Second Round (Last 16) Discussion

[Eddie]

Even combined Portugal and The Netherlands have well over 20,000,000 less inhabitants than us. Not to mention Portugal reaching a semi-final of the World Cup (better than we have done for 20 years) and a Euro final (better than we have EVER done in that competition) in the last 6 years alone. This is with a population of 11 million.

As for Argentina...well, 2 World Cup wins, a World Cup final and a couple of continental titles since 66 for a nation that is far poorer than England and has a good 10 million or so less of a population...

It just smacks of us, as a nation, of being truly cr@p at football...

Many people around the world think of England as a great football nation. The daft thing is that we really should be. The demographics do not lie. We should have had golden periods like Italy, France, Germany, Argentina etc...

Why haven't we?

Capello - nor any manager - can be blamed for that.

You really shouldn't judge it based purely on population size. Those are other countries where the main sport is football and they have a long history of playing the sport and good domestic leagues.

As I said, when you look at our performances in world cups and european championships over the last 20 years it really isn't that bad (two semi-final losses on penalties to the eventual winners, a quarter-final exit on penalties to the eventual runners-up, extra-time loss to the eventual winners, quater-final losses on penalties to respectable sides), it is hardly as if England are embarrassing themselves at competitions (with the exceptions being 1994 and 2008). You have to have luck on your side to win one of these and in all honesty we just haven't had it (no doubt this will get laughter from some parts on here, but it is the case). Shoot-outs have a large element of luck involved, we've been on the wrong end of disallowed goals and red cards and almost every 50/50 decision at crucial moments has gone against us (with probably the one exception being Brazil going down to 10 in 2002, not that it was undeserved).

Very few sides win the World Cup these days without winning a game in extra-time or on penalties, often having to do that more than once, so it's just been a case of England not quite managing to pull it off rather than being catastrophic failures.

I think our demise has been previously carried out in Scotland. That tiny nation produced lots of excellent footballers and managers and exported most of em to us. But whats happened? The well seems dry. Genetics don't change that quickly so lets look behind the scenes at the social changes over the years. What has altered the scottish psyche? The Welfare state banishing absolute poverty possibly (relative poverty means nowt btw)? Comprehensive education? Glasgow's industrial base disappearing?

Whatever it is somethings altered up there.... and now it's moving south.

Scotland continues to produce some great managers, so the football culture is obviously alive and well. It's a tiny nation though, so there are always going to be down periods in the talent pool and for the last 10-20 years that has been the case.

[J-2]

Definition of average:

lacking special distinction, rank, or status; commonly encountered; lacking exceptional quality or ability; an intermediate scale value regarded as normal or usual

That sums up England pretty well to me. And it's a completely neutral perspective...personally, I couldn't care less if the English national team never won another match or won the next 10 straight World Cup trophies. England is an average international side. Nothing more, nothing less. They are more talented than the minnows, but can't be placed into the same class as the elite footballing nations. That's why their round of 16 exit wasn't as much of a shock to me as it is to some of you. That's also why some of the dismissive and arrogant talk I hear is so baffling to me (like the EASY headline in The Sun after the groups were announced). Some of the media and supporters need to rid themselves of the belief that the players can simply show up at any tournament and walk straight to the trophy podium simply because the jersey has England written on it. I know it's a fringe element, but still...

As has been mentioned on here, though, I truly do feel bad for the supporters who spent money that either took years to save or will require years to repay to travel and watch this "team." My old lady is a die hard England supporter, but fortunately in the end, I managed to talk her into waiting until 2014 in Brazil to go for our huge WC vacation.

[Majiball]

I think our demise has been previously carried out in Scotland. That tiny nation produced lots of excellent footballers and managers and exported most of em to us. But whats happened? The well seems dry. Genetics don't change that quickly so lets look behind the scenes at the social changes over the years. What has altered the scottish psyche? The Welfare state banishing absolute poverty possibly (relative poverty means nowt btw)? Comprehensive education? Glasgow's industrial base disappearing?

Whatever it is somethings altered up there.... and now it's moving south.

ROFLMAO, Now Scotlands to blame for your crap showing at the world cup.

Trouble is down south your well dried up during your golden age. Anyway congratulations on getting one step further than we ever have.

Funny post by the way.

[SouthAussieRover]

You mean the yellow card v Germany?

Or did he get sent off another time?

I stand corrected.However knowing the card meant he missed the following match absolutely devastated him.All thanks to the antics of a cheating German player.

[Steve Moss]

Definition of average:

lacking special distinction, rank, or status; commonly encountered; lacking exceptional quality or ability; an intermediate scale value regarded as normal or usual

That sums up England pretty well to me. . .

I think this is a bit unfair. A total of 204 teams were initial entrants in the World Cup's qualifying rounds. England qualified and participated through the round of 16. Assuming that it was the worst of the 16 (which I believe to be untrue), England's team is still in the top 8% in the world. Not bad for a team allegedly "lacking in special distinction."

And how many times has England won the WC? Once, I think. Does that mean every other English team to win is also lacking in distinction? I doubt it.

To be clear, the team fielded by England this year had problems. Most of which I chalk up to the personalities of the players. But this is correctable. I'd start by banning from the squad every player who has an endorsement contract. That should weed out those who have more money than sense.

By rights England is a top 8 team, and will always be a contender. It's just a matter of putting footballers in charge of your FA, and not marketing gurus.

[Eddie]

I stand corrected.However knowing the card meant he missed the following match absolutely devastated him.All thanks to the antics of a cheating German player.

You'd usually get a yellow for what he did.

Some nice points there, Smoss...not sure about the endorsements bit though.

[dillo_dillo]

At last I came back in my life.

I felt SO tired .

I understand well, that match was not a high quality and boredom to watch. Both side were too much playing defensively.

However, when I watched the game we were very excited and in tense situations.

you know it was the match of our country's, often we stopped breath ... every set pieces, our chance and pinch.

I think We felt joy ... got it in our fourth World Cup challenge that our football level to making some progress to fight against the world...

[FourLaneBlue]

You really shouldn't judge it based purely on population size.

I didn't just base it on that but it is a big factor.

However...

- Rich

- football-mad

- Western European nation

- with one of the world's great leagues.

- Add in a population of 50 million

- and a great footballing tradition.

For all that we have managed ZERO appearances in a major final in our history outside of 66.

People can talk about penalties or dodgy refereeing decisions until the cows come home but it doesn't matter.

We are the greatest underachievers in world football. Something has been, and remains, rotten at the heart of the English national team.

I'm damned if I know what the hell it is though, to be fair!

That's why their round of 16 exit wasn't as much of a shock to me as it is to some of you.

That bit is not right.

It was more the fact that we were truly humiliated and awful all tournament long. They ripped us apart every time they attacked.

Losing to Germany in itself is hardly something to be ashamed of.

[Steve Moss]

Some nice points there, Smoss...not sure about the endorsements bit though.

Maybe I went a bit far. But the theory would be you want hungry players with something to prove. Guys who are on the cusp of making the cash but not quite there. The types that a succesful WC run would put them in the clover.

England's squad wasn't hungry, or at least not enough of them were. I think they had the ability, but lacked the motiviation, the focus.

[thenodrog]

ROFLMAO, Now Scotlands to blame for your crap showing at the world cup.

Trouble is down south your well dried up during your golden age. Anyway congratulations on getting one step further than we ever have.

Funny post by the way.

You wouldn't find it so funny if you'd been able to see the quality of the sweaties who played down here in the 60's and 70's. Top class players who would easily have contributed 4 or 5 players to a combined UK team. Now I doubt they'd contribute any.

At last I came back in my life.

I felt SO tired .

I understand well, that match was not a high quality and boredom to watch. Both side were too much playing defensively.

However, when I watched the game we were very excited and in tense situations.

you know it was the match of our country's, often we stopped breath ... every set pieces, our chance and pinch.

I think We felt joy ... got it in our fourth World Cup challenge that our football level to making some progress to fight against the world...

Hard luck dillo. That cracking shot that hit the bar was the defining moment for you.

[J-2]

I think this is a bit unfair. A total of 204 teams were initial entrants in the World Cup's qualifying rounds. England qualified and participated through the round of 16. Assuming that it was the worst of the 16 (which I believe to be untrue), England's team is still in the top 8% in the world. Not bad for a team allegedly "lacking in special distinction."

And how many times has England won the WC? Once, I think. Does that mean every other English team to win is also lacking in distinction? I doubt it.

Maybe not average compared to the rest of the world, but England certainly looks very average whenever it comes time for a major international tournament. Again, what part of the game do they execute particularly well? Their defense was torn apart when they faced a young German attack, their supposedly world-class striker failed to register a single goal in the tournament, and their midfield stars never seem to be able to mesh their talents and play as a unit. One World Cup is a small sample size, but it's not as if this is something new.

That's their biggest problem, IMO. They don't really execute any part of the game head and shoulders above their competition.

To be clear, the team fielded by England this year had problems. Most of which I chalk up to the personalities of the players. But this is correctable. I'd start by banning from the squad every player who has an endorsement contract. That should weed out those who have more money than sense.

I don't know about the endorsement part. Other nations have players who endorse products and seem to make it work somehow. As far as the player attitudes, I definitely agree. I'd bet anything that the first time Capello met with England's players, he told them something along the lines of "If you want to play for me, you're going to have to follow a strict regimen which includes a, b, c..." They probably blew it off as managerial nonsense and didn't take him seriously. I don't think he's the right guy for the England post, but not because he isn't a quality manager.

By rights England is a top 8 team, and will always be a contender. It's just a matter of putting footballers in charge of your FA, and not marketing gurus.

By what rights? This is exactly what I'm talking about. No team can be labeled a "rightful" contender until they earn and prove it on the field of play. England has one WC and zero European championships on their resume. In fact, the limit of England's capabilities in the European Championships was making the semifinals twice...hardly the credentials which force everyone to automatically consider them contenders for every single tournament they enter.

Uruguay has two WC wins in their footballing history, but I'll bet if I took an informal poll of x number of English media and supporters and asked which nation has a more storied football history, the overwhelming response would be England...and I have no idea what they'd base it on...

[Majiball]

You wouldn't find it so funny if you'd been able to see the quality of the sweaties who played down here in the 60's and 70's. Top class players who would easily have contributed 4 or 5 players to a combined UK team. Now I doubt they'd contribute any.

You might be surprised how much I do know.

And anyway if there was a UK team, it would be run by a Scotsman.

[Amo]

By what rights? This is exactly what I'm talking about. No team can be labeled a "rightful" contender until they earn and prove it on the field of play. England has one WC and zero European championships on their resume. In fact, the limit of England's capabilities in the European Championships was making the semifinals twice...hardly the credentials which force everyone to automatically consider them contenders for every single tournament they enter.

Uruguay has two WC wins in their footballing history, but I'll bet if I took an informal poll of x number of English media and supporters and asked which nation has a more storied football history, the overwhelming response would be England...and I have no idea what they'd base it on...

Bingo. You're right on the money. Why this country holds it breath every time England enter a major tournament is beyond me. England haven't won squat for years and cling to 1966 like a baby suckling the proverbial teat. They'll milk it dry until they finally win the World Cup, which could be another 44 years from the looks of it.

[Eddie]

By what rights? This is exactly what I'm talking about. No team can be labeled a "rightful" contender until they earn and prove it on the field of play. England has one WC and zero European championships on their resume. In fact, the limit of England's capabilities in the European Championships was making the semifinals twice...hardly the credentials which force everyone to automatically consider them contenders for every single tournament they enter.

Uruguay has two WC wins in their footballing history, but I'll bet if I took an informal poll of x number of English media and supporters and asked which nation has a more storied football history, the overwhelming response would be England...and I have no idea what they'd base it on...

You'd be really silly if you really judged it based on past performances, it isn't a factor when a team goes into a championship. England came into this world cup with a chance of winning it, they weren't favourites, but like a good 9-10 other sides they had a legitimate chance.

[RoyRover]

I read an interesting piece the other day on the Daily Mirror website in which the James Nursey spoke about how England had to be honest with itself and admit that they are a long way off the worlds best and have been for a long time and have to accept that they are in the same bracket of teams such as Uruguay, Serbia and Ghana. Hardly bad company to be in.

[Eddie]

In the same company as Serbia and Ghana? Talk about an overreaction to 4 bad games.

[Rovermatt]

Sounds pretty spot on to be honest. Turning one's nose up at Ghana (considering the tournament showing they've produced) is indicative of the kind of mindset that hinders certain English supporters from grasping the cold reality of the situation. The sides cited are respectable teams but very far away from being world beaters. Having said that, Serbia were really poor at this World Cup. At least England escaped the group.

[broadsword]

Instead of carping about it, we should swallow our pride and re-structure the game. Otherwise this nonsense will just go on and on.

[Rovermatt]

the limit of England's capabilities in the European Championships was making the semifinals twice...hardly the credentials which force everyone to automatically consider them contenders for every single tournament they enter.

I could have sworn they made the semi-final in 1996 only.

[tony gale's mic]

What was Spain's major tournament record before Euro 2008? People still rightly talked of them as contenders though due to the players they had at their disposal and the way they were playing, and they delivered on this.

I'm not saying we're as good as Spain, but if we're playing good football in 4 years' time and have a nucleus of new exciting players in the side, we'll have every right to rate ourselves as contenders.

[dillo_dillo]

Where did FIFA say they will cut the Asian numbers?

No way. Asia had two teams in the last 16 this year. Africa had only 1 team. There is no way they will take one spot away from Asia.

it will be OK!

"Facts don’t lie: Asians deserve FWC quota"

http://www.the-afc.com/en/features/29539-facts-dont-lie-asians-deserve-fwc-quota

[Eddie]

Sounds pretty spot on to be honest. Turning one's nose up at Ghana (considering the tournament showing they've produced) is indicative of the kind of mindset that hinders certain English supporters from grasping the cold reality of the situation. The sides cited are respectable teams but very far away from being world beaters. Having said that, Serbia were really poor at this World Cup. At least England escaped the group.

Sure thing.

[broadsword]

What was Spain's major tournament record before Euro 2008? People still rightly talked of them as contenders though due to the players they had at their disposal and the way they were playing, and they delivered on this.

I'm not saying we're as good as Spain, but if we're playing good football in 4 years' time and have a nucleus of new exciting players in the side, we'll have every right to rate ourselves as contenders.

That's what hell of an if.

We generally haven't lived up to the hype for at least 20 years. (Remember Graham Taylor saying put your feet up and watch us win it in 1992?) We don't, on the whole produce technically proficient players, for what exact reason I'm not sure. But if we want to be in with a chance of winning a major tournament, that means major changes in the way kids are coached, and the effects of those changes obviously won't percolate through for the next 3 World Cups.

Sad as it is to say, if I was a betting man, I'd put good money on England not winning a world cup in my lifetime. That could be another 10-12 world cups.

[tony gale's mic]

That's what hell of an if.

We generally haven't lived up to the hype for at least 20 years. (Remember Graham Taylor saying put your feet up and watch us win it in 1992?) We don't, on the whole produce technically proficient players, for what exact reason I'm not sure. But if we want to be in with a chance of winning a major tournament, that means major changes in the way kids are coached, and the effects of those changes obviously won't percolate through for the next 3 World Cups.

Sad as it is to say, if I was a betting man, I'd put good money on England not winning a world cup in my lifetime. That could be another 10-12 world cups.

Gerrard, Rooney, Cole, Ferdinand, Terry and Lampard are quite clearly technically "proficient" players. They're stars at the highest level for their clubs, not just passengers. They may not be flair players but you do not go as far as you do in their careers without being technically proficient. We've had a nucleus of quality players for a while, but they've got older and slower and haven't been able to play at all well as a team at international level for reasons we may never know. There's not a single side in international football with individual players like ours who have underachieved so badly over the last two decades.

I agree changes need to be made in the way kids are coached and these need to be implemented but we also need to make the most of our current crop of youngsters, many of whom have bright futures. Italy weren't exactly a vintage side when they won the World Cup last time round, don't even get me started on Greece in '04 - it is still very possible to win a trophy without completely overhauling things and giving ourselves no chance for the next two decades.

Noone knows what the starting lineup in 2014 will look like as there'll be a huge amount of changes but four years is a massive amount of time for players to mature, for unknown ones to emerge. People forget this but in 2002 we were arguably the second best team on show - we beat Argentina more comfortably than the 1-0 scoreline suggested, walloped a Denmark team who were considerably better than the current crop, came through a tough group with Sweden and Nigeria along with Argentina and for the first half against Brazil looked pretty comfortable at 1-0 up until the stoppage time goal.

Yes there does need to be a revolution in the way football is coached to the youngsters - we hardly produce any flair players being the biggest problem - but that doesn't mean we should give up all hope of challenging in 2014 when we have no idea who will be playing and how they'll be playing.

[Eddie]

There doesn't need to be a total overhaul, there just needs to be better management and preparation and clearly a change in the mindset of the players themselves. The current squad has enough talent and there are talented players who didn't even make it (personally I would have included the likes of Bent, Young, Walcott, etc), it's just that they didn't play well as a team. That doesn't mean that the skills aren't there, simply that they aren't being used. If the result of this tournament is that the FA and the English footballing public decide that they players simply weren't good enough then we really will be in big trouble. It would be great to see England developing one or two more players who were more of the technical breed, but they aren't completely necessary.

A change of system (pick the best team, not the best 11), a change of tactics (play like we do in the premier league, including aggression and tempo), a change of luck (sorry, no matter how people dismiss this but you simply can't win a tournament with disallowed goals and not getting the rub of the green on shoot-outs) and I'd also like to see us inject pace into the side (which is there, but not being used).

We'll need one or two of the players who are already on the scene to make a step up in the next couple of years, but that is entirely possible. We are producing enough players, we just aren't using them well enough and getting the best out of them.