[Archived] Britains Fund the Taliban claims Taliban Commander

[Flopsy]

Jisty I can't disprove that there is a supernatural being called God that exists out there in the universe somewhere, it's a big place so laws of probability kick in, but I'm pretty certain that the god mentioned in your bronze age based religions does not exist. They are in fact stories made to explain phenomenon that occured that they could not understand.

Earthquakes? Must be god. Disease? Must be god? Why are we here? Must be god. Now we know different

Why are there earthquakes? Movements of tectonic plates due to continental drift. Diseases? Small micro organisms. Why are we here? Because evolution kicked in & organisms adapted to fill niches.

Want to throw questions around? If we follow Genesis, why did humanity not die out due to inbreeding, as there was only Adam and Eve.

Who did Cain & Abel marry?

If Genisis is folklore, what does that say about the rest of the bible?

[thenodrog]

I'll happily take bring called ignorant. There are a great many things I don't understand.

As for middle ground, how about God and science could co-exist?

Still more scoffing though. You lot won't believe there is a God unless it is proven to you. I won't believe there isn't one unless it is proven to me.

Lots of things that I don't understand too Jisty. I've thought about this for many years now. How can life suddenly appear on a cooling but sterile planet orbitting in endless and similarly sterile vacuum a Sun 90m miles away with the nearest planet 30m miles away? imo there is no God of course but there must have been a creator somewhere, somehow, sometime. The religious opinion is a supreme celestial being (although versions do differ wildy), the scientific opinion when I was at school tells me that the creation of life on the planet was down to the amino acid / lightning theory but applying the simplest logic heavily favours a mixture of the two....the alien spacemans turd! Now if people who need a spiritual crutch through life want to worship that then so be it.... It might not look too good on the alter (graven image and all that jazz) but it certainly goes a long way toward explaining all the sh1t that goes on around the world in the name of religion.

Here endeth the lesson.

[SouthAussieRover]

Lots of things that I don't understand too Jisty. I've thought about this for many years now. How can life suddenly appear on a cooling but sterile planet orbitting in endless and similarly sterile vacuum a Sun 90m miles away with the nearest planet 30m miles away? imo there is no God of course but there must have been a creator somewhere, somehow, sometime. The religious opinion is a supreme celestial being (although versions do differ wildy), the scientific opinion when I was at school tells me that the creation of life on the planet was down to the amino acid / lightning theory but applying the simplest logic heavily favours a mixture of the two....the alien spacemans turd! Now if people who need a spiritual crutch through life want to worship that then so be it.... It might not look too good on the alter (graven image and all that jazz) but it certainly goes a long way toward explaining all the sh1t that goes on around the world in the name of religion.

Here endeth the lesson.

That's why i don't contribute to the collection plate whenever i visit a church.

It just goes towards the furthering of strange ideas.

[thenodrog]

That's why i don't contribute to the collection plate whenever i visit a church.

It just goes towards the furthering of strange ideas.

You never really did do comedy did you SAR? You couldn't quite get the hang of it.

[DE.]

I'll happily take bring called ignorant. There are a great many things I don't understand. The scientology thing was a throw away comment and a bit of a play on words but, in the UK at least, it does not qualify as a religion so does that make it a science?

As for middle ground, how about God and science could co-exist?

Still more scoffing though. You lot won't believe there is a God unless it is proven to you. I won't believe there isn't one unless it is proven to me.

Unless someone has a go at my original question, I'll leave it there.

Jisty, whilst I respect your right to believe in whatever you choose, the onus is always on the person who is trying to prove something exists to provide evidence, not the other way round. It isn't really logical to reverse it. See the article below.

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/07/07/if-you-cant-prove-god-doesnt-exist-why-not-believe/

[SouthAussieRover]

You never really did do comedy did you SAR? You couldn't quite get the hang of it.

Well I laugh at you rather than with you.

[neekoy]

I'll happily take bring called ignorant. There are a great many things I don't understand. The scientology thing was a throw away comment and a bit of a play on words but, in the UK at least, it does not qualify as a religion so does that make it a science?

As for middle ground, how about God and science could co-exist?

Still more scoffing though. You lot won't believe there is a God unless it is proven to you. I won't believe there isn't one unless it is proven to me.

Unless someone has a go at my original question, I'll leave it there.

Well I said you post was ignorant, not you. The scientology comment may have been throw away but you think because it is a "religion" it is a science? Odd, how about we just put it under the big umbrella and class it as a cult like all religions, belief systems, voodoo and childrens magic?

How can GOD and science possibly co-exist? We keep believing in each aspect of GOD until science proves otherwise, one by one by one? Cover all bases perhaps?

You asked a number of questions but I will assume you are asking, how do we live together?

Easy, all cults are completely annihilated, every statue, every icon, every literary reference, all the trillions of dollars are returned into humanity in a massive act of charity and over a period of a couple of decades we slowly make it dissapear from the mindset of every homosapien.

We can then ensure every mind is completly free from the binds of this kind of cultish behaviour and get down to solving lifes riddles, get a million people working on diseases, get another million exploring the ancient depths of our oceans, another million to get into what is smaller then a quark and so on and so on for generations until it is our time to become extinct.

How about that for a solution?

[Stuart]

Flopsy, I'll happily accept that most biblical stories are just that stories. Ways of interpreting things and putting it into the context of when it was written. Dare I say using the science of the day? (No, I'd better retract that quickly). Metaphors? Could the 7 Days business be a metaphor for the evolution over time? It strikes me fairly logical that everyone should be able to be traced back to two human beings. Perhaps Adam and Eve represent the first two beings actually both classified as human? A good deal of what is in the Bible could well be propaganda - and probably is - after all it was written by human beings. (Presumably!)

Lots of things that I don't understand too Jisty. I've thought about this for many years now. How can life suddenly appear on a cooling but sterile planet orbitting in endless and similarly sterile vacuum a Sun 90m miles away with the nearest planet 30m miles away? imo there is no God of course but there must have been a creator somewhere, somehow, sometime. The religious opinion is a supreme celestial being (although versions do differ wildy), the scientific opinion when I was at school tells me that the creation of life on the planet was down to the amino acid / lightning theory but applying the simplest logic heavily favours a mixture of the two....the alien spacemans turd! Now if people who need a spiritual crutch through life want to worship that then so be it.... It might not look too good on the alter (graven image and all that jazz) but it certainly goes a long way toward explaining all the sh1t that goes on around the world in the name of religion.

Here endeth the lesson.

The bit in bold is interesting. So a creator but not a God? Semantics? Or is there a definite difference?

Jisty, whilst I respect your right to believe in whatever you choose, the onus is always on the person who is trying to prove something exists to provide evidence, not the other way round. It isn't really logical to reverse it. See the article below.

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/07/07/if-you-cant-prove-god-doesnt-exist-why-not-believe/

I don't have to prove anything because this is a personal choice. But my point here is that it can't be proven either way. It's an act of faith which ever side of the fence you fall on and neither can be absolutely sure that the other side is right or wrong.

Well I said you post was ignorant, not you. The scientology comment may have been throw away but you think because it is a "religion" it is a science? Odd, how about we just put it under the big umbrella and class it as a cult like all religions, belief systems, voodoo and childrens magic?

How can GOD and science possibly co-exist? We keep believing in each aspect of GOD until science proves otherwise, one by one by one? Cover all bases perhaps?

You asked a number of questions but I will assume you are asking, how do we live together?

Easy, all cults are completely annihilated, every statue, every icon, every literary reference, all the trillions of dollars are returned into humanity in a massive act of charity and over a period of a couple of decades we slowly make it dissapear from the mindset of every homosapien.

We can then ensure every mind is completly free from the binds of this kind of cultish behaviour and get down to solving lifes riddles, get a million people working on diseases, get another million exploring the ancient depths of our oceans, another million to get into what is smaller then a quark and so on and so on for generations until it is our time to become extinct.

How about that for a solution?

How about a realistic solution then? Like perhaps allowing discussions about racial issues to be discussed openly between different groups rather than avoided at all costs? Seems much easier idea to me. Yet in practice it seems just as hair-brained as your scheme!

I once watched a series of Youtube videos where two opposite parties in the racial divide had a civilised debate. The discussion turned toward Judaism and the videos were promptly removed - well one half of the debate was removed. You can guess which half. And it wasn't just the offending videos, it was every single video for the whole exchange. What was left was just one half of the argument.

It's like removing everyone one of Cletus' posts from this thread but leaving the responses untouched.

[neekoy]

Racial issues or religious issues? This is the major problem with this whole thing, those on the religious side of the fence believe there is a counter point to debate, the reason we don't discuss it because even if I had 90% of all answers you needed through scientific proof (which is actually pretty close) the questions I couldn't answer, how did the central nervous system evolve, what is conciousness etc, I say we don;t know yet, but we will, you say well until then I will just have faith GOD created it.

How can I possible convince you that your "faith" is misguided? It is like someone trying to convince me to stop following Blackburn Rovers, soon enough there would be have to be so much proof to prove why I shouldn't follow them that I would have to open my mind and acceopt it for whatever reason.

When it comes to science v religion, that time is now (well actually from 1859)

[Stuart]

Racial issues or religious issues? This is the major problem with this whole thing, those on the religious side of the fence believe there is a counter point to debate, the reason we don't discuss it because even if I had 90% of all answers you needed through scientific proof (which is actually pretty close) the questions I couldn't answer, how did the central nervous system evolve, what is conciousness etc, I say we don;t know yet, but we will, you say well until then I will just have faith GOD created it.

How can I possible convince you that your "faith" is misguided? It is like someone trying to convince me to stop following Blackburn Rovers, soon enough there would be have to be so much proof to prove why I shouldn't follow them that I would have to open my mind and acceopt it for whatever reason.

When it comes to science v religion, that time is now (well actually from 1859)

But would you stop following Rovers...?

Racial issues or religious issue? That's a really interesting point which I genuinely need to give more thought to.

Regarding misguided faith. Isn't there an element of faith in science? I.e. The faith in first principles upon which lots of other theories fundamentally hinge? Faith that the pool size for testing was large enough? Faith that assumptions which fill in the gaps are sound? Perhaps slightly mischievously, I can see an argument to describe science as a religion!

[broadsword]

Isn't there an internet theory somewhere that says he who asserts that science is a religion loses the argument?

"Pool size" -- you mean sample size I think. That's statistics, the science of modelling events to improve the chance of making the correct decision. It deals with the uncertainty of real life, so there will always be assumptions made. You then calculate the probability of those assumptions being correct, all else being equal.

Science deals with things that are measureable, observable, and can be tested, and models them. You don't need "faith" for it.

The hypothesis that God exists is an act of faith. It can't be proved because proof denies faith.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

[thenodrog]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

Some might say that the condition and suffering of poor Stephen Hawkins is proof enough that God does not exist.

[neekoy]

But would you stop following Rovers...?

Racial issues or religious issue? That's a really interesting point which I genuinely need to give more thought to.

Regarding misguided faith. Isn't there an element of faith in science? I.e. The faith in first principles upon which lots of other theories fundamentally hinge? Faith that the pool size for testing was large enough? Faith that assumptions which fill in the gaps are sound? Perhaps slightly mischievously, I can see an argument to describe science as a religion!

Well it depends on the evidence surely? What would make me stop following Rovers? Well if they told me that there was once a man named Simon Garner that was the greatest forward to ever play the game and the fact we watch football now is due to his talents but couldn't show me any footage, documentation or proof that this guy existed? I would probably start to lose faith that he existed at all.

Show me 194 goals though and Simon be praised.

[Stuart]

Isn't there an internet theory somewhere that says he who asserts that science is a religion loses the argument?

"Pool size" -- you mean sample size I think. That's statistics, the science of modelling events to improve the chance of making the correct decision. It deals with the uncertainty of real life, so there will always be assumptions made. You then calculate the probability of those assumptions being correct, all else being equal.

Science deals with things that are measureable, observable, and can be tested, and models them. You don't need "faith" for it.

The hypothesis that God exists is an act of faith. It can't be proved because proof denies faith.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

Assume, verb: "1. to take for granted or without proof"

It must be true, it's on the internet.

[broadsword]

It tests the likelihood of the assumptions stated in a particular experiment (and the experiment is a test of the assumptions ...), there are no assumptions underpinning the theory itself.

[cletus]

Once did a couple of weeks work at a huge building in Lancaster, I think it was some old institute that had been bought as a school for Pakistani girls, The school was more of a finishing school and some of the things taught to the girls I found amazing.

They were not allowed to speak to us, look at us, they had to cross over the road if they were on the same side as us, basically is made me feel a bit angry, I mean I am not racist in the slightest as I had plenty of Pakistani friends at school and still have now but there I was fixing pipes that they had broken and being made to feel like I didnt belong there.

I learnt a lot in those 2 weeks and it certainly opened my eyes as to where the main problems of segregation comes from.

.

I used to pick up an muslim asian girl in my taxi & take her to an all girl muslim school on Bicknell St, up Whalley Range in Blackburn. It was a regular job. One day whilst stuck in traffic i asked the girl if her school was a private one. She said 'no it was a public school'.

so i cheekily asked if i could send my daughter there? (i don`t have a daughter btw)

The girl looked at me like i was on another planet & said abruptly "not if she`s not muslim!"

I just smiled & said "oh, i thought anyone could go there seeing as it was a public school"

After that conversation the girl made it perfectly clear through her actions she wouldn`t be talking during any more taxi journeys. Not even a "good morning/good afternoon" or a "thankyou". She also took to slamming the car door at every opportunity.

I`ve since asked my boss not to ask me to pick her up any more, as i would refuse to do the job.

[JohnD]

I'm not sure how relevant this is but..........

I recently drove past Pleckgate school (I see it's changed name) as the pupils were leaving. They seemed to be mainly female and mainly of Asian background. They were dressed in full school uniform including long trousers. A tiny majority wore head scarves. They looked smart and were a credit to both their school and town.

Across the road there were two white girls both vastly overweight, morbidly obese they call it, both wearing as few clothes as possible. They looked a disgrace, I have no idea how any parent could let them go out like that.

It was quite clear to me which "race" was ruining my home town and it was exactly the same when I lived there.

[SouthAussieRover]

I used to pick up an muslim asian girl in my taxi & take her to an all girl muslim school on Bicknell St, up Whalley Range in Blackburn. It was a regular job. One day whilst stuck in traffic i asked the girl if her school was a private one. She said 'no it was a public school'.

so i cheekily asked if i could send my daughter there? (i don`t have a daughter btw)

The girl looked at me like i was on another planet & said abruptly "not if she`s not muslim!"

I just smiled & said "oh, i thought anyone could go there seeing as it was a public school"

After that conversation the girl made it perfectly clear through her actions she wouldn`t be talking during any more taxi journeys. Not even a "good morning/good afternoon" or a "thankyou". She also took to slamming the car door at every opportunity.

I`ve since asked my boss not to ask me to pick her up any more, as i would refuse to do the job.

I think this says a whole lot more about you than the child involved.

Should you really be working with members of the public?

[cletus]

I think this says a whole lot more about you than the child involved.

Should you really be working with members of the public?

Does it really SAR? May i ask why?

You obviously don`t know me. I probably do 25-30 jobs a day, that`s 150-180 a week, that`s 7200-8640 jobs a year & i`ve never had a single complaint. Infact i`m probably one of the more helpful taxi drivers you could wish to meet. I help old ladies with their shopping. I help countless wheelchair users (many taxi drivers don`t 'do' wheelchair users...it`s too much hassle) I`ve even wheeled an elderly bloke who`d had a stroke around Morrisons for half an hour, because i saw him struggling with his wheelchair (he only had use of one arm)

.....& i don`t over charge

[SouthAussieRover]

Does it really SAR? May i ask why?

You obviously don`t know me. I probably do 25-30 jobs a day, that`s 150-180 a week, that`s 7200-8640 jobs a year & i`ve never had a single complaint. Infact i`m probably one of the more helpful taxi drivers you could wish to meet. I help old ladies with their shopping. I help countless wheelchair users (many taxi drivers don`t 'do' wheelchair users...it`s too much hassle) I`ve even wheeled an elderly bloke who`d had a stroke around Morrisons for half an hour, because i saw him struggling with his wheelchair (he only had use of one arm)

.....& i don`t over charge

DO any of them that you help also happen to be of muslim and asian appearance?

How did you expect a young girl to react ...answer back...tell you to mind your own fecking business?? She chose the wisest thing to do in ignoring you.

Oh and if you happened to have a teenage daughter, you'd know that door slamming is part of their repetoire

[cletus]

DO any of them that you help also happen to be of muslim and asian appearance?

How did you expect a young girl to react ...answer back...tell you to mind your own fecking business?? She chose the wisest thing to do in ignoring you.

Oh and if you happened to have a teenage daughter, you'd know that door slamming is part of their repetoire

Admittedly, not many of my customers are asian. They tend to use their own taxi firms. You should watch the Panorama youtube links further back in the thread, to actually see what it`s like in both parts of Blackburn. I do get the occasional asian customer though.

Granted, i was being a bit naughty in asking her about her school. I knew any non-muslim kid wouldn`t be allowed into her school, because they are even more racist than almost every other religion. 'Infidels' is the word they use for non-muslims. What`s strange about it is every other school, C of E & Catholic HAVE to accept muslim kids......or they`d get done for racism. Obviously the girl in my car was pretty bright & knew what i was getting at. Racism or religionism works both ways....

Oh, & you don`t have to lecture me about teenagers. I used to be one......but i had manners.

[Mattyblue]

I'm not sure how relevant this is but..........

I recently drove past Pleckgate school (I see it's changed name) as the pupils were leaving. They seemed to be mainly female and mainly of Asian background. They were dressed in full school uniform including long trousers. A tiny majority wore head scarves. They looked smart and were a credit to both their school and town.

Across the road there were two white girls both vastly overweight, morbidly obese they call it, both wearing as few clothes as possible. They looked a disgrace, I have no idea how any parent could let them go out like that.

It was quite clear to me which "race" was ruining my home town and it was exactly the same when I lived there.

total nonsense statement.

Blackburn is now quickly heading to a 50/50 Muslim/non muslim split, the primary School population now has a comfortable Muslim majority, the professional white class of Blackburn have left the town in their droves over a generation- and continue to do so. Blackburn's population circa 1960- 100,000, Today: 100,000. As the Muslim popluation has grown rapidly, the white popluation has left equally rapidly.

Therefore the 'obese' girls you mention are a symptom of blackburn's new demographic makeup:

Muslim community

Those of a lower class white background

The elderly

Fast diminishing professional non Muslim population.

I do notice that Blackburn residents have many more issues with Islam than those that a) have never lived here and b have long since departed.

But of course, present day Blackburn residents that have the audacity to question Islam and the effect it has had on the town are sneered at as 'bigots' or 'ignorant' while those miles away crow about multiculturalism and how wonderful it is, who is actually ignorant seems clear to me.

The colour of someones skin does not matter at all, Britain has been a country of different races and nationalties for hundreds of years, however Islam is a different proposition.

Islam has not been beneficial to Blackburn- this is not the fault of the Muslim community, it is not the fault of the non Muslim population, just a fact of life of two wildly contrasting cultures that have become more and more polarised. Unfortunately the white popluation have largely given up on the town. The dream of the social enginners to have two distinct communities living different but connected lives has been proven to be a total folly.

[92er]

.

Granted, i was being a bit naughty in asking her about her school. I knew any non-muslim kid wouldn`t be allowed into her school, because they are even more racist than almost every other religion. 'Infidels' is the word they use for non-muslims. What`s strange about it is every other school, C of E & Catholic HAVE to accept muslim kids......or they`d get done for racism.

I'm pretty sure Christian schools are not required to take pupils of other religions if they can fill their schools with pupils from their religion.

The problem might be lack of numbers.

[cletus]

I'm pretty sure Christian schools are not required to take pupils of other religions if they can fill their schools with pupils from their religion.

The problem might be lack of numbers.

Sorry, i think you`re wrong there. I know of CofE & catholic kids having to travel to secondary schools outside of Blackburn, because of oversubscribed local schools.

On a slightly different note (but still on the same subject) the vicar/priest of St Silas church in Blackburn has stopped doing his weekly visit/assembly at St Silas junior school. The last two white christian children were moved out of the school by their mother a while back. I know the mother of the last two children. Her youngest (a boy) was being bullied & actually had his head flushed down a toilet....because he wasn`t muslim. The mother was called into the school & went ballistic when told about the incident. She demanded her children be moved, but the council refused to help her. She took the children out anyway. There`s now talk of dropping the St Silas school name.

[thenodrog]

I'm pretty sure Christian schools are not required to take pupils of other religions if they can fill their schools with pupils from their religion.

The problem might be lack of numbers.

Thats complete nonsense 92er. St Wilfrids could be twice as big as it currently is with 1400 places and still not satisfy demand from local CofE families, yet it has to admit a quota of muslim children. I do think this is probably right but it must cut both ways.