Group C Discussion - Algeria, England, Slovenia, Usa

[thenodrog]

Its such a shame no international manager has been able to fit him and Gerrard together and got them firing together. Surely there must be a way.

The only way is to pick one of them and tell the other that the door is always open and to try harder. It would incentivise and improve the pair of them. If one didn't improve then he's history. Simple man management. Slavishly playing them both quite obviously works only to provide a dissincentive.

When we had two of the best keepers in the world in Clemence and Shilton we didn't play them both did we?

[tcj_jones]

For me, 'world class' loosely translates to 'one of the best in the world'.

Players that fall into the category for me are the likes of Messi, Kaka, Ronaldo, Rooney, Fabregas, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Torres, Drogba, Essien, Given, A. Cole, Maicon, Ramos, Scneijder...

Lampard and Gerrard are difficult to define, because they are absolutely brilliant players in the Premier League and in European competition, yet are virtually anonymous on the international stage. Fabregas is also a difficult one, as he is unfortunate enough to play with Xavi and Iniesta for Spain, and thus doesn't often feature. Similarly, the likes of Drogba, Essien, and Given might not make such an impact on the big stage because of the teams they play for. Unlike Gerrard and Lampard, however, they will never have an opportunity to play for a better international side.

In terms of collective playing ability on an international stage, England are well behind the likes of Argentina, Brazil, Holland, Spain. Meanwhile, the way that France and Italy set up means that they're usually more effective in grinding out results against the more attack-minded and flamboyant sides, while the Germans have a great winning mentality to match a strong squad of players.

Therefore, I'd probably say that all of those aforementioned teams are better than England in big tournaments, and that we are more on a par with, say, Portugal as a good outside bet.

The only way is to pick one of them and tell the other that the door is always open and to try harder. It would incentivise and improve the pair of them. If one didn't improve then he's history. Simple man management. Slavishly playing them both quite obviously works only to provide a dissincentive.

When we had two of the best keepers in the world in Clemence and Shilton we didn't play them both did we?

Just look at how the Spanish have Fabregas on the bench, and even Torres sometimes.

We should drop one of Lampard / Gerrard and play J. Cole on the left if we're going to play 4-4-2. They can only work together in a 5-4-1.

[Eddie]

I'm actually agreeing with Jim!

Neekoy, we disagreed on how many players are better than him.

[bellamy11]

Absolute bloody tosh! World class by definition means that a player has to be considered on of the best X1 players on the planet. Lampard isn't even one of the best X1 in the Prem.

Generally agree with what you're saying on this topic (certainly regarding Lampard's status and how Gerrard and Lampard should not be immune from bench time) but find it hard to agree with your interpretation of World Class.

As you've said in the past (again rightly), if there were 20 Sir Alex Fergusons in the Premiership three would still get relegated. If Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano and players of that ilk all existed at the same time they couldn't possibly all get into one X1. Does that mean some aren't actually world class in retrospect?

[tcj_jones]

Good post.

[neekoy]

Give yourself a wrap jonesy

Simply saying end of story doesn't make it so Jim.

I don't think it should be down to International to define World Class otherwise where would you put someone like Giggs or George Best who never really had an opportunity.

I just know that Lampard is overrated, great goal scorer and is crucial to Chelsea's gameplan and formation but to say with the support he recieves from the quality around him I wouldn't expect anything less from a goalscorer of his quality.

He just isn't well rounded in a technical sense, Gerrard scores goals and is a good defender, Fabreglass scores goals and can thread a ball through a staggered defence at the feet, Essien can do everything, the list goes on.

[Ozz]

Moving on to tonight-Surely Joe Cole must get a run out?

-----Rooney-Heskey------

---Cole-Lampard-Gerrard-

-------Barry----------

Cole-Terry-A Wheelie Bin-Johnson

-------James----------

Not too worried about Algeria TBH

Off to Glasgow for the weekend, and watching England play a world cup match surround by Jocks. Should be interesting!

[philipl]

The only question for tonight- can Algeria and Slovenia really be as bad as they looked when they played each other?

[Eddie]

Algeria really aren't good, Slovenia are probably a bit better than they looked.

Sadly I think we'll see Gerrard on the left and Rooney up front with Heskey. I don't know why we can't just play Gerrard behind Rooney, with Lennon and perhaps Joe Cole out wide to give a bit of pace and attacking force and then Lampard and Barry in the middle. It would allow Rooney to really lead the line, would give Gerrard attacking freedom and would even allow Lampard to get forward with a bit more ease knowing that he still had Barry to sit back.

[Majiball]

Capello was talking the other day and was asked about which positions he was still unsure on. He mentioned the keeper obviously, and I think since some of the players have mentioned him as long as he's fit it should be James. Talksport are saying he will start, as green whilst training with the press watching committed yet another howler. The other position he mentioned was the striker, Heskey. Now I would have thought that Crouch would have been the alternative but Capello mentioned Defoe. I've always wondered how the two Rooney and him would play together as defoe is a true goal scorer.

Personally if it is to be two, I'd like to see crouch as although Rooney is good in the air the two together (defoe & rooney) pretty much means England will struggle to score on crosses. However playing the two together may force them to do something that they need to do retain the ball better and not be so direct. It also means that your forced into fitting Gerrard and Lampard in somehow. I do wonder if the midfield could be a bit more narrow and in the main use the full backs to provide the wide and the majority of crosses?

-------------James-------------

Johnson---Terry---Jamie---Cole

----------Barry---Lampard------

------Gerrard--Rooney--Cole----

--------------Defoe------------

I won't be surprised to see the above tonight, but Capello seems to really rate Lennon. Personnally I'd play the above but drop defoe, move Rooney up top, Lampard into Rooneys spot and include Carrick. Johnson and A. Cole provide the width, Cole, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney the attacking threat.

[tcj_jones]

I would like to see J. Cole start, but I don't see it happening.

I think Capello will play this team, though I don't agree with it:

James

Johnson / Terry / Carragher / A. Cole

Lennon / Lampard / Barry / Gerrard

Heskey / Rooney

I still think we'll win comfortably, maybe 2-0.

[LeChuck]

Drop Defoe for Lennon and that would be my strongest XI, Maj.

[Majiball]

Drop Defoe for Lennon and that would be my strongest XI, Maj.

Fair do's, I just don't see what he brings to the table other than pace really. Can't put in a decent cross, not that it matters really without a decent man in the air. Dribbles well, but still can't produce an end product. I'd like to see hm being brought on late on about 70 or so to stretch the legs of the full back once he's tired.

I would like to see England play narrow in the middle though.

My England team.

-------------James------------

Johnson---Terry---Jamie---Cole

----------Barry---Carrick------

----Gerrard--Lampard--Cole-----

-------------Rooney------------

I know Carrick's not been great this year but he can pick a pass and has a good range at his disposal. With Barry and Him there, Johnson and Cole can really push on and provide the width. Cole for me must play he's got that little bit of magic about him and with Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney for him to pick out surely they can score some goals. Also having the two deeper mid-fielders will hopefully give the front 4 a bit more licence to play further up the pitch where they can do some serious damage.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Calamity James to start according to the BBC.

[beerwins]

Fair do's, I just don't see what he brings to the table other than pace really. Can't put in a decent cross, not that it matters really without a decent man in the air. Dribbles well, but still can't produce an end product. I'd like to see hm being brought on late on about 70 or so to stretch the legs of the full back once he's tired.

I would like to see England play narrow in the middle though.

My England team.

-------------James------------

Johnson---Terry---Jamie---Cole

----------Barry---Carrick------

----Gerrard--Lampard--Cole-----

-------------Rooney------------

I know Carrick's not been great this year but he can pick a pass and has a good range at his disposal. With Barry and Him there, Johnson and Cole can really push on and provide the width. Cole for me must play he's got that little bit of magic about him and with Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney for him to pick out surely they can score some goals. Also having the two deeper mid-fielders will hopefully give the front 4 a bit more licence to play further up the pitch where they can do some serious damage.

Now that for me would be our best team by a mile, well it certainly would be the most attacking team Gerrard, Lampard and Joe Cole all in the posistions that suit them best and Rooney in the posistion that he plays best.

[Amo]

Calamity James to start according to the BBC.

Capello should stick with Green. That's the keeper he picked for the first and most challenging game of the group. Would we drop Robinson for one clanger? Would Sir Alex drop Van Der Sar? I'm not saying for one moment that Green should play for England or that he's good enough, but Capello picked him and should give him the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise it clearly proves that he has no clue who his No. 1 really is.

[BuckyRover]

James was injured in the build up to the last match. So you are talking tabloid induced poppycock, as usual.

What is the point of having a number one anyway, if they are all at a similar level? If Allardyce thought that our second choice keeper had become better than Robbo would he not pick him because he wasn't first choice. The entire argument is totally stupid.

[Amo]

What is the point of having a number one anyway, if they are all at a similar level. If Allardyce thought that our second choice keeper had become better than Robbo would he not pick him because he wasn't first choice. The entire argument is totally stupid.

Over the course of a season it makes perfect sense. But Capello has had a year's worth of PL games, international matches and training sessions to decide on his best goalkeeper. Now if, after one gaffe in the opening game, he decides that decision was fundamentally wrong, it doesn't say much for his assessment in the first place.

[BuckyRover]

James was injured last week. There is absolutely nothing to say he wasn't first choice the whole time, and the only reason Green played was because James wasn't fully fit and he didn't want to risk ruling him out for the entire tournament.

That would make more sense than the illustrious Capello not knowing what makes a good goalkeeper. The only reason stories are being written in this way, is because he is not telling the journos anything and so don't really have anything to say, rendering them useless. Hence the bulls**t.

[Exiled_Rover]

Couldn't Adidas have saved themselves a lot of time and money and just gone down to ASDA for their WC ball? It acts like a 'flyaway' anyway....

[frosty]

1-0 to Slovenia, if they win this they will have 6 points from 6. Meaning England must win their two games to come top.

[DE.]

Slovenia are through to the next round if they win this one... the Americans look very poor. Makes it even more disappointing we couldn't beat them.

[Tim Southampton Rover]

2-0 now.

Totally agree DE4life, it's extremely disappointing that we couldn't get a better result against a team who are looking extremely bad at the back.

At first I thought he was offside but the linesman got it 100% right. Excellent decision and well taken goal.

[DE.]

Slovenia don't look like they're going to be the walkovers everyone was predicting either. We definitely need a good, comprehensive win tonight.

[BuckyRover]

The USA set out their stall against us. They obviously thought they would be able to beat Slovenia but have messed it up. Not totally unexpected. It now means we are guaranteed to top the group if we win our remaining two games.