas. I doubt it has the means or the will, however.

And for those who appreciate dark humor

What about the illegal occupation of Palestinian settlements by Israel?

I do not for one minute support Hamas' methods, any method which kills innocent people is abhorrent. And yes, I do agree that their methods are somewhat self defeating as people who do not have the time or the desire to see past some barbaric suicide bombings will see just that and fail to see the cause behind it or the deaths inflicted by Israel (as I have said, over 70 times what Hamas suicide bombings cause).

However, as bad as these methods are Hamas has offered to end them if Israel withdraws to the pre 1967 borders.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64T2AM20100530

[thenodrog]

However, as bad as these methods are Hamas has offered to end them if Israel withdraws to the pre 1967 borders.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64T2AM20100530

In that case the years of indiscriminate rocket launchings and suicide bombings against Israel will have proved successful. Even the 67 war will not have been disastrous.

Don't hold your breath that the Israeli's are daft enough to fall for that ruse tgm. They have good reason never to trust their arab neighbours.

http://www.answers.com/topic/arab-israel-war-2

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historylearningsite.co.uk%2Fyom_kippur_war_of_1973.htm&rct=j&q=israeli+war+yom+kippur&ei=GcsITKvJNpeJOLLb2NYP&usg=AFQjCNFxgLRL-IJVJGbR2ucnSrdp4PqY2g

[RibbleValleyRover]

I'll largely reserve judgement until a report and its findings are made public. I will say though that both sides are as bad as each other. Israel has known to be heavy handed, installing a more hard line government seems to have led to an increase in the number of incidents. At the same time Israel is surrounded by countries that want to blow them off the face of the earth. I don't see how Israel can do any deal to make further progress towards a two nation solution when Hamas has its in their charter that Jews must be slaughtered.

Until Israel moves to a more centrist and moderate government and Hamas are removed from power then I can't see any progress being made.

[Steve Moss]

This comment in the New York Times sums up my feelings exactly.

The current Israeli Government is a menace to the West.

This article sums up my view of the current Israeli v. Hamas conflict: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

I'll largely reserve judgement until a report and its findings are made public. I will say though that both sides are as bad as each other. Israel has known to be heavy handed, installing a more hard line government seems to have led to an increase in the number of incidents. At the same time Israel is surrounded by countries that want to blow them off the face of the earth. I don't see how Israel can do any deal to make further progress towards a two nation solution when Hamas has its in their charter that Jews must be slaughtered.

Until Israel moves to a more centrist and moderate government and Hamas are removed from power then I can't see any progress being made.

This is unfortunately true. A complicating issue (one of many) is which has to happen first. Based on past history, I believe the Israelis would be insane to weaken their position until Hamas is removed from power and a more rational government takes charge.

[American]

Yes, because it is up to us and Israel to tell people what LEGITIMATELY ELECTED governments they can or can't have....

[Steve Moss]

Yes, because it is up to us and Israel to tell people what LEGITIMATELY ELECTED governments they can or can't have....

That's not our job. On the other hand, how we (and Israel) elect to deal with those governments, such as Hamas (which has shot 4,000 missiles into Israel, not to mention the suicide bombings), is entirely up to us.

If a people want to elect genocidal maniacs, fine. But don't expect others to turn a blind eye to the insanity.

[American]

Yes, because we've always been about what's right, not about who sides with us and gives more money to our election campaigns...

And Israel's government, led by a terrorist, has committed atrocities just as bad, and in many cases, worse.

[philipl]

This article sums up my view of the current Israeli v. Hamas conflict: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

This is unfortunately true. A complicating issue (one of many) is which has to happen first. Based on past history, I believe the Israelis would be insane to weaken their position until Hamas is removed from power and a more rational government takes charge.

Krauthammer is hardly a serious commentator about anything and completely loses the plot on that one.

Increasingly, Israel is living in a bubble removed from the rest of the world. Their ultra-aggressive PR activity which includes flaming any blogger or comment posted on the net which shows the slightest intelligence in making moderate criticism of the loonies in Jerusalem just increases their isolation and enhances their narrative of this conflict being loony v loony. Meanwhilst America is hostage to AICPAC etc and unable to protect her own national interests and those of her brave serving troups in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There is no more logic in being totally beholden to Israel than there would be in American foreign policy being dictated by Denmark- a country with a similar population.

Both Likud and Hamas were elected freely and fairly in general elections.

It is worth noting that what have been proven to be lasting peaces were hammered out in Ulster and Bosnia when the most extreme vicious and obnoxious people were in power- simply there was nobody more extreme or partisan the people who preferred killing could turn to when the extremes of the communities hammered out a peace deal. The logic therefore should be that a lasting durable peace settlement is achievable if Likud and Hamas can be brought to the negotiating table.

Sadly Netanyahou is proving inferior to Paisley, Adams, Karadic and the rest.

[thecomebackid]

The terms of this debate reminds me of the story about the president of Harvard who justified his university's policy of proscribing Jewish students because, "Jews cheat". When challenged that, "Protestants also cheat", his response was "stop changing the subject; we're talking about Jews!"

So Israel's more authoritarian than the House of Saud, Great Britain's main regional ally? More oppressive than Sudan, who's President, Turkey recently hosted, despite being charged with genocide by the International Criminal Court? Israel appropriates land and controls those lands more ruthlessly and brutally than Russia? And let's not even go there with those other stalwart friends of Great Britain like Libya, China, and Afghanistan.

I know – I'm "changing the subject; we're talking about Jews" here.

Well, there were several female Arab Israeli Knesset members, like Haneen Zoabi, aboard the Mavi Marmara, who, on their return, wasted no time in castigating the Likud led government on local and international television.

Israel has a free, and raucous, press. There is no such equivalent in the region and beyond.

Its human rights record is one of the best in the world, and the best in the entire Middle East. The Supreme Court in Jerusalem is independent, and purposively upholds the rights of women, gays, racial and religious minorities. Israeli Arabs serve as Supreme Court Justices.

Despite this, the Jewish state is singled out for the routine kind of demonization, delegitimization and double-standards that no other nation is remotely subjected to.

More disturbingly, the use of terms like "Jewish Fascists", "Zionist Fascists" and "Nazis", suggests a far more sinister expropriation of the narrative of the Holocaust, from those who were its actual victims, than the likes of David Irving or Nick Griffin would ever have dared dream of, even in their more depraved attempts at Holocaust denial. So the Jews are berated with their greatest national tragedy in over 5000 years of recorded history.

To put things in to perspective, in the Warsaw Ghetto alone, the Nazis murdered around half a million Jews within the space of several months, through starvation, transportion, or on the spot liquidation. Those making such analogies really ought to take a good look at themselves.

Probably a more accurate title to this debate would be: 'The Oldest Hatred; Alive and Well and Living in Great Britain'.

Those singling out Israel, once again, are either ignoramuses or immoral bigots.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Both Likud and Hamas were elected freely and fairly in general elections.

Freely elected but surely you could not do a deal with a government that has comments like this its charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)."

[thenodrog]

Those singling out Israel, once again, are either ignoramuses or immoral bigots.

You forgot sympathisers of, and apologists for the islamic world.

[thenodrog]

Freely elected but surely you could not do a deal with a government that has comments like this its charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)."

The strangest contradiction here is that most of these these silly boat people seem to be limp wristed, modern day, happy clappy hippies. How exactly do the frequently repeated intentions of the muslim world toward the citizens of Israel and jews the world over sit with them? It's mighty perplexing.

On the one hand we have a dynamic liberal, free thinking, educated and democratic society whose prime motive is simply to defend themselves and their small scrap of homeland, whilst on the other we have entire nations of bigoted and blinkered opponents of democracy who collectively possess huge tracts of virtually uninhabited land across the the entire globe but who through ignorance and years of religious brainwashing practice intolerance toward not only non believers and followers of other religions but also entire sections of their own communities and even worse advocate mass genocide towards the followers of Judaism. History proves that they are the real agressors in all this.

Can it simply be down to decades of drug abuse? If so it's the best argument for not legalising drugs in existence.

[cletus]

Thecomebackkid....."Its human rights record is one of the best in the world, and the best in the entire Middle East. The Supreme Court in Jerusalem is independent, and purposively upholds the rights of women, gays, racial and religious minorities. Israeli Arabs serve as Supreme Court Justices.

I totally agree. The international media has an agenda against the state of Israel. Does Israel have public stonings, beheadings, amputations, beatings, hangings & floggings etc on a daily basis? I think not.

Israel & it`s government isn`t perfect by a long way, but i could name plenty of muslim countries with far far more concerning human rights records.....many of whom are largely ignored by the media.