Second Round (Last 16) Discussion

[broadsword]

Point taken about Greece in 2004. Makes me think of Denmark in 1992, they weren't even good enough to qualify from their group.

Ashley Cole, John Terry etc may be good enough to get to the top in England, but I would guess that even after a bedding-in period, they would struggle abroad. Our players just aren't very good at keeping old of the ball. In fact at times, we struggled to pass it short and accurate.

Now it may be that with astute management, we could mould a team that overcomes these deficiencies with hard work, a pragmatic style, and espirit de corps. However, the next bunch of players will have to show one hell of a better attitude if that's to be the case.

At times, England looked liek a park football side. I'm sick to the back teeth of it.

[thenodrog]

Gerrard, Rooney, Cole, Ferdinand, Terry and Lampard are quite clearly technically "proficient" players. They're stars at the highest level for their clubs, not just passengers.

Playing for a top four club ensures that

a. They are not extended enough. Playing in a top team enriched by Champions league funds makes Saturdays a little too easy.

b. They are treated like God's gift to football by the press and media and soon come to believe their own publicity.

c. The Champions league format is a procession to the latter stages for the top clubs. A true knock out format from the off with no ceding might develop better attitudes.

[tony gale's mic]

Point taken about Greece in 2004. Makes me think of Denmark in 1992, they weren't even good enough to qualify from their group.

Ashley Cole, John Terry etc may be good enough to get to the top in England, but I would guess that even after a bedding-in period, they would struggle abroad. Our players just aren't very good at keeping old of the ball. In fact at times, we struggled to pass it short and accurate.

Now it may be that with astute management, we could mould a team that overcomes these deficiencies with hard work, a pragmatic style, and espirit de corps. However, the next bunch of players will have to show one hell of a better attitude if that's to be the case.

At times, England looked liek a park football side. I'm sick to the back teeth of it.

Contrary to popular opinion the few English players that have gone abroad have actually done quite well on the whole. Beckham, McManaman, Owen and further back Lineker, Ince etc. They are well capable of passing accurately for their clubs - when a team that does so well individually against the best club teams in the world struggles against the likes of Algeria you know that surely it's not individual talent that's the main issue here. I do think that Terry wouldn't be so good abroad but I think Ashley Cole will be a success if he moves abroad, he's actually consistently performed well for England on the big stage too.

We don't produce enough flair players - this is definitely true - but this doesn't diminish the talents of the players we do have. I think part of the problem with the current side is the attitude but also that it's essentially got the same spine as the side of 6-8 years ago; initially we were genuinely one of the best teams around but have got progressively worse since the 2002 World Cup and desperately need a fresh injection of players.

It is worth noting that for much of yesterday's game (except for the final 20 or so) Spain looked a lot like this England side. Slow, cumbersome, lacking a cutting edge - yes they're a better side than England on paper and on the pitch but any side in the world can look bad.

[Rovermatt]

Sure thing.

The evidence would suggest it is indeed a 'sure thing'. Anyway, what's so wrong with Ghana?

[Majiball]

If anything I think British players in the main lack game intelligence and creativity.

[tony gale's mic]

If anything I think British players in the main lack game intelligence and creativity.

Definitely agree on the creativity. However we've produced them in the past - Joe Cole (at his best), Gazza, Le Tissier, Scholes, McManaman if we're just talking English players, and then Giggs if we're talking British, but for various reasons they've never fully realised their potential on the international stage with the possible exception of Scholes. A few of the new batch look like they might have a creative spark.

[roversfan99]

When we do come across a player with flair it seems we dont know what to do with them. Le Tissier didnt get many caps and both Joe Cole and Scholes were played out of position on the left.

[Majiball]

Definitely agree on the creativity. However we've produced them in the past - Joe Cole (at his best), Gazza, Le Tissier, Scholes, McManaman if we're just talking English players, and then Giggs if we're talking British, but for various reasons they've never fully realised their potential on the international stage with the possible exception of Scholes. A few of the new batch look like they might have a creative spark.

Oh you've definitely created them but no where near enough. Players that run with the ball have an end product, but also those that can spot a pass other can't and get it there. You see so many coaching sessions where the kids are told run from here to here, when you get there do this. Its rigid and creates robots and predictable players. Just let the kids play the game and manipulate the rules so they learn without knowing. Not enough of this goes on at all levels.

On game intelligence, you just don't see enough players in England, who can create their own space exploit it, play the quick correct ball and then create more space and look to receive the ball again knowing already where its going next. Its all hit it forward first, hit the front man. Its predictable and easily defended, Spain are awesome at this if they could be a bit more risky in the final third they'd be one of the best ever.

England seem to thing that players that run with the ball must play out wide, always.

[dave birch]

Oh you've definitely created them but no where near enough. Players that run with the ball have an end product, but also those that can spot a pass other can't and get it there. You see so many coaching sessions where the kids are told run from here to here, when you get there do this. Its rigid and creates robots and predictable players. Just let the kids play the game and manipulate the rules so they learn without knowing. Not enough of this goes on at all levels.

I can't agree enough, magiball.

I've often thought that the best players get their style coached out of them. Let them play their natural game and mould the rest of the team around them.

[thenodrog]

If anything I think British players in the main lack game intelligence and creativity.

Dunno about that but I'm absolutely certain that our two most capped 'world class' midfielders do!

I have been since Korea / Japan too.

[thenodrog]

When we do come across a player with flair it seems we dont know what to do with them. Le Tissier didnt get many caps and both Joe Cole and Scholes were played out of position on the left.

Correct. Bobby Robson was too embarrassed to leave him out so he made the best midfielder that we've ever been blessed with in Glenn Hoddle play wide on then right wing in Mexico! Remind you of anyone? We played terribly for the opening two games until Reid and Robson (Bryan) ignored the manager and changed the midfield tactics themselves to allow Hoddle the freedom of the park. We were only undone by the hand of God.

Oh you've definitely created them but no where near enough. Players that run with the ball have an end product, but also those that can spot a pass other can't and get it there. You see so many coaching sessions where the kids are told run from here to here, when you get there do this. Its rigid and creates robots and predictable players. Just let the kids play the game and manipulate the rules so they learn without knowing. Not enough of this goes on at all levels.

On game intelligence, you just don't see enough players in England, who can create their own space exploit it, play the quick correct ball and then create more space and look to receive the ball again knowing already where its going next. Its all hit it forward first, hit the front man. Its predictable and easily defended, Spain are awesome at this if they could be a bit more risky in the final third they'd be one of the best ever.

England seem to thing that players that run with the ball must play out wide, always.

Never mind passing ability, it's movement OFF the ball that is most lacking in our players. We are a nation of ball watchers.

[LeChuck]

When we do come across a player with flair it seems we dont know what to do with them. Le Tissier didnt get many caps and both Joe Cole and Scholes were played out of position on the left.

Rigid 4-4-2 formations don't lend themselves well to accommodating flair midfielders, which is why ours usually get shunted out wide.

Until we rid ourselves of religiously playing this formation we have no chance of playing with the fluidity and technique that other foreign teams manage. A well balanced 4-2-3-1 can have three flair midfielders in it, you're lucky to squeeze one into a 4-4-2.

It's amazing that we still can't bring ourselves to try something new given that we've adopted a 'foreign manager' approach for quite some time now.

[Majiball]

Never mind passing ability, it's movement OFF the ball that is most lacking in our players. We are a nation of ball watchers.

But I was talking about movement off the ball, IE space.

[RoyRover]

You see how other countries with big name players are willing to drop them if the manager doesn't think that they necessarily suit the teams style of play. Spain have benched Fabregas and Silva. Argentina dropped Veron and barely played Aguero and Milito. Holland have dropped Van Der Vaart. France put Henry on the bench. You would hope that Capello would be strong enough to do the same to someone like Lampard or Gerrard if he thought that he could play a better system.

[thenodrog]

But I was talking about movement off the ball, IE space.

My version is easier to understand.

[tony gale's mic]

You see how other countries with big name players are willing to drop them if the manager doesn't think that they necessarily suit the teams style of play. Spain have benched Fabregas and Silva. Argentina dropped Veron and barely played Aguero and Milito. Holland have dropped Van Der Vaart. France put Henry on the bench. You would hope that Capello would be strong enough to do the same to someone like Lampard or Gerrard if he thought that he could play a better system.

You can't really compare us with those sides. Henry is old and not the force he used to be. The others are excellent players but had outstanding players keeping them out of the side. Sadly we don't have many outstanding players to force Gerrard or Lampard out, however we should be looking at the make up of the team and not just a collection of individuals.

[Eddie]

We have enough of a choice in central midfield, more than enough. If we were playing a system with Lampard, Gerrard and one other we should have been using Carrick who is a far classier version of Barry.

[Majiball]

My version is easier to understand.

[J-2]

You'd be really silly if you really judged it based on past performances, it isn't a factor when a team goes into a championship. England came into this world cup with a chance of winning it, they weren't favourites, but like a good 9-10 other sides they had a legitimate chance.

If I judged what in past performances...which team has a better history? What other measuring stick can we possibly use besides...you know, results? That was the only point I was making. Uruguay has a better history than England, but I'll bet the majority of England supporters wouldn't see it that way.

You really believe England had a chance of winning this WC? I'd probably have put it at around three to five percent before it all kicked off.