[Archived] Venkys Discussion

[koi]

Well here's my thoughts on the chicken debate:

I was getting jaded with KFC, it has always been my favourite fast junk food joint. I can't stand the MacDonald trash - not been in one since my school days about 15 years ago at least. I don't mind a BK but the Chorley one has long gone, it wasn't very successful as you had to pay to park unless it was a Sunday, that's not good. Of course there's always a Chinese, I like a Chinese, in fact the Oriental on Park Road in Chorley makes the best deep-fried special in peking sauce with egg fried rice that I've tasted the only problem is when I want fast junk food I want it served fast. There are other outlets, Pucinella's in Chorley gets a deserved mention and of course the numerous chippies. Now this might be sacrilege but I'm not a chippy lover, a chippy tea doesn't sit easy in my belly and leaves me feeling a tad bloated. No, KFC has been the place for me when I needed a fast junk food hit, but like I said, I'd become jaded.

Anyway, I popped into KFC the other week and decided to try the Kentucky Jack meal (went large on the fries and drink (Sprite)). It was delightful, the best KFC meal I've had for ages. Chicken when cooked - or fried - correctly tastes amazing, chickens are ace.

What was the question again?

[roversmum]

Yes, quite, Abbey, haha.

Anyway. Everything Paul says is correct. The dude on the countrywide programme was right in that he said there are people to feed and to be honest, the couple of chickens and a cow scratching around in the farmyard are simply not going to be sufficient to feed the projected population of the world. It won't just be a case of cheap food, it will be adequate food. Even now, far too many people are starving.

It's a very worrying question. The type of animal husbandry that we saw doesn't sit comfortably with me, but what is the answer? Maybe we should seriously consider some kind of curbing of the population growth but then that can skew the male/female ratio also giving problems in the long term. Some of these problems are surfacing in China where families are restricted to one child. The issue of fresh water is going to come up sooner rather than later, too.

[BRFC95]

What was the question again?

How's your Cholesterol

[koi]

How's your Cholesterol

It's great thanks! I only have a take-away once or twice a month

[thenodrog]

I'm a vet, Gordon, and I can safely say that reading the above, from a professional viewpoint, it would appear that you are the one whom needs to do a little more "in the field" research instead of quoting some reading material that, in all reality, doesn't at all represent the real and true situation regarding animal husbandry.

Paul's contributions, despite primarily being from tv, are actually pretty spot on.

Could you be specific Jackson? Which point are you objecting to? Point 1 about the temperature variations in the Mid West of the USA, or Point 2 about dairy cattle husbandry in the UK?

[AlanK]

Quite the expert are we not gordon. "there is an old saying in the midwest....".

local are you?

my wife is a vetinary nurse, i showed her your comments on pauls opinions and it is safe to say another member of the human race is of the opinion you are uneducated, ignorant and arrogant. she is a smart cookie she sussed that from just one of your posts.

to accuse paul of being emotive for using the word pen and to tell him not to use it us a troll at work. again.

i buy free range eggs and meat not from dusty or muddy pits but from great local farms. in fact the farmer who visited the states for countryfile has his farm ten miles up the road from me.

i don't like the fact that indian chicken farmers are buying all things rovers and the animal treatment issue certainly does not help.I

[Paul]

1. From t'internet....

"Wisconsin has an average annual temperature of 43 degrees F. with a more normal range of 0 degrees F. to 80 degrees F. The average annual rainfall is 30 inches and the average snowfall is 45 inches, however the record annual snowfall exceeds 130 inches."

There is an old saying that in the mid west you can sell milk by the pound in winter and butter by the pint in summer. Try this for a general view of the midwest climate. http://weathereye.kg...te_midwest.html

Now do you think it is fair to shove cows which originate from a temperate climate (Friesan / Holstein from the Netherlands) out in that hell on earth? It's either blistering heat in the summer quarter or -40 degrees and 3ft deep in snow during the winter. And yet it's you who is talking about cruelty and welfare.

I imagine Wisconsin farmers have been dealing with the huge temperature fluctuations more than adequately for at least a couple of centuries without resorting to keeping their cows indoors 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Could you find me the point where I talk about cruelty and welfare? I questioned whether or not keeping an animal the size of a cow indoors all its life was acceptable. At no point did I state, or even, infer, cruelty or poor welfare was involved.

2. The 'pens' you refer too are indeed referred to as cubicles. 'Pens' is emotive so please stop using that term. Use the word cubicles instead and for cubicles you need to think 'single beds' or bovine dormitaries even. The cows like to lie and relax in them in safety from trampling by others etc and and are totally free to come and go to and from them for 24 hours per day as and when they please. btw you are wrong here too....they are definitely not fed in them nor kept indefinitely in them either.

You need to do a little more research and understand a subject fully before you post so emotively and so knowledgeably Paul.

Pig pen and sheep pen are phrases used for centuries to describe enclosures for farm animals. Given your violent objection to anything remotely "PC" can you explain why we need to adopt an American term, cubicle, to describe what we all know as a pen. Without bothering to reach for the dictionary I'd suggest in every day UK English a cubicle is a small, confined space, with 3 or 4 sides where people change at swimming baths, undress at the doctor's, men go to urinate etc. One thing it most definetley is not is a place to keep a cow! Americans may use the word to make the housing conditions sound more acceptable, with your views on calling "a spade, a spade" can you explain why in this instance you wish to change the word used. Is it because you find pen too emotive for the general public?

Moving on to the emotion and knowledge you suggest exists in my posts. I think you'll struggle to find anything emotive in my words, certainly not on the scale you use to describe the slaughter methods for Halal and kosher meat and the peoples associated with the practice. As for knowledge? I clearly stated all I knew came from the BBC Countryfile programme, it's encouraging to read from two professionals, thank you Jackson and AlanK, that I had largely grabbed the correct information. It's even more encouraging to know the BBC are reporting fairly and objectively on what does have the potential to be a highly emotive subject.

Oh and btw how can cows suffer if the manager of the farm is a fully qualified vet for goodness sake? You make it sound like a vet running a farm is bad when in fact it's quite likely the exact opposite.

I didn't not say the cows suffer, please don't put words in my mouth. I'd rather gathered you at least have associations with farming and perhaps even worked in agriculture so I'm surprised you do not seem to appreciate the difference between a farmer running a farm and a vet. With respect to Jackson, AlanK and the profession I'd like to suggest the vet's role is to deal with areas surrounding animal health, births, injections, inspection for illness, recommendations perhaps on nutrition, notifiable disease etc. etc. The farmer's role is the overall husbandry of the "crop," which will be more closely concerned with the implementation etc. It occurs to me that if a vet is required to manage a farm the potential, and I stress potential, for poor diet, disease outbreaks etc is deemed greater and therefore a person with those skills as opposed to farming skills is required.

Now before you rubbish all this can I mention I've spent my entire working life in horticulture. The two industries have many similarities, face similar difficutlies. I have experienced, and helped implement, the massive changes required in horticultural businesses to remain competitive and can therefore fully appreciate how, what are still regarded as traditional or homely industries, have needed to change to meet the challenges of food production in the 21st century.

Perhaps the best analogy I can give on the vet / farmer role and relationship, and if you know anything about agri/horti plant / food production you will understand, is this; our crops are "walked" (inspected for the layman) by the Plant Health Inspectorate on a regular basis. After walking the crops the inspector will report and advise on general health, P&D outbreaks, plant nutrition etc. Our role, as growers, is to apply the necessary husbandry to the crop to prevent or control anything the PHI have found, though obviously we do this on a daily basis without their direct input. I feel if a vet is required to run a farm it is a strong indicator all the animal equivalents of the above are likely to be a greater problem than animal husbandry. I would suggest in the majority of cases the vet / famer relationship is similar to, perhaps even identical to, the PHI / plant grower relationship.

I shall be very interested to hear from Jackson or Alan as to whether or not I've correctly interpreted the role of a modern vet.

[Iceman]

Forget meat and chicken, just eat your vegetables.

[Jackson]

I imagine Wisconsin farmers have been dealing with the huge temperature fluctuations more than adequately for at least a couple of centuries without resorting to keeping their cows indoors 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Could you find me the point where I talk about cruelty and welfare? I questioned whether or not keeping an animal the size of a cow indoors all its life was acceptable. At no point did I state, or even, infer, cruelty or poor welfare was involved.

Pig pen and sheep pen are phrases used for centuries to describe enclosures for farm animals. Given your violent objection to anything remotely "PC" can you explain why we need to adopt an American term, cubicle, to describe what we all know as a pen. Without bothering to reach for the dictionary I'd suggest in every day UK English a cubicle is a small, confined space, with 3 or 4 sides where people change at swimming baths, undress at the doctor's, men go to urinate etc. One thing it most definetley is not is a place to keep a cow! Americans may use the word to make the housing conditions sound more acceptable, with your views on calling "a spade, a spade" can you explain why in this instance you wish to change the word used. Is it because you find pen too emotive for the general public?

Moving on to the emotion and knowledge you suggest exists in my posts. I think you'll struggle to find anything emotive in my words, certainly not on the scale you use to describe the slaughter methods for Halal and kosher meat and the peoples associated with the practice. As for knowledge? I clearly stated all I knew came from the BBC Countryfile programme, it's encouraging to read from two professionals, thank you Jackson and AlanK, that I had largely grabbed the correct information. It's even more encouraging to know the BBC are reporting fairly and objectively on what does have the potential to be a highly emotive subject.

I didn't not say the cows suffer, please don't put words in my mouth. I'd rather gathered you at least have associations with farming and perhaps even worked in agriculture so I'm surprised you do not seem to appreciate the difference between a farmer running a farm and a vet. With respect to Jackson, AlanK and the profession I'd like to suggest the vet's role is to deal with areas surrounding animal health, births, injections, inspection for illness, recommendations perhaps on nutrition, notifiable disease etc. etc. The farmer's role is the overall husbandry of the "crop," which will be more closely concerned with the implementation etc. It occurs to me that if a vet is required to manage a farm the potential, and I stress potential, for poor diet, disease outbreaks etc is deemed greater and therefore a person with those skills as opposed to farming skills is required.

Now before you rubbish all this can I mention I've spent my entire working life in horticulture. The two industries have many similarities, face similar difficutlies. I have experienced, and helped implement, the massive changes required in horticultural businesses to remain competitive and can therefore fully appreciate how, what are still regarded as traditional or homely industries, have needed to change to meet the challenges of food production in the 21st century.

Perhaps the best analogy I can give on the vet / farmer role and relationship, and if you know anything about agri/horti plant / food production you will understand, is this; our crops are "walked" (inspected for the layman) by the Plant Health Inspectorate on a regular basis. After walking the crops the inspector will report and advise on general health, P&D outbreaks, plant nutrition etc. Our role, as growers, is to apply the necessary husbandry to the crop to prevent or control anything the PHI have found, though obviously we do this on a daily basis without their direct input. I feel if a vet is required to run a farm it is a strong indicator all the animal equivalents of the above are likely to be a greater problem than animal husbandry. I would suggest in the majority of cases the vet / famer relationship is similar to, perhaps even identical to, the PHI / plant grower relationship.

I shall be very interested to hear from Jackson or Alan as to whether or not I've correctly interpreted the role of a modern vet.

Nothing to add, Paul.

Spot on.

[BuckyRover]

I have something to add

You make pigs smoke. You feed beef burgers to swans. You have big sheds, but nobody's allowed in. And in these sheds you have 20ft high chickens, and these chickens are scared because the don't know why they're so big, and they're going, "Oh why am I so massive?" and they're looking down at all the little chickens and they think they're in an aeroplane because all the other chickens are so small. Do you deny that?

[K-Hod]

Before anyone gets on their high horse about animal cruelty or any reason to bring down the prospective new owners- remember this: animal farming companies are designed to maximise profitablity, so don't talk about them like they're the only ones involved in such practices.

Sometimes people get so self-righteous it's painful!

[BiggusLaddus]

I have something to add

Careful, he'll throw a cow on you.

[booth]

I have something to add

If you see a lovely field with a family having a picnic, and a nice pond in it, you fill in the pond with concrete, you plow the family into the soil, you blow up the tree, and use the leaves to make a dress for your wife who is also your brother.

[philipl]

Daily Telegraph on chickens

[rowz]

I have something to add

I own a high horse ,two holy cows ,3 greedy pigs ,several headless chickens [humanely stunned first of course] and a goat who is very keen on acting.I don't know too much about football but I do follow sheep.

I would like to buy your football club.

Am I suitable ?

OLD MAC

[LeChuck]

Before anyone gets on their high horse about animal cruelty or any reason to bring down the prospective new owners- remember this: animal farming companies are designed to maximise profitablity, so don't talk about them like they're the only ones involved in such practices.

Sometimes people get so self-righteous it's painful!

I have no idea what point you're trying to make there. Can you expand please?

[tashor]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make there. Can you expand please?

What's worse I wonder.........

Animal cruelty or racism................ :!:

[Ninjathunder]

Before anyone gets on their high horse about animal cruelty or any reason to bring down the prospective new owners- remember this: animal farming companies are designed to maximise profitablity, so don't talk about them like they're the only ones involved in such practices.

Sometimes people get so self-righteous it's painful!

There's no logic to your point. If you disagree with animal cruelty, profits don't matter, whether the companies are animal farming companies, pharmaceutical companies or fast food retailers. Nothing high horse about that whatsoever. Eating factory farmed animals bred in cruel circumstances while getting upset about fox hunting, when the fox lives a life of freedom, isn't exactly an example of riding a Shetland pony but not this.

[CrazyIvan]

I have to say this is an entirely bizzarre debate. Has anyone actually been to India and seen the way that Venkys produce their chickens? If not, I think it's hard for anyone to actually judge one way or the other what Venkys are actually like as a company with regard to production of chickens. Whilst I agree that some ways of producing chickens indoors is pretty horrible, it is not nescessarily cruel and harsh and it can be done humanely and with relative kindness to the animals. Anyone jumping on the moral high ground before knowing how Venkys actually work and what the conditions are like is distinctly premature.

[Mr. E]

I have to say this is an entirely bizzarre debate. Has anyone actually been to India and seen the way that Venkys produce their chickens? If not, I think it's hard for anyone to actually judge one way or the other what Venkys are actually like as a company with regard to production of chickens. Whilst I agree that some ways of producing chickens indoors is pretty horrible, it is not nescessarily cruel and harsh and it can be done humanely and with relative kindness to the animals. Anyone jumping on the moral high ground before knowing how Venkys actually work and what the conditions are like is distinctly premature.

There is no way to engage in mass-production of chicken products that is not intolerably cruel. Any company that tries to finance "humane and kind" procedure for millions of chickens would not make money. It doesn't matter if it's India, the States, or anything in between.

Here is an undercover investigation of standard procedure at an American farm: http://www.mercyforanimals.org/maine-eggs/

[CrazyIvan]

There is no way to engage in mass-production of chicken products that is not intolerably cruel. Any company that tries to finance "humane and kind" procedure for millions of chickens would not make money. It doesn't matter if it's India, the States, or anything in between.

Here is an undercover investigation of standard procedure at an American farm: http://www.mercyfora...org/maine-eggs/

I don't know how you can possibly say that as it has been proven to be possible. I'm not going to argue the point but I've seen where it has been done and how effective it is and healthy the chickens are. Have you been there? Do you know how they work?

[Mr. E]

I don't know how you can possibly say that as it has been proven to be possible. I'm not going to argue the point but I've seen where it has been done and how effective it is and healthy the chickens are. Have you been there? Do you know how they work?

Have I been where? India, to see Venkys farms at work? No, and I'm not sure whether you're trying to imply that you have. But this is standard industry procedure, and it is standard precisely because it is profitable. Few laws offer any protection to farm animals. I would love to know that Venkys is some unique, special exception, but then I'd also like to see concrete proof of that.

[thenodrog]

Could you be specific Jackson? Which point are you objecting to? Point 1 about the temperature variations in the Mid West of the USA, or Point 2 about dairy cattle husbandry in the UK?

Nothing to add, Paul.

Spot on.

Is that it? I expected better from somebody who claims to be a vet.

Quite the expert are we not gordon. "there is an old saying in the midwest....".

local are you?

my wife is a vetinary nurse, i showed her your comments on pauls opinions and it is safe to say another member of the human race is of the opinion you are uneducated, ignorant and arrogant. she is a smart cookie she sussed that from just one of your posts.

Just ask er indoors when was the last time that she last visited a modern dairy farm in the course of her duty. I'd imagine the truthful answer is never. Am I right Mrs K?

[thenodrog]

Pig pen and sheep pen are phrases used for centuries to describe enclosures for farm animals. Given your violent objection to anything remotely "PC" can you explain why we need to adopt an American term, cubicle, to describe what we all know as a pen. Without bothering to reach for the dictionary I'd suggest in every day UK English a cubicle is a small, confined space, with 3 or 4 sides where people change at swimming baths, undress at the doctor's, men go to urinate etc. One thing it most definetley is not is a place to keep a cow! Americans may use the word to make the housing conditions sound more acceptable, with your views on calling "a spade, a spade" can you explain why in this instance you wish to change the word used. Is it because you find pen too emotive for the general public?

Buoyed by inaccurate comments from somebody who claims to be a vet you are getting a little bit silly. A 'pen' is an enclosed space in which animals are 'imprisoned' and from which they can not get out of. They can be any size and can be for indidual animals or groups of animals. Think prison cells.

A 'cubicle' is simply a safe place in a large building where a cow can freely move into to lie down and rest in relative privacy and security and move out of again any time they please. They are only big enough to accomodate one animal. Think single beds or bunks if it's any easier for you.

Have I told you how to grow flowers?

[Paul]

Oh you are such a wag. Answer the points instead of trying to score points with your put downs.

I'd ask you to provide an example from this thread were I have suggested how you should do anything.