[Archived] Venkys Discussion

[47er]

I don't understand the attitude of those who seem to think British treatment of poultry is so superior to anyone else's. Its just not possible to put a huge chicken on the table for 4 quid unless its been reared in dreadful conditions in a battery farm, stuffed with growth hormones and finally stuffed with anti-biotics. Put simply--they are a health hazard. The same goes for battery eggs----you only need to look at the yolk to know something is very wrong.

I pay 2 or 3 times as much for free range chickens and I won't buy pork because of the cruelty involved in their "production".

However that's my choice and I'm aware most other people don't care. It does not affect my view of the takeover, everyone to their own conscience. Given the degree of poverty in India (and in UK for that matter) I don't expect things to change very quickly. We need a combination of education so that people start to understand what they are buying and legislation to improve the situation step by step. For now I won't be holding my breath.

[Billy Castell]

Not too bothered to be honest. I'd like chickens to have a nice life, but I'm not too hung up about it. And most people from Dorset think Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall is a t__t.

[thenodrog]

corrected

[Mr. E]

I don't know what to say. But here are some facts: There is no way to humanely treat chickens in an industrialized environment. Doesn't matter if you're a first or third world country. What you see in that video is the truth. This is the proven system which makes money.

I realize some people think chickens are barely more alive than plants, and so it doesn't matter how they are treated, but that is simply not true. This level of cruelty is tolerated precisely because people don't really want to think about it or find some half-hearted excuse that helps them get on with their lives and forget about how their meat gets on their plate. And chickens get the worst deal out of all farm animals. It's not "just the way it is", it's the result of unchecked greed committing horrific acts of cruelty and people turning a blind eye to it because it's convenient.

The club is certainly bigger than its current owners, to stop supporting just because of them is absurd. And yet, they want Rovers to contribute directly to their business, which in turn contributes to more of this cruelty.

So, again, I don't know what the answer is.

[PAFELL]

Will do when I get home.

I'll still go but my Mrs feels strongly enough about the issue to question her attendance. It's that bloody Hugh Fearnley-Whathisname's fault!

Just a thought, but have we ever heard about chicken cruelty allegation coming out of India? I do not believe we have. This would have been known well before now. The moment Venky's were mentioned, cruelty would have been also. But that is not the case.

They appear to have a stronge ethical attitude. I suggest we can all forget cruelty to animals involving Venky's, as there has been no allegations.

[MarkBRFC71]

Just a thought, but have we ever heard about chicken cruelty allegation coming out of India? I do not believe we have. This would have been known well before now. The moment Venky's were mentioned, cruelty would have been also. But that is not the case.

They appear to have a stronge ethical attitude. I suggest we can all forget cruelty to animals involving Venky's, as there has been no allegations.

This was posted earlier in the thread. Seems to come from India and relate directly to Venky's.

For those interested in the ethical treatment of animals, here are the results of a PETA investigation into Venky's.

PETA INVESTIGATION

VENKY'S FACTS

LETTER

[Paul]

An interesting discussion here. In our household we would consider ourselves reasonably ethical but also find those ethics are perhaps constricted by modern life. We buy all our meat, except chicken, from the local farm shop. Why? the quality is fabulous, the prices very reasonable and the flavour and texture knocks Tesco into a cocked hat. It's only open three days a week, on cold days they serve tea and cake. Simply they are very, very good, but don't sell chicken. Sometimes I shop at Booths, who also knock Tesco into a cocked hat. I still think twice about buying South African produce, talk about ingrained, and for many years we tried to avoid Nestle products (very difficult). We buy free-range eggs but rarely chicken - why? I suspect the industrialised producers just make it too simple for us. I was horrified to learn about large scale milk production in the USA and the possible establishment of similar factories in the UK. How though could I be sure about where my milk came from? When the kids where younger I had real doubts about buying the club shirt, but still bought it.

I have no argument with those who have a problem with Venky's but can't help but feel it's just one example of the world we live in. My mother used to shop locally 3-4 times a week, there wasn't a supermarket. I knew posh people who went to Sainsbury's but that was in a town one hour away by bus and 45 minutes by car. We know how to shop, we know perhaps how we should shop but still spend most of our money in Tesco. Wandering in Chorley last weekend I was shocked to find how many businesses had closed at the top end of Pall Mall, it's almost a ghost town. My wife and I discussed the proposal for Asda to move into the old "Q" store (I think it was called) at the top of Pall Mall. In truth Asda would be a good addition because it would pull people into a town centre which is declining very rapidly as there is simply no real reason to shop there.

The world has changed, there is much wrong with our food production but it has become necessary to feed the population, the demand for quantity, time and low price. If Venky's own the club I'm sure we will have to suffer a few weeks embarrassment when an investigative journalist needs a story. The support will get very indignant and it will all blow over. It may not be right but that is how it is.

Our social lives have changed enormously and we want our non-work time as free as possible to enjoy our leisure. I want to spend 90 minutes on the weekly shop so I have the rest of the day to ride my bike. Life is for living, advertisers constantly reinforce this, cheap chicken farmed on an industrial scale is part of the world we have developed for ourselves in order to provide us with time for all that leisure stuff.

[sparkspakespoke]

Some people seem to be very worried about this whole cruelty to chickens thing. For me it comes down to a simple choice between how much I want new investment compared to how much chicken cruelty I am comfortable with. This has led me to ask myself a number of questions, I think it would be pertinent for all of you to ask yourselves these questions.

So in order to secure new investment in the club would you be prepared to:

Eat a chicken – Resounding yes, my pleasure.

Shout at a chicken? – Yes I would.

Emotionally blackmail a chicken? – Yes I would.

Allow two chickens to fight? – Yes I would.

Push a chicken? – Yes I would.

Kick a chicken? – Getting a bit uncomfortable here but I really do love my club so under these circumstances I say yes.

Punch a chicken? – As above a reluctant yes

Force relations on a chicken? – For me I say no, this is where I have to draw the line.

So in conclusion, desperate as I am for investment in the club the new owners would lose my support if there is even a hint of chicken rape. Happily there has been no allegations of the owners having relations with chickens so they have my

[Jackson]

Some people seem to be very worried about this whole cruelty to chickens thing. For me it comes down to a simple choice between how much I want new investment compared to how much chicken cruelty I am comfortable with. This has led me to ask myself a number of questions, I think it would be pertinent for all of you to ask yourselves these questions.

So in order to secure new investment in the club would you be prepared to:

Eat a chicken – Resounding yes, my pleasure.

Shout at a chicken? – Yes I would.

Emotionally blackmail a chicken? – Yes I would.

Allow two chickens to fight? – Yes I would.

Push a chicken? – Yes I would.

Kick a chicken? – Getting a bit uncomfortable here but I really do love my club so under these circumstances I say yes.

Punch a chicken? – As above a reluctant yes

Force relations on a chicken? – For me I say no, this is where I have to draw the line.

So in conclusion, desperate as I am for investment in the club the new owners would lose my support if there is even a hint of chicken rape. Happily there has been no allegations of the owners having relations with chickens so they have my

I think the Mr. Man sums up this post - an interesting insight into the thought process of an infant. Ta.

[thenodrog]

....I was horrified to learn about large scale milk production in the USA and the possible establishment of similar factories farms in the UK. How though could I be sure about where my milk came from?

Corrected for you.

Why? What fears do you have regarding the proposed Nocton Dairy development in Lincolnshire?

[Paul]

Corrected for you.

Why? What fears do you have regarding the proposed Nocton Dairy development in Lincolnshire?

OK disclaimer first , as I understand it and I'm quite prepared to be wrong, my info comes from BBC news reports and the Countryfile programme. In the USA there already exist dairy farms where the animals never go into a field. If we want to be emotive we can call it battery farming or factory farming. It appears the cows are artificially inseminated as this is necessary to allow milk production and clearly the calves are needed to continue the cycle and / or produce meat. These animals are kept in pens, food is delivered to them at one end of the pen, and they are milked two to three times per day according to the individual animals production. It's my understanding a similar unit is planned in Lincolnshire, I thought one was planned for Derbyshire as well?

No doubt this is highly efficient, properly regulated, the animals are healthy, well fed etc but the question has to be is it really right to keep an animal the size of a cow in a pen all its life? I have a problem with this idea. I quite like the idea of cows living at least a part of their lives in a field, and I don't need cheaper milk, it's too cheap as it is. I prefer quality in my food, milk is no longer the delicious tasting product it once was but hey it lasts for a week. I'd sooner have a better tasting product, produced from relatively happy cows. There's a really nice lady delivers our pint every day for some ridiculously small amount of money. She apologises for charging an extra 2-3p, which is irrelevant.

I do have a problem with industrial chicken farming but do little about it (though I've found out today where to buy decent chicken), I do not feel we should treat cows in the same manner. Aside from the animal welfare issues there are many issues around waste disposal, chemical useage, land use etc.

[Exiled in Toronto]

A while ago, my daughter made us watch the film Food Inc. which prompted us to change our meat buying behaviour. The intensive cattle pens were, if anything, more shocking than the film inside chicken sheds. Perhaps the fact that stunned me the most was that, in the U.S.A., population 380 million, there are now only 14 abbatoirs for the entire country. Their scale is mind-blowing. It showed one that 'processes' 35,000 pigs every day of the year. Just transporting 35,000 pigs a day sometimes thousands of miles is bad enough. Inside, the line never stops; largley illegal immigrant workers struggle to keep up. The process is inhumane to everyone and everything involved.

So as a thinking consumer you do your best, but the fact is there aren't chickens roosting in trees anywhere near here.

[67splitscreen]

Article I found recently, one of the facts that amazed me was just how far chicken products were/are exported.

My link From 2002 but doubt to much has changed.

[47er]

OK disclaimer first , as I understand it and I'm quite prepared to be wrong, my info comes from BBC news reports and the Countryfile programme. In the USA there already exist dairy farms where the animals never go into a field. If we want to be emotive we can call it battery farming or factory farming. It appears the cows are artificially inseminated as this is necessary to allow milk production and clearly the calves are needed to continue the cycle and / or produce meat. These animals are kept in pens, food is delivered to them at one end of the pen, and they are milked two to three times per day according to the individual animals production. It's my understanding a similar unit is planned in Lincolnshire, I thought one was planned for Derbyshire as well?

No doubt this is highly efficient, properly regulated, the animals are healthy, well fed etc but the question has to be is it really right to keep an animal the size of a cow in a pen all its life? I have a problem with this idea. I quite like the idea of cows living at least a part of their lives in a field, and I don't need cheaper milk, it's too cheap as it is. I prefer quality in my food, milk is no longer the delicious tasting product it once was but hey it lasts for a week. I'd sooner have a better tasting product, produced from relatively happy cows. There's a really nice lady delivers our pint every day for some ridiculously small amount of money. She apologises for charging an extra 2-3p, which is irrelevant.

I do have a problem with industrial chicken farming but do little about it (though I've found out today where to buy decent chicken), I do not feel we should treat cows in the same manner. Aside from the animal welfare issues there are many issues around waste disposal, chemical useage, land use etc.

Paul --you can actually buy decent free range chicken at Tescos-------- very different from their usual muck.

[duffbear]

My feeling are yes it is wrong they way they are treated and would like to change the way I buy food but it is more expensive to do this and I am sure along with many others on this board can not afford to change

The other thing is wrongly or rightly it does not matter what I or you do unfortunatley they way they are treated is highly unlikely to change.

The other problem is others have mentioned we still buy clothes etc which we know are often produced by children in poor areas of the world. If you want to look closer to home were are rovers shirts produced do we know they are made by adults getting a decent wage?

I would rathey be owned by venkys than many other owners that have links with prostitution and gangs etc

In ideal world I am sure we would like to be owned by someone whiter than white but the end of they day we need this takeover.

[booth]

Just a thought, but have we ever heard about chicken cruelty allegation coming out of India? I do not believe we have. This would have been known well before now. The moment Venky's were mentioned, cruelty would have been also. But that is not the case.

They appear to have a stronge ethical attitude. I suggest we can all forget cruelty to animals involving Venky's, as there has been no allegations.

I'd take a look at this...

[unluckymorton]

I'd take a look at this...

How different do you think it is in the UK?

I do hope Rovers fans are not turning against our prospective saviours due to the way battery chickens are treated in India, a country where millions of humans live in squalid conditions but people care more about the lifestyle of a chicken.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

Oh dear, I have to say I couldn't give cluck as long as Rovers are ok. I'm aware of how bad that sounds especially as a vegetarian

As a dog lover I might have some serious issues to contemplate if we were taken over by Koreans.

[booth]

How different do you think it is in the UK?

I do hope Rovers fans are not turning against our prospective saviours due to the way battery chickens are treated in India, a country where millions of humans live in squalid conditions but people care more about the lifestyle of a chicken.

The fact is it's our new owners that have had the finger pointed at them. For example those that care about such things can choose not to shop at Tesco, or eat KFC, or become vegetarian. However not going to see a team they've followed since childhood is a far different matter than deciding not to shop at Primark or avoid Nestle products. It's a huge thing for some people and I can imagine will be difficult to come to terms with.

I would be happier if the new owners weren't involved in such things, but as some people have said it is impossible to get an owner these days with a blemish free character. And im sure Chelsea fans wont have Abramovich's allegations at the forefront of their minds if they beating us tomorrow.

I will still support the club as it will be still there when they've long gone. I just hope the club doesn't get tarred with the animal cruelty brush.

[thenodrog]

OK disclaimer first , as I understand it and I'm quite prepared to be wrong, my info comes from BBC news reports and the Countryfile programme. In the USA there already exist dairy farms where the animals never go into a field.

I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT WHEN COWS ARE IN AN IDEAL BUT RARE SITUATION OF BEING EITHER IN A FIELD WITH AN OPEN GATE TO THEIR HOUSING WITH FOOD, WATER AND DRY LYING AREAS ON COW MATTRESSES AVAILABLE THAT THEY WILL SPEND EVERY BIT AS MUCH TIME IN THE BUILDING AS WELL AS OUT OF IT. COWS ARE LIKE US THEY LIKE MODERATE, DRY WEATHER AND ABSOLUTELY HATE THE RAIN, THE COLD AND EXCESSIVE HEAT. HOW MANY COWS DO YOU SEE KEPT IN A FIELD IN A TRADITIONAL MANNER BUT WITH THE GATE OPEN ALLOWING FREE ACCESS TO THEIR HOUSING? NOT MANY I'M SURE. UNFORTUNATELY FOR THEM DURING THE SUMMER MOST COWS ARE SHUT INTO A FIELD DAY AND NIGHT WHATEVER THE WEATHER. IF YOU THINK IT'S SO GREAT JUST TRY IT SOMETIME.

If we want to be emotive we can call it battery farming or factory farming. It appears the cows are artificially inseminated as this is necessary to allow milk production and clearly the calves are needed to continue the cycle and / or produce meat. NO PROBLEM THERE. IF THERE WAS A BULL AROUND THEY WOULD BREED FASTER STILL. IT'S NATURE AND IF COWS WERE NOT WELL FED AND HAPPY THEY WOULD NOT COME INTO SEASON NOR WOULD THEY COMPLETE THEIR GESTATION PERIOD.

These animals are kept in pens, NOT PENS AT ALL! AND IN THE CASE OF MODERN BUILDINGS LARGE AIRY AREAS, WITH AUTOMATIC SHUTTERS AND FANS TO REGULATE TEMPERATURES food is delivered to them at one end of the pen, and they are milked two to three times per day according to the individual animals production. AND SO THEY SHOULD. THEY ARE IN LACTATION SO IT WOULD BE POINTLESS AND CRUEL NOT TO. It's my understanding a similar unit is planned in Lincolnshire, I thought one was planned for Derbyshire as well?

No doubt this is highly efficient, properly regulated, the animals are healthy, well fed etc but the question has to be is it really right to keep an animal the size of a cow in a pen all its life? SEE ABOVE I have a problem with this idea. I quite like the idea of cows living at least a part of their lives in a field, and I don't need cheaper milk, it's too cheap as it is. I prefer quality in my food, milk is no longer the delicious tasting product it once was but hey it lasts for a week. I'd sooner have a better tasting product, produced from relatively happy cows. There's a really nice lady delivers our pint every day for some ridiculously small amount of money. She apologises for charging an extra 2-3p, which is irrelevant.

I do have a problem with industrial chicken farming but do little about it (though I've found out today where to buy decent chicken), I do not feel we should treat cows in the same manner. Aside from the animal welfare issues there are many issues around waste disposal, chemical useage, land use etc.

Here are the rules which people who keep dairy cows have to adhere to. If they fail the NDFAS inspection they cannot sell their milk. Make a brew and click here for the requirements of the NDFAS.... http://www.ndfas.org.uk/standards/hygiene_v2.asp

"and I don't need cheaper milk, it's too cheap as it is" In that case write to the supermarkets telling them just that. If enough people do it there is a good chance that cows will be kept in even more comfortable surroundings.

Paul --you can actually buy decent free range chicken at Tescos-------- very different from their usual muck.

Hmmm not sure about that. Mostly when I pass a free range establishment I see either a sea of mud or a parched area of dust. The last thing I see is any vegetation.

[BuckyRover]

I certainly know where to direct any Bovine related questions that I may have

[Paul]

thenodrog I can't quote the bulk of your post because of the way you responded to mine but I'll try to get the points together:

Access to field / shelter/ pens; I've repeat watched the Countryfile programme which reported from Foremost Farms, Wisconsin where 4,000 cattle are "farmed" by a vet (note vet!). In response to the question "These cows never go outside?" the vet (not farmer) said "I'm afraid these cows never go outside." The cows were, apparently, able to walk up and down an alleyway and are fed in their pens, where most of them appeared to be spending their time. It was quite clear each animal had a three sided pen in which was its cow mattress. The animals are clearly in pens. Please watch BBC iPlayer to see for yourself. Having observed this on the TV and listened to the vet's words I have to disagree with your view these animals are not penned. I can't argue with the choices a cow would make as I don't know but I suspect if cows produced more milk when give the ideal access you describe they might well be given it.

To quote the vet:

"That's all a cow does, the cow is truely a couch potato. A milking cow will eat 3-5 meals of 15, 18, 25 minute meals, she'll milk for 3 hours, one hour three times a day. Then she'll spend 16, 14, 18 hours a day laying in her cubicle (that would be a pen?) chewing her cud. She's truely a couch potato, if she had a TV remote control she's be in heaven." One could visualise this as a Sci Fi film in which humans are farmed to feed an alien race, I know I've seen a couple with that story line.

Within 2-4 hours of calves being born they are removed from their mothers and given colostrum and the mother is returned to the herd to continue her milk production.

Now this needs to have balance and I have many times commented the issue with food in this country is price. As consumers we demand cheap food, we demand cheap everything in fact, knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. The vet who farmed these cows strongly made the point consumers are totally divorced from farming, we have to feed billions every day, and most people want cheap food more than they are concerned with animal welfare. If we want cheap food there is a price to pay, that is accepting industrial scale animal farms. The animals all seemed to be in good health and I'm sure a happy cow produces the most milk.

The idealized farm producing pints in urns clearly cannot work but allowing the industry to reach the stage were animals never see outside, are kept in pens, within two hours of giving birth are returned to milk production? Is this really acceptable? I'd say it raises a lot of questions.

This thread is about Venky's and raising money for Rovers. For a long time I've found the attitude of many fans, apparently younger fans, quite shocking "Give us the money, don't care where it comes from, just buy some players." This is how many football fans think and post on here. It's a sad indictment of the world we have created. These people appreciate very little and certainly have no understanding of the value of money

[thenodrog]

thenodrog I can't quote the bulk of your post because of the way you responded to mine but I'll try to get the points together:

Access to field / shelter/ pens; I've repeat watched the Countryfile programme which reported from Foremost Farms, Wisconsin where 4,000 cattle are "farmed" by a vet (note vet!). In response to the question "These cows never go outside?" the vet (not farmer) said "I'm afraid these cows never go outside." The cows were, apparently, able to walk up and down an alleyway and are fed in their pens, where most of them appeared to be spending their time. It was quite clear each animal had a three sided pen in which was its cow mattress. The animals are clearly in pens. Please watch BBC iPlayer to see for yourself. Having observed this on the TV and listened to the vet's words I have to disagree with your view these animals are not penned. I can't argue with the choices a cow would make as I don't know but I suspect if cows produced more milk when give the ideal access you describe they might well be given it.

To quote the vet:

"That's all a cow does, the cow is truely a couch potato. A milking cow will eat 3-5 meals of 15, 18, 25 minute meals, she'll milk for 3 hours, one hour three times a day. Then she'll spend 16, 14, 18 hours a day laying in her cubicle (that would be a pen?) chewing her cud. She's truely a couch potato, if she had a TV remote control she's be in heaven." One could visualise this as a Sci Fi film in which humans are farmed to feed an alien race, I know I've seen a couple with that story line.

Within 2-4 hours of calves being born they are removed from their mothers and given colostrum and the mother is returned to the herd to continue her milk production.

Now this needs to have balance and I have many times commented the issue with food in this country is price. As consumers we demand cheap food, we demand cheap everything in fact, knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. The vet who farmed these cows strongly made the point consumers are totally divorced from farming, we have to feed billions every day, and most people want cheap food more than they are concerned with animal welfare. If we want cheap food there is a price to pay, that is accepting industrial scale animal farms. The animals all seemed to be in good health and I'm sure a happy cow produces the most milk.

The idealized farm producing pints in urns clearly cannot work but allowing the industry to reach the stage were animals never see outside, are kept in pens, within two hours of giving birth are returned to milk production? Is this really acceptable? I'd say it raises a lot of questions.

This thread is about Venky's and raising money for Rovers. For a long time I've found the attitude of many fans, apparently younger fans, quite shocking "Give us the money, don't care where it comes from, just buy some players." This is how many football fans think and post on here. It's a sad indictment of the world we have created. These people appreciate very little and certainly have no understanding of the value of money

1. From t'internet....

"Wisconsin has an average annual temperature of 43 degrees F. with a more normal range of 0 degrees F. to 80 degrees F. The average annual rainfall is 30 inches and the average snowfall is 45 inches, however the record annual snowfall exceeds 130 inches."

There is an old saying that in the mid west you can sell milk by the pound in winter and butter by the pint in summer. Try this for a general view of the midwest climate. http://weathereye.kgan.com/cadet/climate/climate_midwest.html

Now do you think it is fair to shove cows which originate from a temperate climate (Friesan / Holstein from the Netherlands) out in that hell on earth? It's either blistering heat in the summer quarter or -40 degrees and 3ft deep in snow during the winter. And yet it's you who is talking about cruelty and welfare.

2. The 'pens' you refer too are indeed referred to as cubicles. 'Pens' is emotive so please stop using that term. Use the word cubicles instead and for cubicles you need to think 'single beds' or bovine dormitaries even. The cows like to lie and relax in them in safety from trampling by others etc and and are totally free to come and go to and from them for 24 hours per day as and when they please. btw you are wrong here too....they are definitely not fed in them nor kept indefinitely in them either.

You need to do a little more research and understand a subject fully before you post so emotively and so knowledgeably Paul.

Oh and btw how can cows suffer if the manager of the farm is a fully qualified vet for goodness sake? You make it sound like a vet running a farm is bad when in fact it's quite likely the exact opposite.

[Jackson]

You need to do a little more research and understand a subject fully before you post so emotively and so knowledgeably Paul.

I'm a vet, Gordon, and I can safely say that reading the above, from a professional viewpoint, it would appear that you are the one whom needs to do a little more "in the field" research instead of quoting some reading material that, in all reality, doesn't at all represent the real and true situation regarding animal husbandry.

Paul's contributions, despite primarily being from tv, are actually pretty spot on.

[ABBEY]

I'm a vet,

as in veteran? old soldier or someone who shoves his arm up a cows bum? just asking