Second Round (Last 16) Discussion

[Eddie]

HA HA HA HA

And they slaughtered us for the other 70. You really do make an idiot of yourself on here sometimes!

Answer this, do you still think Schweinsteiger and Muller would be behind Barry and Milner if they were English?

Sambo was right, my point wasn't that we deserved to win, more that we were more than capable of doing so had we played properly.

Yes, although I wouldn't pick either of them if I had the chance to pick the England team. Schweinsteiger has looked better during this World Cup, but he's spent the last 4 years in the footballing wilderness looking a complete shadow of his former self. He's gone form being a threatening winger to a mediocre playmaker. It was easy for him today as the game opened up and he had all the time in the world to sit back and pick passes as England pushed forward, that isn't the situation in which you judge a player. As I also said, it doesn't really matter how many of them would make the England team, what the German team have going for them now is a well organised unit that know their roles and work well together, they are almost the complete polar opposites of the current England team.

I will say one thing, I don't know how anyone can say that this was worse than the Algeria performance. The defending in this game was terrible, but some of the attacking play was quite good and they moved the ball around well at times. Had the back five/six done their job then the problem wouldn't have been scoring goals.

[Silencio]

does anyone believe that Argentina would put in a better performance if they were given an absolutely nonsensical formation?

Some would say that is what Argentina have done. They have done ok so far because their midfielders and strikers are better than ours...

[beerwins]

Absolute rubbish from the manager down to the tactics and every single player, I would love to blame someone for this but there are just to many to blame.

Playing long balls with that ball and those pitches were just a recipe for disaster, im only glad it was Germany that knocked us out because if we played like that against Argentina It could have been shocking.

John Terry was so bad today it was unreal, what the hell was the idea to get him to watch Ozil when Barry was basically there for that reason, he stretched our back four by coming out and we had no shape in defence at all.

Fabio Capello cant take all of the blame but for the love of god his tactics and subs are totally baffling, we saw how bad Gerrard is out on the left and yet he plays him again and sure enough in wanders Gerrard to the middle and we have no-one out wide for the majority of the game.

Also can somebody explain how when a player plays as bad as Rooney has done how he manages to get picked for the next game, people saying we should be playing with one up front....we were.

Emabarrasing plain and simple.

[Eddie]

By the way, I though Defoe was fantastic today. Good movement and consistently held the ball up against far larger defenders. Played really well and can hold his head up high after that one. He was unlucky to be ruled offside with the header that hit the crossbar, but apart from that didn't really have the service.

[DP]

Why is it either the fault of the players OR the manager? They both let England down.

A complete change in tactics and attitude from Cappello since we qualified. Picking unfit players and leaving out our most exciting talent (Young, Johnson, Huddleston) and going with a rigid formation that doesn't suit our players.

And then to the golden garbage... I don't know what more I can add. One good hour against Slovenia and that was it. Germany even did their best impressions of rabbits in the headlights both at 0-0 and 2-1 but both times we handed back it to them on a plate.

Living room footballers the lot of em. But when it comes to getting on stage, they just haven't got it.

[Amo]

Looks like we are going to get the usual 'the manager is the sole reason why we went out, he must go, we have world class players who should be doing better'.

The media, and people in general need to realise that these players just aren't good enough.

THANK YOU.

Where was all this arrogance and expectation coming from that England would trounce the Germans? The Slovenia game? ...Really? England haven't been convincing throughout this tournament and somehow their superior experience and pedigree was expected to walk over this young German side. I'm really at a loss as to why people were suckered in by this. There's blind faith and then there's pure stupidity.

As for where the blame lies: manager or players, I'd say they've both contributed to England's downfall, but the final say always rest with the manager. His players, his tactics, his call.

[Mr. E]

Damn right. What does Capello know? What does a European-cup winner like Hansen know?

Let's sack Capello and get Mr.E to run the national team. He knows it all.

Oh, and remember, anybody who disagrees with what he is says is stupid and talking "nonesence[sic]".

So because of the achievements of these great "experts", they can never be questioned? No matter what absolute idiocity they say, or no matter what idiotic formation they put out, they can never be wrong because they won titles with different teams in the past?

And yes. Anyone who believes Heskey is an international player, or that 4-5-1 isn't the right (only) formation for England, and that Robinson and Hart aren't much, much better than Green and James, and that Gerrard is not a left sided midfielder is stupid and talking nonesense. I am absolutely convinced in this and stand by every single word.

Most English fans knew exactly what was England's right formation and which players to play there. I am saying nothing out of the ordinary at all. A 10 year old kid on Football Manager can line up England in a more respectable formation. Which makes Capello's decisions all the more mindblowing.

[Steve Moss]

Is it the players, or the manager? I firmly believe it is the players...

Mostly the players, I'd say. They seem to float in their own little world, where they are the center of the universe. They have no understanding, and are lost in their own celebrity.

DISGUSTING - To much money, not eneough pride

I don't think the issue is not enough pride. It may well be too much pride which is misdirected. They are prideful in themselves to the exclusion of all others, including their team and their nation. It's shocking when David Beckham is considered the English patriot, and stands out in that role compared to the rest of them.

To be fair, Lampard and Gerrard have been the only positive things about England. You should be mentioning the likes of Johnson, Upson, Barry and Rooney, who have all been complete garbage this tournament.

We need a manager who the players don't just respect, but want to play for, too. They obviously didn't want to play for Capello.

I thought Lampard and Gerrard where decent, even if they did not mesh. There were others. James wasn't bad, he just had no cover. Heskey tried. England's problem isn't that the team lacks talent, it hasn't been able to gel together as a team.

Maybe that has to do with all of them playing in the PL and are used to seeing the others as opposition? In the USA, for example, our players play all over the world and not in one insular league, so when they come together the petty rivalries are easier to put aside.

And I would not get rid of the manager. It sends the exact wrong message to these players. If I were your FA, I would tell Capello to cease selecting anyone associated with this fiasco and focus the next couple of years bringing up solid U21s. Get players that can play together as a team, and are genuinely grateful for the chance to play for their country as opposed to prima donnas who view it as an inconveince (Rooney) or those who throw snit fits if they don't get their way (Terry).

McLaren and Erickson were idiots too, yes. The fact that a lot of managers have failed doesn't mean that the fault doesn't lie with them. It means that a lot of managers have failed.

Give the team to someone who knows the English game and isn't a complete pansy and let's see what happens. Moyes would be my choice.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Changing managers has not worked in the past. I'd suggest changing tack and getting rid of players.

If Capello does go (not necessarily a positive), getting a home grown manager would be a big plus. It would help reconnect Team England with England's supporters. I personally think Sam (especially with his new emphasis on youth- which would help move the team on over the next several years) or Hodgson is the way to go. Moyes would be good, but I'd stick with an English manager.

[Bobby G]

Graeme Souness just said on Al Jazeera Sports that Rooney's agent has told him that Rooney and other players are complaining of heavy legs and find it difficult breathing in the high altitude and get tired quickly. They are suggesting the altitude training done at 1500 ft was not enough for the few days in Austria as opposed to Germany, Brazil and Spain training at higher altitudes for up to 3 weeks.

Graeme said the same thing happened to him in Mexico 86 just as with Rooney who has a similar build to him (body fat, etc...). He said it killed him.

I think people should look into this explanation as well WHILST NOT denying that this was an over-rated generation of footballers, and they should take a fair amount of stick instead of blaming Capello for everything.

[Blue blood]

There's no doubt Cappello has a significant part in our downfall. After all - he's the manager. There seemed to be massive unrest in the camp, Johnson was exposed at rb all through the tournament with no cover, Gerrard on the left doesn't work at all, baffling substitutions, the refusal to play 4-5-1 or switch tactics.

Having said that, doubt anyone could manage these guys successfully. As others have said, the root of the problem lies much, much deeper. After all we repeatedly have failed in other tournaments, and the managers we've had have done well elsewhere, which suggests deeper problems. I think it comes down to this: our best players didn't turn up, and the rest are nowhere near international class.

So many of our top players just didn't turn up - Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard and Terry can really take the game by the scruff of it's neck, produce that magical block or great pass/goal from nowhere. Any team with them in would expect them to do something this tournament regardless of tactics etc. - but rarely have they looked like world beaters. So either they are not as good as we think, or to me, they just utterly don't perform for England for some reason (I suspect it doesn't mean enough or it's out of their comfort zone). And to be honest I don't think any manager can cope with all his stars treating the tournament as a group holiday.

As for the rest - they aren't good enough. What country on a par with us would have the likes of Upson, Heskey, James, Green, Carragher, Wright-Phillips to name but a few in their squad? Answer: none of them. Doing well in a world cup with dross like this is very difficult indeed.

So the challenge is to get our top class players to transfer their abilities to the international stage, and have a greater quality within the squad so we're not so dependant upon these underpeforming stars. Both things are massive and will take much time, thought, effort and resources. My biggest fear is that the FA won't even start.

[Silencio]

Sambo was right, my point wasn't that we deserved to win, more that we were more than capable of doing so had we played properly.

Yes, although I wouldn't pick either of them if I had the chance to pick the England team. Schweinsteiger has looked better during this World Cup, but he's spent the last 4 years in the footballing wilderness looking a complete shadow of his former self. He's gone form being a threatening winger to a mediocre playmaker. It was easy for him today as the game opened up and he had all the time in the world to sit back and pick passes as England pushed forward, that isn't the situation in which you judge a player. As I also said, it doesn't really matter how many of them would make the England team, what the German team have going for them now is a well organised unit that know their roles and work well together, they are almost the complete polar opposites of the current England team.

Schweinsteiger was poor for 3 years playing wide but looked very good to me whenever he played in the middle for Bayern last year. I would say he has gone from been a mediocre, one-paced winger to a very good playmaker.

Barry was never anything and never will be. He was a disgrace tonight and I hope it's made known to him next season. The fact that Milner is rated at 28 million pounds just highlights how skewed the view of our own players is. He is just an honest, hard-working, but limited player.

[koi]

Regarding Fabio, as I mentioned earlier I'm presuming he'll go but I think he'll be a scapegoat. Okay, tactics are being mentioned but are we really saying that these guys who pick up 100k+ a week are not capable of adapting to different tactics? The truth is they are paid a ridiculous amount of money and over-hyped.

Replacing Capello wont be easy as we have a nucleus of players who think they are above everyone other than their club manager - so long as he plays them. If I was Woy or Harry I wouldn't touch it with a very long faeces-tipped stick.

[Mr. E]

Some would say that is what Argentina have done. They have done ok so far because their midfielders and strikers are better than ours...

Argentina are playing in a perfect formation. They have the best strikers in the world, and Maradona allows them to showcase their ability by playing 3 upfront with Messi right behind the front 2 to create goals. He hasn't scored yet, but that's not because he's a bad player, it's because he is busy making chances and helping Argentina win.

If Argentina were to get rid of Higuain and put a fat lard upfront whose only purpose is not to score goals but to provide "good movement", while they stuck Messi in a position where he has never played good (I don't know, right back?) they would fail too. It's as clear as night and day.

That's not to say England have players as good as Argentina, but the main difference is that Argentina are allowed to play to their full potential. England are stifled by complete tactical ineptitude.

[broadsword]

I'm just gob-smacked by that performance. That was an absolute ass-reaming.

We might as well bin Capello and get someone English. a) He'll be cheaper; and With supposedly one of the greatest managers in the world, we are absolute cack. Might as well be cack with an englishman in charge.

Get Roy Hodgson in with Beckham as his assistant.

[Steve Moss]

Get Roy Hodgson in with Beckham as his assistant.

I like the idea in theory, but does Beckham have either the training (badges), brain power (hearing him speak doesn't suggest he lights the world on fire), or experience (in management- does being a captain count?) to serve as assistant? I think an assistant manager needs at least 2 out of 3.

[Amo]

Get Roy Hodgson in with Beckham as his assistant.

You're a sick, sick man.

[Gus Gus]

Some would say that is what Argentina have done. They have done ok so far because their midfielders and strikers are better than ours...

agree, Argentina have an idiot in charge and they look okay

[The Rover of Finland]

Manager is always a big part but it´s unfair to blame Fabio. Biggest problem is the players to pick from.

England haven´t had a good goalie since I´ve been following football (euro88). 40-year old James as number one is a big joke.

A.Cole is very very avarage if you take a look at best left backs. He has nothing to offer to attacks.

Johnson has played very well only for few first months for Pool. Decent attacking minded right back but in troubles when defending.

Terry is overrated and after the spring he must be nutcase too.

Other central defenders are crap. Still having a laugh all Carra fans. He should retire.

Gerrard seems to play well only for Pool. Why would Real want him?

Lampard seems to play well only for Chelsea.

Barry hasn´t played well since leaving Villa. I don´t get why he was picked.

Milner played great season til early spring. Villa should take the money from City and have a laugh.

Joe Cole isn´t fit but he isn´t Özil either.

Other midfielders are crap. SWP especially.

Rooney is world class but wasn´t even close his level.

Other strikers tells a lot about English problems. It´s year 2010 and Emile Heskey played in every game. Oh dear. Why wasn´t Bent chosen?

England isn´t top8 country in the world. Top16 is pretty much correct. It isn´t Fabio´s fault, problems are much deeper. Without major changes of PL foreign rules England won´t be any better next time.

[broadsword]

I like the idea in theory, but does Beckham have either the training (badges), brain power (hearing him speak doesn't suggest he lights the world on fire), or experience (in management- does being a captain count?) to serve as assistant? I think an assistant manager needs at least 2 out of 3.

He has lovely hair.

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

^A.Cole has been the only decent player we have had over the past 5/6 years. Manager needs to go. English manager? Couldnt care less, i just want a good one. Wrong system, wrong selections. Thats Fabio's fault. The players were useless but there arent any better in this country.

[broadsword]

Without major changes of PL foreign rules England won´t be any better next time.

Yep, grass roots is the biggest problem.

Even if we started sorting it, we'll still be gash in 2014.

[Mr. E]

England isn´t top8 country in the world. Top16 is pretty much correct. It isn´t Fabio´s fault, problems are much deeper. Without major changes of PL foreign rules England won´t be any better next time.

More nonesence. Like England, all of Germanys players play in their home country too. Like the Premiership, the Bundesliga has a large number of foreign players too. So much so that Klose, their top striker, can't even get a game at his club.

England are not in a disadvantage in any way. Not even the lack of a winter break can be blamed.

[philipl]

Let's see how good Germany are or are not in the next round.

I suspect that either Argentina or Mexico will return the answer "not very".

[DE.]

The players and the manager are equally to blame, one is not more to blame than the other.

Capello has already suggested it's the players that are at fault - he said it's in their head, something mentally that stops them being the team he sees on the training pitch.

Meanwhile, the players (Jay Tee specifically) seem to argue that the tactics and team selection are wrong. They were effectively gagged by Capello, who didn't really seem interested in what the media or players thought of his decisions.

If the manager and players aren't pulling in the same direction, performances will suffer. We've seen evidence of this in every England match in the touranment - insipid performances lacking confidence, both in themselves and in the system they're asked to play in.

Capello has failed to manage the team effectively, and the team has let Capello down by failing to perform for him.

[MarkBRFC71]

So because of the achievements of these great "experts", they can never be questioned? No matter what absolute idiocity they say, or no matter what idiotic formation they put out, they can never be wrong because they won titles with different teams in the past?

And yes. Anyone who believes Heskey is an international player, or that 4-5-1 isn't the right (only) formation for England, and that Robinson and Hart aren't much, much better than Green and James, and that Gerrard is not a left sided midfielder is stupid and talking nonesense. I am absolutely convinced in this and stand by every single word.

Most English fans knew exactly what was England's right formation and which players to play there. I am saying nothing out of the ordinary at all. A 10 year old kid on Football Manager can line up England in a more respectable formation. Which makes Capello's decisions all the more mindblowing.

You could line those players today up in any formation you want - and they would still have lost. They're simply not good enough. Every German player was better technically than his English counterpart, and at this level that counts for a lot. Looking good against Burnley does not instantly mean you will good against Germany.

In their club teams the foreign players cover for the England players lack of technique - and it's exposed badly at international level.