Second Round (Last 16) Discussion

[Mr. E]

and for the great Capello defenders on here - he is once again saying the team played good, "a little disappointing at times", and that the main reason England lost was due to the disallowed goal.

Defend that.

[Tim Southampton Rover]

To be fair to Capello, he probably doesn't know the English to express himself properly.

We could see on camera how mental he was going. Poor Stuart Pearce even looked scared.

[RibbleValleyRover]

and for the great Capello defenders on here - he is once again saying the team played good, "a little disappointing at times", and that the main reason England lost was due to the disallowed goal.

Defend that.

I think many aren't defending Capello here; the majority (myself included) just feel that the blame can't solely be put on him. Especially after several managers have failed with this current crop of players.

[MarkBRFC71]

So either they are not as good as we think

This is the problem. I think at club level their lack of technical ability is compensated for by being surrounded with foreigners who, let's be honest, all seem to be technically better than English players. Being athletic will only get you so far - having no players with any guile or nous will soon get exposed on the world stage.

[Rovermatt]

Scheinsteger wouldn't make the England team

This is the sort of arrogance that contributes to the royal mess after every England exit. Scwheinsteiger is an absolutely superb footballer and would happily make the England team. Not that he cares if he'd get on for England or not, he clearly plays for a better team.

Anyway, magnificent display from the Germans. Their defence is indeed shaky but they weathered England's late storm in the first half and rode their luck with respect to the disallowed goal (and what luck! One of the worst pieces of officiating I've ever seen!) The fears about England's lack of flexibility and ponderous defending were well founded as the Krauts simply picked their passes in midfield, playing between the English lines and hitting them with two absolute hammer-blows on the break. I was shocked at just how poorly England played (especially given Defoe's assertion over the last week that England's team is in fact 'great').

In spite of the disastrous display and result, I'm not entirely sure about where the blame rests. Capello is an outstanding coach and England's players are good but the age old inability to retain possession has come back to haunt England's players for yet another tournament.

Sven was much derided (rightly so I think) but at least his teams had some wherewithal. The nature of this defeat is quite startling.

[beerwins]

I have been looking for reason's why we just got beat like that and I cant believe I never noticed this before but when you look at this.....

England 1-1 USA

England 0-0 Algeria

England 1-0 Slovenia

England 1-4 Germany

The problem is that we are totally CRAP and I just had'nt realised this, these are the results of a very poor team and they speak for themselves.

[Bobby G]

Schweini not make the English team?

Oh yes, you got Gareth Barry "holding" the midfield and "stringing" the passes and "breaking" the play.

Like I said, its good that this "golden generation" is out of the window with their real worth shown up once again. Time for fresh blood and fresh impetus.

[Tim Southampton Rover]

No German player would make the English team because they aren't that ###### to play for England.

[broadsword]

Like I said, its good that this "golden generation" is out of the window with their real worth shown up once again.

Golden shower more like.

[Tim Southampton Rover]

Fools Gold

[DE.]

This is the sort of arrogance that contributes to the royal mess after every England exit. Scwheinsteiger is an absolutely superb footballer and would happily make the England team. Not that he cares if he'd get on for England or not, he clearly plays for a better team.

Aye, Scwheinsteiger would waltz into the England team without a second thought. Who's keeping him out? Gareth Barry? Michael Carrick??

[Mr. E]

there really is no point discussing "which players are better". New Zealand don't even have a football league, some of their players had to ask their bosses for time off work to play at the World Cup, yet they would have beaten the world champions if it wasn't for the Italians' dive. But despite all lack of talent, NZ played tactics that were maximized to bring the very best out of their team. Which contributed to the confidence and belief in their players. England did the opposite.

[Mr. E]

also how do people believe countries like Slovenia and Slovakia made it to this world cup? Or Greece won Euro 2004? because they have superstar players that no other countries can dream of having? No, it's because they played better tactics than Sweden, Turkey, Czech Republic etc. all the other "bigger" countries that failed.

Tactics are, by far and wide, the most important thing in football today. Tactics are 90% of your game.

[MarkBRFC71]

there really is no point discussing "which players are better". New Zealand don't even have a football league, some of their players had to ask their bosses for time off work to play at the World Cup, yet they would have beaten the world champions if it wasn't for the Italians' dive. But despite all lack of talent, NZ played tactics that were maximized to bring the very best out of their team. Which contributed to the confidence and belief in their players. England did the opposite.

Much more importantly, unlike ours NZ's players are not pampered overpaid nancyboys, whose every whim can be easily satiated by their huge wagepackets. Playing for England means little for them - hence why they played with no heart, desire or passion.

Capello isn't blameless in all this, but equally the players need to take a long, hard look at themselves.

When all's said and done, being top 16 is about right for these players - we're so far behind the likes of Spain, Argentina and Brazil it's embarrassing and as we've just discovered we're bloody miles behind Germany too.

Sky and our national media overhype the players - simple as.

[koi]

also how do people believe countries like Slovenia and Slovakia made it to this world cup? Or Greece won Euro 2004? because they have superstar players that no other countries can dream of having? No, it's because they played better tactics than Sweden, Turkey, Czech Republic etc. all the other "bigger" countries that failed.

Tactics are, by far and wide, the most important thing in football today. Tactics are 90% of your game.

Denmark winning the Euro's is another example.

[RoyRover]

This so called 'golden generation' has failed in numerous competitions in a row, so i don't think you can blame the manager this time. England need to scrap pretty much all of them even though some may have time on their side to play more tournaments, they just simply aren't good enough.

Germany could have easily had 7 or 8, 5 or 6 in the first half alone. I would take pretty much all of those German players over England ones.

THANK YOU.

Where was all this arrogance and expectation coming from that England would trounce the Germans? The Slovenia game? ...Really? England haven't been convincing throughout this tournament and somehow their superior experience and pedigree was expected to walk over this young German side. I'm really at a loss as to why people were suckered in by this. There's blind faith and then there's pure stupidity.

As for where the blame lies: manager or players, I'd say they've both contributed to England's downfall, but the final say always rest with the manager. His players, his tactics, his call.

I have been in agreement with a lot of what you guys have had to say about England throughout this tournament and I think today just goes to show what a mediocre side England are. I now hope that this idea that England are amongst the world's elite teams can be truly put to bed. There is a frustration that realistic people have about the most overrated team in world football and how sensible people can throw all their reasoning to one side when it comes to the England team.

The arrogance and disrespect shown towards other countries, especially with the age old argument of 'how many of their players would get onto the England team', is vomit-inducing and consistently comes up, no matter how badly England have played in the past. Despite how good Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, John Terry, Aaron Lennon or Gareth Barry are at club level, they aren't good enough when it comes to international football. They don't have the technique, the patience, the intelligence or the ability to play at that level. Pundits throw around the term 'world class' about this player and that player and if it is said often enough, people start to believe it. These players are fantastic whenever they are at their clubs and surrounded by foreigners who allow them to 'get stuck in' and 'play with passion'. Sadly these attributes aren't enough at international level and England get found out because of it. People are too quick to judge a team by star power, rather than their actual ability. I don't care how many TV ads the England players do or how much they make every week, the question that should be asked is not 'how many of their players would get into the England team, but how many of the England players would get into other top nations' sides' and the answer is not many. Why? Because they don't have the necessary skill sets to play to those teams' strengths and tactics.

Many of the less arrogantly presumptous England fans and pundits knew that if England came up against a decent side that they would struggle. I doubt however that they would have envisaged them struggling that badly. There is no doubt that there has been a huge degree of tactical ineptitude from Capello during this game and the World Cup, but there is no way that he was coaching his players to defend like they did today and play so poorly. This comes back to the players who just aren't good enough. At the last World Cup England were hopeless, the failed to qualify for the European Championships and this time round they've been rotten. Maybe they've just been extremely unlucky to have three managers who haven't been able to get the best out of them or maybe this 'golden generation' started to believe their own hype. They have never had to improve and have been left behind by better teams and players who don't share their celebrity lifestyle. I'd say many of the England players live in a bubble where they do whatever they want, are told how good they are and have bigger priorities than playing football for their country. This then leads to Jermaine Defoe believing England are a 'great side'. This then affects performances.

I feel sorry for the fans who have scrimped and saved for years to go and support their team and that is what they've been subjected to. No stone was left unturned apparently in the build up to this World Cup and it still hasn't been enough. They have been ultimately humiliated by the former Germany U21 team. This could be the wake-up call that English football needs to start accepting its place in the world order of things.

[1864roverite]

Lets just hope there isnt the same kind of reaction like we have seen in other countires when players have been poor on the field.

Remember the South American team/player ?

[rebelmswar]

Lets just hope there isnt the same kind of reaction like we have seen in other countires when players have been poor on the field.

Remember the South American team/player ?

Columbian player after US 94 right?

Scored an own goal against the US.

[broadsword]

Escobar?

[Roberto Policano]

This is the problem. I think at club level their lack of technical ability is compensated for by being surrounded with foreigners who, let's be honest, all seem to be technically better than English players. Being athletic will only get you so far - having no players with any guile or nous will soon get exposed on the world stage.

Agree totally mate.

Having the 2 most overated full backs in the world in the side does'nt help your cause either.

You need to find some full backs who can actually defend.

Ashley Cole doesn't get tested at Premier League level because most of the teams are frightened of Chelsea,most games he has nothing to do and looks good because of that,at worldclass level he gets found out because of that.

[broadsword]

Who else could we play at left back?

[Amo]

You need to find some full backs who can actually defend.

Ashley Cole doesn't get tested at Premier League level because most of the teams are frightened of Chelsea,most games he has nothing to do and looks good because of that,at worldclass level he gets found out because of that.

And he's a Grade-A Pillock.

[rebelmswar]

Who else could we play at left back?

Warncock?

And I believe that you are correct about the unfortunate Columbian.

[DE.]

I think that technically the England players are fine. Their issue isn't their technical skills but their team-play at international level. The team seems to have no understanding, the players either didn't understand or didn't want to conform to the system Fabio Capello wanted to use in this tournament. As a result when players got the ball they tended to take too many touches because they don't know where their team-mates are going to be. There's no quick, defence splitting passes or fantastic link-ups because the players don't seem to know how they want to play.

Gerrard is a perfect example - shunted out to the left, yet he keeps drifting inside. Do his team-mates know where he's going to be when they get the ball? Will he be out on the left, or will he have drifted into the centre again? Unless they instinctively know the likely answer you'll never get quick football.

Admittedly, some of the players - Heskey, Terry, Barry - aren't particularly technically proficient, but the majority of the squad does have the technical skill to raise their game to a far higher level than we've seen in this tournament. For whatever reason, the players haven't taken to the system at all and as a result have looked like bumbling, clumsy, creatively-void oafs for much of the tournament.

[American]

Lets just hope there isnt the same kind of reaction like we have seen in other countires when players have been poor on the field.

Remember the South American team/player ?

He was shot for banging the wrong guy's girlfriend, not for the own goal.