Group C Discussion - Algeria, England, Slovenia, Usa

[broadsword]

Frank Lampard apparently has 77 caps - Jesus wept.

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamPlyrsBios/PlayersL/BioLampardFJ.html

[Eddie]

Totti? Rosicky? Riquelme? Don't make me laugh. Not to mention 4 from France? The German? 5 from Spain? I actually can't agree with you on a single one there.

[Amo]

Don't give a pish about England, but:

HART

JOHNSON - TERRY - DAWSON - COLE

CARRICK - BARRY

LENNON - LAMPARD - ROONEY

CROUCH

----------------------------------

* Hart deserves a shot ahead of James & Green.

* Dawson should go ahead of the decrepit Carragher.

* Carrick & Barry to protect the back four and keep the ball in midfield.

* Lampard playing off the front man as he does effectively for Chelsea.

* Rooney drifting in from the left in a free role, with Cashley Cole overlapping.

[tcj_jones]

For a while I had forgotten that football is about the number of step-overs you do and your pass completion rate.

As for the belief that England would be nothing without Rooney, it's simply nonsense. There are plenty of very good players in that squad, a couple of world class ones, and the team would still be a very good one without him.

There's been a massive overreaction to the England draw, only one team has looked particularly impressive in their first game and that has been Germany, a side that most had written off before the tournament began. Friday could easily see England score several.

Pass completion rate is extremely important at the top level! How else are you meant to retain possession and control a game? It's why Xavi is probably the best CM in world football. As for flair, skill, and creativity, that is why the likes of Argentina, Brazil, Spain, and Holland can open defences up and create chances out of nothing.

Name me those players in the England squad, other than Rooney, who have put in world class performances over the past two years... Gerrard and Lampard are fantastic at English club level, but have never performed on an international stage. I'd say the only world class players in our team are Rooney, A. Cole, Terry and Ferdinand. However, Ferdinand is injured and Terry is out of form.

We have no out and out goal scorer in the team when Rooney isn't there and nobody who can make a chance out of nothing. Our wide players, J. Cole excepted, often have no end product; our keeping options are weak; and our CBs are injured / out of form.

This isn't a reaction to the USA draw, a game we deserved to win, but observations that have been made over the past two - four years.

[neekoy]

Totti? Rosicky? Riquelme? Don't make me laugh. Not to mention 4 from France? The German? 5 from Spain? I actually can't agree with you on a single one there.

I didn't think you would, but at least you agree there are still 18 players plus whatever 4 of the 5 from Spain ahead of him.

Iniesta, Xavi, Silva, Cesc, Xabi Alonso, yes I will take those 5, Ozil for Germany, Gourcuff, Toulalan and Diarra I would also take, however I am sure you will claim weaker leagues, overall they are better and more skilled players and they aren't afforded the protection of having an Essien, Makelele, Ballack or Mikel doing the dirty work.

[Eddie]

Name me those players in the England squad, other than Rooney, who have put in world class performances over the past two years... Gerrard and Lampard are fantastic at English club level, but have never performed on an international stage. I'd say the only world class players in our team are Rooney, A. Cole, Terry and Ferdinand. However, Ferdinand is injured and Terry is out of form.

We have no out and out goal scorer in the team when Rooney isn't there and nobody who can make a chance out of nothing. Our wide players, J. Cole excepted, often have no end product; our keeping options are weak; and our CBs are injured / out of form.

Ashley Cole has. As much as I hate him his goal record would say Crouch. On top of that you can't limit judging whether or not a player is world class simply by looking at their performances at international level, afterall there have been critics of Messi in Argentina.

I didn't think you would, but at least you agree there are still 18 players plus whatever 4 of the 5 from Spain ahead of him.

Iniesta, Xavi, Silva, Cesc, Xabi Alonso, yes I will take those 5, Ozil for Germany, Gourcuff, Toulalan and Diarra I would also take, however I am sure you will claim weaker leagues, overall they are better and more skilled players and they aren't afforded the protection of having an Essien, Makelele, Ballack or Mikel doing the dirty work.

I think you haven't seen a lot of those players play to be honest. To suggest that Gourcuff and Toulalan are better is pretty ridiculous. Ozil and Silva are completely different types of midfielders. Fabregas is probably one of the most overrated midfielders in the world as well.

We will have to agree to disagree then.

[neekoy]

I have seen enough of them to see what kind of players they are that Lampard isn't, happy to disagree, I think I have proven pretty clearly that even reducing the argumentative players Gourcuff etc we still have a nice round figure of about 20 or so midfielders that are better.

[Eddie]

For you, but not for me.

[LeChuck]

Don't give a pish about England, but:

HART

JOHNSON - TERRY - DAWSON - COLE

CARRICK - BARRY

LENNON - LAMPARD - ROONEY

CROUCH

----------------------------------

* Hart deserves a shot ahead of James & Green.

* Dawson should go ahead of the decrepit Carragher.

* Carrick & Barry to protect the back four and keep the ball in midfield.

* Lampard playing off the front man as he does effectively for Chelsea.

* Rooney drifting in from the left in a free role, with Cashley Cole overlapping.

The team should be built around Rooney, he can't be restricted to the left wing. Man Utd play him centrally and build the team round him, just like they did with Ronaldo - that's what we need to do with him.

I agree with the shape of the team though, though I'd ditch Crouch for Joe Cole (swapping places with Rooney), and Gerrard for Carrick.

[Amo]

Klinsmann says that Beckenbauer should watch more PL games if he thinks England play "kick and rush". Find the problem with this sentence.

[Majiball]

There's barely any English players in the PL????

And on a different note, Lampard is a very good player. He's never done it for England because he's always asked to play a different role than at club level, he's rarely been played in his usual attacking role. He scores 20 goals a season from midfield every year for the last 5 (is it more) under 4 different managers & systems what does he have to do to be rated???

England have never gotten the best out of him just like they haven't Gerrard, Rooney and all the rest.

But that doesn't make him a bad player.

PS Lampard is an attacking midfielder comparing him to Xavi, Iniesta et al is pointless they play different roles. But I do wonder why Mourinho has tried to take him to Inter and would love to take him to Madrid as well??

He must be pants!!

[Rovermatt]

Fabregas is probably one of the most overrated midfielders in the world as well.

Seriously?

[Miker]

Two points:

1. Fabregas is not overrated - I have seen him countless times and as a passing midfielder, you can't do much better than him.

2. Lampard is also quality, as Majiball pointed out, he has performed at a consistently high level for years at Chelsea and he's definitely up there with the best of them. Comparing players is too subjective, but there should be no argument that Lampard is world class.

EDIT: Although Fabregas IS my favourite player... so a little bias is involved

[neekoy]

Comparing players is too subjective, but there should be no argument that Lampard is world class.

Careful you don't get any splinters in your bum

But comparing players is too subjective, but there should be no argument that Lampard is not world class.

[Silencio]

delete

[waggy]

table top mountian is clear as a bell today,nowt on pendle hill though

[thenodrog]

Pass completion rate is extremely important at the top level! How else are you meant to retain possession and control a game? It's why Xavi is probably the best CM in world football. As for flair, skill, and creativity, that is why the likes of Argentina, Brazil, Spain, and Holland can open defences up and create chances out of nothing.

Name me those players in the England squad, other than Rooney, who have put in world class performances over the past two years... Gerrard and Lampard are fantastic at English club level, but have never performed on an international stage. I'd say the only world class players in our team are Rooney, A. Cole, Terry and Ferdinand. However, Ferdinand is injured and Terry is out of form.

We have no out and out goal scorer in the team when Rooney isn't there and nobody who can make a chance out of nothing. Our wide players, J. Cole excepted, often have no end product; our keeping options are weak; and our CBs are injured / out of form.

This isn't a reaction to the USA draw, a game we deserved to win, but observations that have been made over the past two - four years.

Correct tcj. Comments made on here and out and about simply tell me that too many people simply re-gurgitate the big club crap that they read in the press. Read it often enough and the likes of Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Beckham and Gerrard become world class players in many peoples minds. Those people right across the country then repeat it ad infinitum as if it were written in the Gospels.

It's always wisest to assume that the press know as much about football and footballers as a cow knows about fishing.

[thenodrog]

On top of that you can't limit judging whether or not a player is world class simply by looking at their performances at international level, afterall there have been critics of Messi in Argentina.

Good grief! Of course you can eddie. The major international tournaments are precisely where comparisons can be made. Messi might simply turn out to be another John Barnes / Cantona / Ginola. Great at club level but coming up short of really true greatness. 'World class' is a term devalued by being used far too frequently.

How many times have you heard about the 'step up' from national to international level from players who play the game? If players cannot cut the mustard at international level they cannot be considered truly world class and thats that. To do so is to devalue the likes of the true greats like Pele, Cruyff, Zidane, Maradona etc.

[thenodrog]

2.Lampard is also quality, as Majiball pointed out, he has performed at a consistently high level for years at Chelsea and he's definitely up there with the best of them. Comparing players is too subjective, but there should be no argument that Lampard is world class.

Absolute bloody tosh! World class by definition means that a player has to be considered on of the best X1 players on the planet. Lampard isn't even one of the best X1 in the Prem.

What Lampard is is a one trick pony. Only capable of playing in one position when a team is set up to accomodate his 'one trick'. When a team isn't set up for him he is decidedly average. Having said all that I have to concede that Lampard is very good at his one trick.

Joe Cole is a far more complete midfielder who can play right across the midfield and would imo bring far more to the England team than Frank Lampard.

[Majiball]

Two points:

1. Fabregas is not overrated - I have seen him countless times and as a passing midfielder, you can't do much better than him.

2. Lampard is also quality, as Majiball pointed out, he has performed at a consistently high level for years at Chelsea and he's definitely up there with the best of them. Comparing players is too subjective, but there should be no argument that Lampard is world class.

EDIT: Although Fabregas IS my favourite player... so a little bias is involved

I have to agree on Fabregas, he's not overrated. I would however side with the below post as I've said on here before World Class for me is a term that should only be reserved for the ultimate and club level alone is not enough.

Good grief! Of course you can eddie. The major international tournaments are precisely where comparisons can be made. Messi might simply turn out to be another John Barnes / Cantona / Ginola. Great at club level but coming up short of really true greatness. 'World class' is a term devalued by being used far too frequently.

How many times have you heard about the 'step up' from national to international level from players who play the game? If players cannot cut the mustard at international level they cannot be considered truly world class and thats that. To do so is to devalue the likes of the true greats like Pele, Cruyff, Zidane, Maradona etc.

I'm glad someone else thinks this way, the term "world class" is banded around far too easily these days. Is Messi world class?? He's bloody close but in reality has he performed on every stage consistently for 6-7 years such as the likes of the above mentioned players? No. A World class player should be able to drive his national team to achievements that before were not always possible. He must perform on every stage he partakes in and excel on an almost game by game basis, for a serious number of years.

How many England players would I class as "world class" players 0, because they have all fallen short at international level. World implies every country on the planet, so for me it means every level of the game must be considered.

On Frank, here's a funny stat for you:

Frank Lampard was England's most accurate passer at the business end of the pitch, but his completion percentage of 84 is relatively modest. In football circles, the phrase the English Disease once referred to hooliganism; these days it is more likely to mean the apparent chronic inability to pass the ball to a team-mate, which has driven Fabio Capello to distraction and led to Franz Beckenbauer disdainfully asserting that England "have gone backwards to the bad old times of kick and rush".

Link to article

84% is pretty high and he consistently gets similar at Chelsea, covers more ground than any other midfielder at his club and is generally top of the interventions chart there as well. To call him a one trick pony is harsh he's got a lot more to his game than just 20 goals a season. He'd easily make a premiership 11 chosen by most mangers in the game, not even Scholes can rival that. Its such a shame no international manager has been able to fit him and Gerrard together and got them firing together. Surely there must be a way.

[Eddie]

World Class for me means in the top 10 in their position at the time. It's really as simple as that.

[Billy Castell]

Green

Johnson Terry Dawson A. Cole

Barry

Lennon Gerrard Milner/J.Cole

Rooney

Crouch

That would be my team, though I can't decide between Milner and Joe Cole. Rooney plays in a 'number 10' role whilst Crouch wins headers, and has the option of scoring a goal. Barry was missed as the cleaner in midfield in the last game.

[neekoy]

World Class for me means in the top 10 in their position at the time. It's really as simple as that.

So why are you saying Lampard?

[jim mk2]

Goalscoring midfield players are worth their weight in gold and Lampard has scored 20 plus goals a season for years in the Premier League. He is the first name on Chelsea's team sheet under a succession of top-class managers and would be one of the first names on the team sheet in a PL representative XI. He would walk into every top European club side, including Barcelona's. At international level he is England's best midfield player and would be a candidate for a World XI. End of story.

[thenodrog]

World Class for me means in the top 10 in their position at the time. It's really as simple as that.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Goalscoring midfield players are worth their weight in gold and Lampard has scored 20 plus goals a season for years in the Premier League. He is the first name on Chelsea's team sheet under a succession of top-class managers and would be one of the first names on the team sheet in a PL representative XI. He would walk into every top European club side, including Barcelona's. At international level he is England's best midfield player and would be a candidate for a World XI. End of story.

Yeah but rem you think Gordon Brown was a good PM.