[Archived] Facism- Alive And Well And Living In Israel

[thenodrog]

My 'irony' comment was meant to be light-hearted

I gather you`re a trainee doctor or something? I think you need to prescribe yourself a chill pill & stop resorting to personal insults. Your opinions & mine are obviously at odds & no amount of tinterweb warrior debating will change our perspective on things. Maybe you should consult one of your textbooks & find out where your funny bone is.

Time to roll your neck in a bit

I think he must have been poorly and missed the lectures on bedside manner cletus.

[cletus]

I think he must have been poorly and missed the lectures on bedside manner cletus.

I`m sure his medical superiors would be a tad concerned with him posting such comments as 'plotting the downfall of my Jewish patients'. .....afterall, we don`t want another Dr Shipman on our hands do we??

[tony gale's mic]

I`m sure his medical superiors would be a tad concerned with him posting such comments as 'plotting the downfall of my Jewish patients'. .....afterall, we don`t want another Dr Shipman on our hands do we??

It was a sarcastic comment to someone who was accusing me of being anti-Semitic.

Thank christ my patients aren't as simple as some of the people on here or we'd have to artificially ventilate the lot of them.

[cletus]

It was a sarcastic comment to someone who was accusing me of being anti-Semitic.

Thank christ my patients aren't as simple as some of the people on here or we'd have to artificially ventilate the lot of them.

You seem to have a very low opinion of other people who aren`t basically yourself. Not what i`d call the perfect attitude to have for a promising young doctor

[thenodrog]

It was a sarcastic comment to someone who was accusing me of being anti-Semitic.

You understand sarcasm but appear to struggle with irony TGM. Oh well it's a start I suppose.

[colin]

aaaarrgghh ! There you go again Col. Where is the evidence that the ship did not also contain weapons/rockets/explosives ?

AS, Asking for evidence that someone did not do something is leading to an Orwellian nightmare.

There is something horribly wrong with that.

[neekoy]

AS, Asking for evidence that someone did not do something is leading to an Orwellian nightmare.

There is something horribly wrong with that.

So where do you stand on pre-emptive action?

A known enemy of yours who has threatended to kill you runs at you with what looks in the shadows to be a knife, you have a gun, shoot him or wait for a possible stabbing?

[philipl]

Given the Israelis have taken all cameras and phones from everyone on board and no doubt filmed everything themselves plus have the most aggressive PR machine in the world, I have to say that the scarcity of video material in the public domain of what happened that night points to it being pretty nasty and not something that would put Israel in a good light.

[tony gale's mic]

So where do you stand on pre-emptive action?

A known enemy of yours who has threatended to kill you runs at you with what looks in the shadows to be a knife, you have a gun, shoot him or wait for a possible stabbing?

This was a flotilla of multinationals carrying aid from Turkey who had been one of Israel's allies uptil this point. Your analogy doesn't really work.

[neekoy]

This was a flotilla of multinationals carrying aid from Turkey who had been one of Israel's allies uptil this point. Your analogy doesn't really work.

Yes you are right, it was possibly a little quick off the cuff.

The fact still remains that non Israeli sources tie the IHH to terrorist support. Even the Turkish government believe they have ties and have in the past acted on intelligence against them.

[colin]

So where do you stand on pre-emptive action?

A known enemy of yours who has threatended to kill you runs at you with what looks in the shadows to be a knife, you have a gun, shoot him or wait for a possible stabbing?

It wasn't a "known enemy" though was it? No knife, no shadows, no gun, no stabbing. Just a bunch of people of various nationalities trying to get some peaceful, non-violence related aid through to Gaza.

[Drummer Boy]

Followed this thread for a while now - don't know the answer to the wider Middle East problem but suspect there isn't one until people stop using words like "obliterate" and recognise that each other are on this planet to stay so they may as well learn to live with each other. Until then, it's more of the same as we saw in the North of Ireland.

As for the incident, I think it is naive, in the context of the Middle East situation, to not accept that a minority of these flotillas are not carrying non-aid related cargo on occasion; similarly, I do not think the Israelis meant to board a vessel and kill people unnecessarily but that their soldiers were "spooked". I believe they have National Service in Israel and wonder if the boarding party were not the experienced campaigners that comprises much of the Israeli forces but recruits doing their national service under the eye of an inexperienced leader? If that is the case, then the Israelis need to review their practices if they are to board vessels to prevent the transport of rockets to be fired on their citizens whilst the organisers of such flotillas need to be more careful about who and what they allow on board their vessels.

It seems to me it was a situation that got out of hand due to a combination of the passionate feelings of the flotilla crew and the lack of preparedness of the Israeli forces for the situation that evolved and that neither party anticipated or desired the outcome.

It's a tragedy and I feel for those involved as further collateral damage of very closed minds and intolerance all round - the worst part is I can only see it continuing for the foreseeable future and those driving opinion on both sides should hang their heads in shame.

[neekoy]

It wasn't a "known enemy" though was it? No knife, no shadows, no gun, no stabbing. Just a bunch of people of various nationalities trying to get some peaceful, non-violence related aid through to Gaza.

I did recant and say the analogy was a little quick and simple. Absolutely they were a known enemy, the IHH is on teh banned list for supporting terrorism.

The IDF were first provoked (go back to Auschwitz) and then physically attacked. Whether or not the response was OTT, I can't comment as I don't live in that kind of environment however I could certainly see it as justified under thse high pressure circumstances.

[Eddie]

See that's the problem: it clearly isn't justified. It's a bit like the Iraq war in many respects, had there been WMD's we would have heard about them, had there been weapons on that ship we would have heard about them. Israel regularly acts on poor intelligence and attacks non-military targets, unfortunately for them it became very high profile very quickly in this instance and involved foreigners. That isn't to say that you can't relate to why they are on edge and quick to act, but when they act incorrectly they can't be defended.

[neekoy]

See that's the problem: it clearly isn't justified. It's a bit like the Iraq war in many respects, had there been WMD's we would have heard about them, had there been weapons on that ship we would have heard about them. Israel regularly acts on poor intelligence and attacks non-military targets, unfortunately for them it became very high profile very quickly in this instance and involved foreigners. That isn't to say that you can't relate to why they are on edge and quick to act, but when they act incorrectly they can't be defended.

So is it fair to label them facists, zionist pigs or imperialists? They made a split second error in judgement.

[Eddie]

I'm not labeling the individual members of the IDF as anything, but I also don't feel that the decision-makers both in the IDF and the Israeli government are simply guilty of making the wrong call on a split-second decision. If this had been a one-off and a mistake that was totally out of character with general Israeli policy then that might be an excuse, but the Israeli's have shown themselves to be governed by a shoot-first-ask-questions-later for decades. There are countless examples of attacks on schools and hospitals which have then been shown to have no military significance or occupants. When it comes to attacking civilians and civilian targets there has to be considerable evidence to support the belief that there is a military presence and a serious threat in the area. Now this attitude is in part a result of the climate in which they find themselves, but their own attitude contributes to the problems. This aggressive approach also has to be viewed along with their ever-expanding presence in territories that they really shouldn't be in and their stranglehold on the Palestinian population.

Bringing up the holocaust is pretty pointless, that wasn't an attack on the Israeli state and it really shouldn't be a factor in Israeli politics anymore.

[broadsword]

They made a split second error in judgement.

Did they ######.

[thenodrog]

Bringing up the holocaust is pretty pointless, that wasn't an attack on the Israeli state and it really shouldn't be a factor in Israeli politics anymore.

Good grief eddie. Never mind centuries of persecution previously the holacaust is 20th century recent history, and a 21st century liklehood too if the stated aims of the arab nations are to be believed. Small wonder the state of Israel is so intransigent and acts on a once bitten twice shy basis.

Correct me if I am wrong but I bet you are one of the first to express horror and outrage whenever you read or hear of holocaust denial, yet here you are virtually saying it doesn't matter anymore.

[broadsword]

Talk about taking things out of context.

[tony gale's mic]

Talk about taking things out of context.

He has good form in that area..

[SouthAussieRover]

Meanwhile a "dirty" war carries on in Afghanistan.

Some of you, with your handwringing stances and comments, make me feel sick.

[tony gale's mic]

There's a lot of views expressed along the lines of "it's six of one and half a dozen of the other". Although that doesn't even half take into account that it's the Israelis who have been illegally occupying land for far longer than Hamas have even been in existence, Israel's disproportionate use of force etc, it is at least a viewpoint which is true to a fair degree and a little more close to the truth than what the likes of theno, smoss and cletus are spouting on here.

However, it doesn't answer the question that if it is both sides to blame, why is one side so well supported in a financial, military and diplomatic sense by the USA and why is the other side repeatedly condemned and sanctioned? Personally if the West played a much more bilateral role in the process then quite a lot of my objections to what's going on currently in the Middle East would be allayed, however with the major world powers so firmly behind Israel it really smacks of injustice.

[thenodrog]

There's a lot of views expressed along the lines of "it's six of one and half a dozen of the other". Although that doesn't even half take into account that it's the Israelis who have been illegally occupying land for far longer than Hamas have even been in existence, Israel's disproportionate use of force etc, it is at least a viewpoint which is true to a fair degree and a little more close to the truth than what the likes of theno, smoss and cletus are spouting on here.

However, it doesn't answer the question that if it is both sides to blame, why is one side so well supported in a financial, military and diplomatic sense by the USA and why is the other side repeatedly condemned and sanctioned? Personally if the West played a much more bilateral role in the process then quite a lot of my objections to what's going on currently in the Middle East would be allayed, however with the major world powers so firmly behind Israel it really smacks of injustice.

Like the Arab nations are short of money? However I don't think it's that at all. The Israeli's just seem to be able to produce a better fighting machine. You speak of injustice well how big of an injustice were the numbers given below and especially when deployed in a suprise attack on a Jewish Holy day?

The Yom Kippur War

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/yom_kippur_war_of_1973.htm

"The combined forces of Egypt and Syria totalled the same number of men as NATO had in Western Europe. On the Golan Heights alone, 150 Israeli tanks faced 1,400 Syria tanks and in the Suez region just 500 Israeli soldiers faced 80,000 Egyptian soldiers.

Other Arab nations aided the Egyptians and Syrians. Iraq transferred a squadron of Hunter jet fighter planes to Egypt a few months before the war began. Iraqi Russian-built MIG fighters were used against the Israelis in the Golan Heights along with 18,000 Iraqi soldiers. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait effectively financed the war from the Arabs side. Saudi troops approximately 3,000 men - also fought in the war. Libya provided Egypt with French-built Mirage fighters and in the years 1971 to 1973, Libya bankrolled Egypts military modernisation to the tune of $1 billion which was used to purchase modern Russian weapons. Other Arabic nations that helped the Egyptians and Syrians included Tunisia, Sudan and Morocco. Jordan also sent two armoured brigades and three artillery units to support the Syrians, but their participation in the war was not done with vast enthusiasm probably because King Hussein of Jordan had not been kept informed of what Egypt and Syria planned."

So which bit have I taken out of context there?

[adopted scouser]

Can someone alter the title of this thread ? I've nothing against faces

[tony gale's mic]

Like the Arab nations are short of money? However I don't think it's that at all. The Israeli's just seem to be able to produce a better fighting machine. You speak of injustice well how big of an injustice were the numbers given below and especially when deployed in a suprise attack on a Jewish Holy day?

The Yom Kippur War

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/yom_kippur_war_of_1973.htm

"The combined forces of Egypt and Syria totalled the same number of men as NATO had in Western Europe. On the Golan Heights alone, 150 Israeli tanks faced 1,400 Syria tanks and in the Suez region just 500 Israeli soldiers faced 80,000 Egyptian soldiers.

Other Arab nations aided the Egyptians and Syrians. Iraq transferred a squadron of Hunter jet fighter planes to Egypt a few months before the war began. Iraqi Russian-built MIG fighters were used against the Israelis in the Golan Heights along with 18,000 Iraqi soldiers. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait effectively financed the war from the Arabs side. Saudi troops – approximately 3,000 men - also fought in the war. Libya provided Egypt with French-built Mirage fighters and in the years 1971 to 1973, Libya bankrolled Egypt’s military modernisation to the tune of $1 billion which was used to purchase modern Russian weapons. Other Arabic nations that helped the Egyptians and Syrians included Tunisia, Sudan and Morocco. Jordan also sent two armoured brigades and three artillery units to support the Syrians, but their participation in the war was not done with vast enthusiasm –probably because King Hussein of Jordan had not been kept informed of what Egypt and Syria planned."

So which bit have I taken out of context there?

Not all the Arab world is flush with cash, and you cannot possibly argue that Israel's allies (which currently include NATO, the EU and India) are remotely comparable to Palestine's.

And re the Yom Kippur war, firstly what happened almost 40 years ago is not particularly relevant to what is going on now. Egypt for one have long signed a peace treaty with Israel and have been complicit in the blockading of the Gaza Strip. You also take out of context the reason for the Yom Kippur war; it was Israel who were occupying Egyptian territory after the 1967 war so it was hardly some unprovoked attack. They had agreed to return this land in exchange for peace agreements from Egypt but this mysteriously never happened and so Egypt was trying to get its territory back.

So once again, you still manage to take things out of context and present things as isolated attacks when in fact it was very much continuous with an earlier transgression by the Israelis. That the Israelis are one of the finest military forces in the world is without doubt, however this has absolutely no relation to the justification of their actions.