[Archived] Facism- Alive And Well And Living In Israel

[thenodrog]

Not all the Arab world is flush with cash, and you cannot possibly argue that Israel's allies (which currently include NATO, the EU and India) are remotely comparable to Palestine's.

And re the Yom Kippur war, firstly what happened almost 40 years ago is not particularly relevant to what is going on now. Egypt for one have long signed a peace treaty with Israel and have been complicit in the blockading of the Gaza Strip. You also take out of context the reason for the Yom Kippur war; it was Israel who were occupying Egyptian territory after the 1967 war so it was hardly some unprovoked attack. They had agreed to return this land in exchange for peace agreements from Egypt but this mysteriously never happened and so Egypt was trying to get its territory back.

So once again, you still manage to take things out of context and present things as isolated attacks when in fact it was very much continuous with an earlier transgression by the Israelis. That the Israelis are one of the finest military forces in the world is without doubt, however this has absolutely no relation to the justification of their actions.

Egypt and the entire arab nations. They all got a bloodied nose if my memory serves me correctly.

Arabs no money? If they hadn't any its cos they ladled it all to the Soviets, chinks and ourselves to buy fighter planes and assorted weaponry.

btw Did NATO, India and the Commmon Market countries (no eu then and prob a common market of only 6 or so) actually send troops to fight alongside the Israeli's against the combined arab nations Tony? If they did I cannot recall it.

[tony gale's mic]

Egypt and the entire arab nations. They all got a bloodied nose if my memory serves me correctly.

Arabs no money? If they hadn't any its cos they ladled it all to the Soviets, chinks and ourselves to buy fighter planes and assorted weaponry.

btw Did NATO, India and the Commmon Market countries (no eu then and prob a common market of only 6 or so) actually send troops to fight alongside the Israeli's against the combined arab nations Tony? If they did I cannot recall it.

I didn't say the Arabs have no money, but it's nothing like the financial support the Israelis get.

No but Israel was illegally occupying Egyptian land. If the Arab nations get together and decide to invade Israel from all sides you can get your bottom dollar they'll all get involved.

Israel has been the largest recipient of direct economic and military assistance from the US since WWII, and is only now being overtaken by Iraq since the Americans are so heavily embroiled themselves in that country.

[broadsword]

However, it doesn't answer the question that if it is both sides to blame, why is one side so well supported in a financial, military and diplomatic sense by the USA and why is the other side repeatedly condemned and sanctioned? Personally if the West played a much more bilateral role in the process then quite a lot of my objections to what's going on currently in the Middle East would be allayed, however with the major world powers so firmly behind Israel it really smacks of injustice.

Continuing instability in the Middle East is a boon to the arms industry.

[tony gale's mic]

Continuing instability in the Middle East is a boon to the arms industry.

Oh, I know there's several reasons why the Western powers are behind Israel, but none of them are just or fair.

[Drummer Boy]

Not all the Arab world is flush with cash, and you cannot possibly argue that Israel's allies (which currently include NATO, the EU and India) are remotely comparable to Palestine's.

And re the Yom Kippur war, firstly what happened almost 40 years ago is not particularly relevant to what is going on now. Egypt for one have long signed a peace treaty with Israel and have been complicit in the blockading of the Gaza Strip. You also take out of context the reason for the Yom Kippur war; it was Israel who were occupying Egyptian territory after the 1967 war so it was hardly some unprovoked attack. They had agreed to return this land in exchange for peace agreements from Egypt but this mysteriously never happened and so Egypt was trying to get its territory back.

So once again, you still manage to take things out of context and present things as isolated attacks when in fact it was very much continuous with an earlier transgression by the Israelis. That the Israelis are one of the finest military forces in the world is without doubt, however this has absolutely no relation to the justification of their actions.

Until people stop bringing up what happened 40 years ago, 200 years ago, 2000 years ago - whatever the timescales, there will be no discussion about what happens in the future. Neither side has an exactly pure history but both have the prospect of a peaceful future if they stop dwelling on the past and bickering about who funded what, who invaded where and who has suffered the greatest injustices and suffering over how many years/decades/centuries - let's call it the politics of hate. With the recent experience on our own doorstep, you would have thought we could offer some insight in this respect.

Both TGM and his opponents may be correct in what they say; however, until this is accepted as neither being the point nor pertinent to moving forward, there will be no change to the constant roll-call of death that is tedious in its predictability in a part of the world that deserves better as a cradle of civilisation.

[tony gale's mic]

Until people stop bringing up what happened 40 years ago, 200 years ago, 2000 years ago - whatever the timescales, there will be no discussion about what happens in the future. Neither side has an exactly pure history but both have the prospect of a peaceful future if they stop dwelling on the past and bickering about who funded what, who invaded where and who has suffered the greatest injustices and suffering over how many years/decades/centuries - let's call it the politics of hate. With the recent experience on our own doorstep, you would have thought we could offer some insight in this respect.

I agree with the sentiment but two things need to happen:

1. Israel NEEDS to pull out of the West Bank where it is illegally occupying. We're not just talking about 40 years ago here, we're also talking about the here and now. They are STILL illegally occupying it despite the UN calling it illegal and despite Hamas claiming at least that they'll declare a ceasefire if they pull out.

2. The western powers need to offer a much more bilateral support than what is currently going on. Obama is showing one or two signs of it by going where other Presidents didn't by condemning the blockade, but still the scales need to be tipped a lot more if they're going to be a fair and balanced voice in the process.

[philipl]

Taking the emotive out of Israel I think this is a superb summation.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I agree with the sentiment but two things need to happen:

1. Israel NEEDS to pull out of the West Bank where it is illegally occupying. We're not just talking about 40 years ago here, we're also talking about the here and now. They are STILL illegally occupying it despite the UN calling it illegal and despite Hamas claiming at least that they'll declare a ceasefire if they pull out.

2. The western powers need to offer a much more bilateral support than what is currently going on. Obama is showing one or two signs of it by going where other Presidents didn't by condemning the blockade, but still the scales need to be tipped a lot more if they're going to be a fair and balanced voice in the process.

Obama has done diddly squat different to his predecessor re Middle East- the great “leftist hope" has found out what the real driver is behind foreign policy and it ain’t ideals.

3. Syria and Iran et el need to stop supplying Hamas with Rockets, Guns and cemtex.

4. Hamas, Hezbollah need to acknowledge that the Jews have the right to exist.

5. Arab and Western “charity groups” should stop in the donation of monies that help Islamic terrorist groups re-arm themselves.

[tony gale's mic]

Obama has done diddly squat different to his predecessor re Middle East- the great “leftist hope" has found out what the real driver is behind foreign policy and it ain’t ideals.

3. Syria and Iran et el need to stop supplying Hamas with Rockets, Guns and cemtex.

4. Hamas, Hezbollah need to acknowledge that the Jews have the right to exist.

5. Arab and Western “charity groups” should stop in the donation of monies that help Islamic terrorist groups re-arm themselves.

The actions of Lebanese, Iranian and Syrian bodies should have little to no bearing on how the West treats Palestine. If Hamas decides to stop firing rockets at Israel then Syria and Iran will have no reason to supply them, so it's this which should be worked on, rendering point number 3 irrelevant. Hamas have stated that they will declare a ceasefire if Israel withdraws from territories it is illegally occupying and reverts back to pre 1967 borders.

Whilst previously they wanted Israel to cease to exist as a state and wanted a complete reversal of the 1948 agreements, publicly at least they are now supporting a two state solution.

[Steve Moss]

So where do you stand on pre-emptive action?

A known enemy of yours who has threatended to kill you runs at you with what looks in the shadows to be a knife, you have a gun, shoot him or wait for a possible stabbing?

Empty the magazine into the attacker and reload.

Good grief eddie. Never mind centuries of persecution previously the holacaust is 20th century recent history, and a 21st century liklehood too if the stated aims of the arab nations are to be believed. Small wonder the state of Israel is so intransigent and acts on a once bitten twice shy basis.

Correct me if I am wrong but I bet you are one of the first to express horror and outrage whenever you read or hear of holocaust denial, yet here you are virtually saying it doesn't matter anymore.

Common sense.

And re the Yom Kippur war, firstly what happened almost 40 years ago is not particularly relevant to what is going on now. Egypt for one have long signed a peace treaty with Israel and have been complicit in the blockading of the Gaza Strip.

1. The soldiers in the Yom Kippur war are now the leaders of their respective states. So what happened 40 years ago is extremely relevant.

2. Are the Egyptians fascist zionists? After all, they are assisting Israel in the blockade of Gaza.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

The actions of Lebanese, Iranian and Syrian bodies should have little to no bearing on how the West treats Palestine. If Hamas decides to stop firing rockets at Israel then Syria and Iran will have no reason to supply them, so it's this which should be worked on, rendering point number 3 irrelevant. Hamas have stated that they will declare a ceasefire if Israel withdraws from territories it is illegally occupying.

The above is at best naïve. To suggest that the influence of Syria and Iran is based purely on a supply/demand of rockets is completely incorrect. Both countries are hell-bent on fighting a proxy war through Hamas & Hezbollah against Israel.

If Hamas ( a big If) were to reject ballistics etc from Syria, Iran - they would simply find another terrorist group to supply and probably arrange a Coup d'état.

As for Hamas, you place far more trust in their word than most.

[thenodrog]

The above is at best naïve. To suggest that the influence of Syria and Iran is based purely on a supply/demand of rockets is completely incorrect. Both countries are hell-bent on fighting a proxy war through Hamas & Hezbollah against Israel.

If Hamas ( a big If) were to reject ballistics etc from Syria, Iran - they would simply find another terrorist group to supply and probably arrange a Coup d'état.

As for Hamas, you place far more trust in their word than most.

Almost childlike naivety imo bazza. No responsible government could ever leave it's country and it's citizens wide open to attack simply on the word of a terrorist organisation that is the sworn enemy of that country and those citizens to boot.

[tony gale's mic]

The above is at best naïve. To suggest that the influence of Syria and Iran is based purely on a supply/demand of rockets is completely incorrect. Both countries are hell-bent on fighting a proxy war through Hamas & Hezbollah against Israel.

If Hamas ( a big If) were to reject ballistics etc from Syria, Iran - they would simply find another terrorist group to supply and probably arrange a Coup d'état.

As for Hamas, you place far more trust in their word than most.

It's not about placing trust in their word, Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank and it should pull out regardless of anything else. It's not like asking Israel to pull back to their 1967 borders is asking them for any kind of concession; it's asking them to comply with international law.

Whilst the sovereign state of Israel keeps breaking international law by continually occupying the West Bank it will always allow terrorist groups to claim a mandate for their actions. If Israel were to withdraw from the area and Hamas were to keep firing rockets across, Israel would gain more sympathisers.

[thenodrog]

It's not about placing trust in their word, Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank and it should pull out regardless of anything else. It's not like asking Israel to pull back to their 1967 borders is asking them for any kind of concession; it's asking them to comply with international law.

Whilst the sovereign state of Israel keeps breaking international law by continually occupying the West Bank it will always allow terrorist groups to claim a mandate for their actions. If Israel were to withdraw from the area and Hamas were to keep firing rockets across, Israel would gain more sympathisers.

And more body bags too.

Can't rem who said this but it's correct....

"The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. "

btw read this....

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sixday_backgd.php

[tony gale's mic]

Almost childlike naivety imo bazza. No responsible government could ever leave it's country and it's citizens wide open to attack simply on the word of a terrorist organisation that is the sworn enemy of that country and those citizens to boot.

They should be withdrawing from the West Bank whether it's on the word of a terrorist organisation or not.

[cletus]

They should be withdrawing from the West Bank whether it's on the word of a terrorist organisation or not.

.....& those nice blokes at Hamas will not claim "A GREAT VICTORY" over the zionist pigs? They will milk it for all it`s worth.

The only way i can possibly see Israel pulling out of these occupied zones without suffering the humiliation of Hamas claiming victory, would be the United States government ordering Israel to 'pull out or all US economic & military aid will stop'. Israel simply won`t let terrorist organisations dictate to them.

[tony gale's mic]

.....& those nice blokes at Hamas will not claim "A GREAT VICTORY" over the zionist pigs? They will milk it for all it`s worth.

The only way i can possibly see Israel pulling out of these occupied zones without suffering the humiliation of Hamas claiming victory, would be the United States government ordering Israel to 'pull out or all US economic & military aid will stop'. Israel simply won`t let terrorist organisations dictate to them.

For the millionth time they are breaking international law and so should return it just as any other country illegally occupying territory should. The UN have backed this up too, it's hardly just Hamas who have said this. Hamas have changed their demands from a one state solution to a two state one only quite recently so it's hardly like they'd be achieving what theyd set out to do all this time.

An entirely different situation would be if Hamas were still pressing for their demands of a one state solution (which I'm sure in an ideal world for them they would prefer). If they then demanded Israel give over land that previously legally belonged to Israel to compensate for their previous generations being displaced, this could be seen as giving in to the terrorists.

[thenodrog]

For the millionth time they are breaking international law and so should return it just as any other country illegally occupying territory should. The UN have backed this up too, it's hardly just Hamas who have said this. Hamas have changed their demands from a one state solution to a two state one only quite recently so it's hardly like they'd be achieving what theyd set out to do all this time.

An entirely different situation would be if Hamas were still pressing for their demands of a one state solution (which I'm sure in an ideal world for them they would prefer). If they then demanded Israel give over land that previously legally belonged to Israel to compensate for their previous generations being displaced, this could be seen as giving in to the terrorists.

TGM would you prefer it if the state of Israel ceased to exist?

[broadsword]

How do you take what he's said there and produce the conclusion that he'd like Israel eliminated? I'm curious as to the logical steps you've taken there. It seems as if you're leading him up a irrelevant cul-de-sac in order to distract him from making what seems to me very valid points.

[thenodrog]

How do you take what he's said there and produce the conclusion that he'd like Israel eliminated? I'm curious as to the logical steps you've taken there. It seems as if you're leading him up a irrelevant cul-de-sac in order to distract him from making what seems to me very valid points.

I merely asked a question. I've not come to any conclusion. How did you come to the conclusion that I had Bryan?

[broadsword]

By quoting him you linked what he had said to a suspicion that he wanted Israel eradicated, I think that much is crystal clear. How was your question to him pertinent in any way to what he had said.

I might as well quote what you've just said and ask you if you like the taste of rhubharb. Not got anything to do with what you've said at all, I'm just asking a question.

[thenodrog]

Thats your interpretation. Mine is that I asked him a question. You asked me one three posts ago and I responded. I suggest his answer or even his silence should he choose will provide a backdrop to his stance.

Unless you can answer for him why don't you simply wait to read his answer Bryan?

[Bazzanotsogreat]

They should be withdrawing from the West Bank whether it's on the word of a terrorist organisation or not.

Agreed. With Jerusalem remaining an international city

However, do you concede that Israel should not be attacked from North and South by terrorist groups supplied by sovereign states?

[Steve Moss]

. . . they are breaking international law . . .

Two questions:

1. What exactly is international law?

2. What exact international law has Israel violated in occupying Gaza?

Agreed. With Jerusalem remaining an international city

However, do you concede that Israel should not be attacked from North and South by terrorist groups supplied by sovereign states?

Which under my interpretation of "international law" would justify Israel attacking those states, in addition to taking control over those areas from which they are being attacked.

[philipl]

United Nations resolutions are being broken by Israel.