[Archived] Football Hooligans

[Iceman]

Ive just watched the Discovery channel, and came across football hooligans. Wow, i never knew how crazy it was/is. Can somebody shed some more light on this, who are the most dangerous football hooligans? The ones they spoke to were ICF, Zulus, Red Army, Suicide squad

& land the ones from Birmingham and Millwall. Do we have a group of Hooligans, that went up against the Burnley suicide squad?

Have things improved, or are there still huge clashes these days?

[Tim Southampton Rover]

Hooligan firms still exist but fighting in grounds is pretty rare compared to a few decades ago when it was common for fights to take place. It probably happens a lot more at smaller grounds because police presence is a lot less whereas it's a rarity in the Premier League because of police, segregation etc. Also due to the amount of CCTV in Britain these days, if you get caught on camera causing trouble then you'll end up infront of the courts so it's a lot harder for hooligans to get away with it. This means fights can be pre-arranged outside the cities.

Obviously during tense fixtures between local rivals you tend to get trouble but these days the police and the clubs involved tend to try and avoid this by restricting ticket sales, travel arrangements via official travel coach only (as seen between Burnley & Blackburn last season) but this doesn't always stop fights happening elsewhere.

Living in Southampton I can't really tell you what it's like in Blackburn but when Southampton and Portsmouth play each other in the South Coast Derby it always kicks off before and after the match despite hundreds of police everywhere. Here's a pretty good article on the Southampton/Pompey rivalry which is quite an interesting read.

Southampton/Portsmouth - South Coast Derby

[Iceman]

I just found it very interesting, and it seemed like these guys were not at all bothered about police, or getting into trouble.

[Tim Southampton Rover]

There are quite a few football hooligan films out there you could watch which would give you some idea what it was like in England from the past to the present.

Films I'd recommend are:

The Firm (1988) feat. Gary Oldman is about football hooliganism in the 80s. There's another film called 'The Firm' which was made recently and I think someone on here starred as an extra

ID (1995) feat. Reece Dinsdale is about an undercover cop who is trying to expose a hooligan firm but gets caught up in the hooligan lifestyle.

The Football Factory (2004) feat. Danny Dyer is about the culture of football firms in the modern day.

[gumboots]

I just found it very interesting, and it seemed like these guys were not at all bothered about police, or getting into trouble.

When I first started going to matches back in the late 60s it was a dangerous thing to do. Open terracing made fights more likely because there was no segregation of fans and the crowd was in a constant state of movement up and down. As goals were scored the crowd surged forward and often there would be people down on the ground, carried away by the crowd. As a teenage girl I always made sure I was in front of one of the barriers to be able to stay in place, althuogh a friend's brother did get is leg broken when one of the concrete barriers broke.

Fights - it was the era of the Bootboys, who wore steel capped bovver boots - happened at least once or twice a match in some part of the ground and generally more often than that. Nowadays I've let my girls travel to any ground in the country on their own and never really worried. There's very little goes on at premier league grounds nowadays

[Roversider]

I think it is positive that someone has to ask about a Blackburn 'Firm'. The fact that they have dropped beyond the radar is a good thing.

My experiences watching Rovers home and away through the 70s and 80s was in retrospect interesting but a big reason why attendances dropped dramatically. Did Rovers have a 'Firm', the chants of 'Youth, Youth' at the latest confrontation with Burnley morons in Mill Hill last season shows there are some memories. I have seen cutthroat razors used (by a Rochdale fan on a Rovers fan), fans kicked senseless, police battering anyone around (usually not the culprits) and deaths (Carlisle fan killed by a Rovers yob). Stabbings did occur, darts and coins frequently hurtled through the air where there was joint terracing (e.g. Blackpool on the Kop).

Luckily there was a concerted effort to see them off and long sentences were imposed. Hillsborough and the 96 deaths that happened can be linked via fencing (in response to pitch invasions) directly to hooliganism.

Don't ever think it was romantic as has been portrayed by many ex-hooligans who have discovered there is money to be made in writing books. Yes, there was adrenalin, but it was sordid, lots of fear and tribal to a level few who have been brought up in the Premiership years can even imagine. I hope it stays that way and that if anyone needs to get adrenalin rushes that football violence is pushed to one side and extreme sports adopted.

Finally, don't believe a word of the bravado these 'firms' come out with, most of it is from their own productive imagination. Falstaff was more truthful in Harry IV.

[Sparky Marky]

When we went away to Citeh at Maine Road, they used to put you along the side of the pitch with just a fence separating the rival fans...no stewards or police or anything like that......people would be climbing over all through the game for a fight...both sides...mental...real scary...That ground was rough...even getting away from the stadium was really dodgy...

[47er]

I think it is positive that someone has to ask about a Blackburn 'Firm'. The fact that they have dropped beyond the radar is a good thing.

My experiences watching Rovers home and away through the 70s and 80s was in retrospect interesting but a big reason why attendances dropped dramatically. Did Rovers have a 'Firm', the chants of 'Youth, Youth' at the latest confrontation with Burnley morons in Mill Hill last season shows there are some memories. I have seen cutthroat razors used (by a Rochdale fan on a Rovers fan), fans kicked senseless, police battering anyone around (usually not the culprits) and deaths (Carlisle fan killed by a Rovers yob). Stabbings did occur, darts and coins frequently hurtled through the air where there was joint terracing (e.g. Blackpool on the Kop).

Luckily there was a concerted effort to see them off and long sentences were imposed. Hillsborough and the 96 deaths that happened can be linked via fencing (in response to pitch invasions) directly to hooliganism.

Don't ever think it was romantic as has been portrayed by many ex-hooligans who have discovered there is money to be made in writing books. Yes, there was adrenalin, but it was sordid, lots of fear and tribal to a level few who have been brought up in the Premiership years can even imagine. I hope it stays that way and that if anyone needs to get adrenalin rushes that football violence is pushed to one side and extreme sports adopted.

Finally, don't believe a word of the bravado these 'firms' come out with, most of it is from their own productive imagination. Falstaff was more truthful in Harry IV.

We've still got a firm. They specialise in getting drunk, shouting obscenities and generally giving us a sink estate image.

[Roversider]

We've still got a firm. They specialise in getting drunk, shouting obscenities and generally giving us a sink estate image.

Some 'firm'! Pathetic crew in my opinion and they do tarnish our image, partcularly away from home. Seem to be made up of pre-pubescent teens and a few retarded 40 year olds.

[Montfort]

Some 'firm'! Pathetic crew in my opinion and they do tarnish our image, partcularly away from home. Seem to be made up of pre-pubescent teens and a few retarded 40 year olds.

I agree. Some "fans" dont seem to know the difference between friendly banter and obnoxious behaviour. Often what is happening on the pitch seems to be of secondary importance. But I also agree it is nothing like it use to be. I would not / could not have taken my young son and daughter to football matches if this had been the case

[john.leigh]

Rovers firm was/is the Blackburn Youth.

Never big trouble makers but could look after themselves.

Was also a smaller mob from around the hospital area called themselves the ICU - Intensive Care Unit.

The Youth also had a presence at New Order gigs - They 'represented' Blackburn there as well...

I remember a game when the Rovers lot 'took' Chelsea in the Darwen End. It was weird to watch - about 15 minutes before the end of the game the Blackburn End started emptying. The club used to open the gates 15 minutes before the end so people could slope off - the Rovers hooligans took advantage of this to get in the Darwen End & launched a surprise attack on the Chelsea mob.

A bit underhand maybe but this was only applying Chelseas own style of 'warfare' against them. Don't feel any sorrow for Chelsea before their current glamour image they were one of the very worst behaved set of idiots - their own chairman Ken Bates proposed electrified fences to stop the hooligans from scaling them!

The following season Chelsea brought bigger, more violent, numbers up and they all sat in the Blackburn End end of the old Nuttall Street stand.

The Chelsea mob then poured out of the front of the stand and ran the Blackburn End - people were trying to climb over the fence that separated the Blackburn End from The Riverside to escape!

I also recall that in the late 80's we had to play an opening day game at Chelsea behind closed doors as they had rioted during their final game of the preceding season - think we won & Howard Gayle scored but other than that my memory fades!!

Like I said the Rovers mob were handy, but I think really we were just 'playing at it' compared to some of the city clubs.

[john.leigh]

Change of subject slightly...

In Australia in all sports there is no crowd segregation. People just sit pretty much wherever they wantand you genuinely do get fans from both teams scattered throughout the stadium - whether it be football, rugby league or rugby union and this goes for international games, inter-state games and club matches

I've never been to an Aussie rules game (AFL) and wouldn't if you paid me - so maybe I can't really comment on them BUT

in all the other sports Australian support for their teams is just pitiful & i'm convinced this is because there is no segregation.

The plus side is that there's no hooliganism but as a spectacle the games are just so devoid passion that they are limp & lifeless - a classic example of the team having to lift the supporters every week!!

I think that the way things are now in the Premiership seems to have just go the balance right - you still get a tingle at the back of the next when the atmosphere is buzzing but generally the actual real threat of the bad old days has now largely disappeared.

Australia have bid for one of the future World Cups - god help them if they got it -I really don't think they wold be prepared for the depth of feeling that this game can generate.

Everybody told me you have to see a State of Origin game to feel the real passion of Aussie sport & while 52,000 people in a ground has it's own vibe I've felt more passion in a Div 3 game watching us get promoted at Bury!!

[Iceman]

is the Burnley Suicide squad still active?

[john.leigh]

is the Burnley Suicide squad still active?

I believe so - & I think they're quite proud of it as well...

I was working for an employer based in bumley when a Notts Forest fan got killed walking down the main shopping street.

it was lunch time pre-game when a bunch of idiots rushed out of a pub & jumped a guy on his own & killed him.

Dingles - never liked 'em before & can't see my opinion ever changing.

[67splitscreen]

A topic on the subject has been running for a couple of weeks here

[Ossydave]

I believe so - & I think they're quite proud of it as well...

I was working for an employer based in bumley when a Notts Forest fan got killed walking down the main shopping street.

it was lunch time pre-game when a bunch of idiots rushed out of a pub & jumped a guy on his own & killed him.

Dingles - never liked 'em before & can't see my opinion ever changing.

What a complete and utter load of tosh you're talking there.

[Ozz]

The Chelsea mob then poured out of the front of the stand and ran the Blackburn End - people were trying to climb over the fence that separated the Blackburn End from The Riverside to escape!

I was there.

[Iceman]

i was talking to the missus, while watching the programme last night on Hooliginism. The one thing both agreed on, was that it looks like its a proper gang, hiding behind football and using it as a cover up to promote violence. It was a very interesting programme, and the guys being interviewed were so proud of their actions.

[Ozz]

And I was there too.

An earlier thread with many tales of violence.

[LDRover]

I believe so - & I think they're quite proud of it as well...

I was working for an employer based in bumley when a Notts Forest fan got killed walking down the main shopping street.

it was lunch time pre-game when a bunch of idiots rushed out of a pub & jumped a guy on his own & killed him.

Dingles - never liked 'em before & can't see my opinion ever changing.

I seem to remember the Forest lad was hit by a pint glass thrown by a Dingle (young lad from Haslingden IIRC). The lad who died was there for the ruck though, he was in the middle of a mob of Forest fans whan he was hit.

Not that he deserved to die mind you.

[AggyBlue]

I was there.

I was in the enclosure.

There was only a few Chelsea fans that climbed the fence into the BBE from there and they were unexpected as they were in their forties.

Most entered through the turnstiles.

I can't recall any coming down from the stand that game. I know my memories not the best and seasons get blurred into one another but wasn't the John Lewis complex there?

[john.leigh]

What a complete and utter load of tosh you're talking there.

Tosh - yeah right

On 7 December 2002 a 17 year old Nottingham Forest F.C. fan was killed when Burnley fans attacked Nottingham Forest fans in Burnley town centre. Two days later a 19 year old Burnley fan, Andrew McNee, a member of the so called Suicide Youth Squad[5] was arrested and charged with murder.[6] In July 2003, McNee was sentenced to seven years in youth custody after he pleaded guilty to manslaughter. He was also banned from football matches for ten years. When passing sentence, the trial judge commented that the attack had happened, "for absolutely no reason, other than he supported a different football team and had the temerity to visit a public house the defendant and others believed he should have kept away from"; adding that football hooliganism was a "scourge on the sport" and said the courts should make it clear that anyone involved in violence would face harsh sentences.[7] McNee was released from prison in 2006. Within weeks though he was fined £200 after pleading guilty to breaching his ten year football banning order. On 22 July 2006 police caught him outside Turf Moor when Burnley were playing Bolton Wanderers F.C.[8], Burnleys first home game since McNee had been released from prison. [5],

Sorry mate - my mistake - must never have happened eh?

Must have been my eyes deceiving me when the memorials were placed outside the pub?

What a chump I am!!

[Ossydave]

Tosh - yeah right

On 7 December 2002 a 17 year old Nottingham Forest F.C. fan was killed when Burnley fans attacked Nottingham Forest fans in Burnley town centre. Two days later a 19 year old Burnley fan, Andrew McNee, a member of the so called Suicide Youth Squad[5] was arrested and charged with murder.[6] In July 2003, McNee was sentenced to seven years in youth custody after he pleaded guilty to manslaughter. He was also banned from football matches for ten years. When passing sentence, the trial judge commented that the attack had happened, "for absolutely no reason, other than he supported a different football team and had the temerity to visit a public house the defendant and others believed he should have kept away from"; adding that football hooliganism was a "scourge on the sport" and said the courts should make it clear that anyone involved in violence would face harsh sentences.[7] McNee was released from prison in 2006. Within weeks though he was fined £200 after pleading guilty to breaching his ten year football banning order. On 22 July 2006 police caught him outside Turf Moor when Burnley were playing Bolton Wanderers F.C.[8], Burnleys first home game since McNee had been released from prison. [5],

Sorry mate - my mistake - must never have happened eh?

Must have been my eyes deceiving me when the memorials were placed outside the pub?

What a chump I am!!

My point was that some lone Forest fan wasn't attacked as he casually walked by minding his own business, he went looking for 'it' with his mates and got more than he bargained for.

[john.leigh]

I was in the enclosure.

There was only a few Chelsea fans that climbed the fence into the BBE from there and they were unexpected as they were in their forties.

Most entered through the turnstiles.

I can't recall any coming down from the stand that game. I know my memories not the best and seasons get blurred into one another but wasn't the John Lewis complex there?

I was stood in the enclosure with my dad, that's how young I was.

I don't think the John Lewis complex was there then, but that only came up to where the bend was in the stand anyway.

You're right most did come through the turnstiles, but some did come from the stand - my bizarre memory is of some of them wearing the current fashion craze deely-boppers with swastikas on the end of the springs!

I also remember them singing a song about "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz, Hitlers gonna gas 'em again"

As a little kid it made an impact on me - some of the memories might be blurred but some small details are crystal clear.

And your right about the age of them, which makes me think that these must be the real 'hard core' not just kids doing it on a whim.

It was obviously an orchestrated 'revenge' attack - just glad those days are gone now.

My point was that some lone Forest fan wasn't attacked as he casually walked by minding his own business, he went looking for 'it' with his mates and got more than he bargained for.

What a complete and utter load of tosh you're talking there.

[alexanders]

As you mention Hitler and Swaztikas I guess the elements of racism, nazism(?) and Hooliganism had a strong connection with each others.

In the 70's and 80's there were more poor people, higher unemployment and a rising displeasure against the society which sadly very often is connected with growing immigration and the perception of "them stealing our jobs".

It is a sad part of the history, but it is important to talk about it as we seem to learn from the history to not commit the same failures over and over again.

In the sociological way of things there is very often a collection of what you may refer to as "losers" who find each others in these type of groups, ie why Hooliganism sprad via elements like racism. It was an effective way to recruit other idiots.