[Archived] Venkys Discussion

[thenodrog]

Oh you are such a wag. Answer the points instead of trying to score points with your put downs.

It's not a put down. I freely admit that I know sweet FA about growing flowers on a commercial basis and despite rather pompous posts you quite obviously know the square root of that about dairy farming.

I quote this which appears to represent the nub of your argument from your earlier post

"No doubt this is highly efficient, properly regulated, the animals are healthy, well fed etc but the question has to be is it really right to keep an animal the size of a cow in a pen all its life? I have a problem with this idea. I quite like the idea of cows living at least a part of their lives in a field, and I don't need cheaper milk, it's too cheap as it is. I prefer quality in my food, milk is no longer the delicious tasting product it once was but hey it lasts for a week."

1. I've explained that dairy cows are not kept in enclosed pens but you seem to be having trouble grasping that. I don't think the truth suits your agenda. Your opinion therefore becomes largely irrelevent from the outset.

2. Tell you what (I'll let you off the night shift) but you don a T shirt, light sweater take a flask and sarnies and you try sitting on wet grass in a field all day EVERY DAY from 8am until 6pm. No doubt it's always nice when you choose to cycle through the leafy lanes of Chorley but I don't suppose you do that when it's cold, blustery and peeing down do you? I bet you don't do it at noon when the temperatures are in the 80's and 90's either. Leave the farm gate and the cow building doors open, provide fresh food and water and a comfortable CUBICLE and you'll see just how often the cows reject the freedom that you would wish on them. They will go out thats obvious but they soon come in when the weather turns. They are just the same as us so given one choice or the other whats it to be?

3. Stupidly you then go on to tell us all that (despite most medical opinion over the last decade but not counting some recent opinion) from your childhhod experiences full fat milk that is beginning to sour and has not been pasteurised, homogenised and standardised to provide a fresh and consistent product really is the best.

btw just as an aside is longevity of your blooms a part of your retail presentation? I can assure you that it is foremost in discussions between the dairies and the supermarkets.

btw I'm not expecting much from MrsK but I am still waiting patiently for Jackson to answer this.........

http://www.brfcs.co.uk/mb/index.php/topic/23706-venkys-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__972183

[LeChuck]

What's worse I wonder.........

Animal cruelty or racism................ :!:

Excellent question. I'm surprised you didn't write a song about it.

[tashor]

Excellent question. I'm surprised you didn't write a song about it.

How could I possibly disappoint you, my cute lovable little furry friend..........

I see Chucks in pain, racism too

I see the misery for me and you

And I think to myself what a terrible world.............

I see halves of blue and halves of white

The Rovers winning play, in the dark Ewood night

And I think to myself what a wonderful world.......

The colours of the rainbow so pretty in the sky

Are also on the faces of people going by

I see friends shaking hands saying how did we do

They're really saying Rovers I love you..........................

[AlanK]

Is that it? I expected better from somebody who claims to be a vet.

Just ask er indoors when was the last time that she last visited a modern dairy farm in the course of her duty. I'd imagine the truthful answer is never. Am I right Mrs K?

You would imagine that? You stick to your imagination Nodrog.Don`t let facts get in the way. Says it all really. Living in the land of make believe.

For the record, the vetinary surgery she is employed at deals with domestic pets, a diverse range of creatures from the local wild life park from Rhinos to parrots and several of the local livestock and dairy farms here in the Cotswolds involving numerous outcalls each week.

Any other questions?

You`ve just made yourself look........I`m far to polite!

[AlanK]

Is that it? I expected better from somebody who claims to be a vet.

When people have nothing to prove....

[Paul]

Gordon try reading that post through another's perspective. You show yourself in a very poor light, but insults and arrogance are really all you have to offer these days.

TBH it's all so wide of the mark there's nothing worth replying too.

[dave birch]

A 'cubicle' is simply a safe place in a large building where a cow can freely move into to lie down and rest in relative privacy and security and move out of again any time they please. They are only big enough to accomodate one animal. Think single beds or bunks if it's any easier for you.

I p!ssed my self laughing at the bit "... and rest in relative privacy.....". " I say, Daisy, you're in my cubicle, nick off, there's a good girl."

Gordon, when cattle are in the best environment they can be in, there is NO privacy. It matters nought to them whether they are caught crapping or p!ssing in public. They even lie down and have a kip in public.

How base of them

[thenodrog]

I p!ssed my self laughing at the bit "... and rest in relative privacy.....". " I say, Daisy, you're in my cubicle, nick off, there's a good girl."

Gordon, when cattle are in the best environment they can be in, there is NO privacy. It matters nought to them whether they are caught crapping or p!ssing in public. They even lie down and have a kip in public.

How base of them

So very wrong dave. Obviously another keen to comment from a position of ignorance.

When housed in a building cows prefer to lie where they are safe from trampling from the rest of the herd, whereas in a field they have more space to lie safely in. A farmer that I spoke too years ago made options of straw yard or large comfortable cubicles available to his herd under one roof. It was their choice where they laid. The cubicles were never empty. He then replaced all the straw area with cubicles.

[Amo]

Gordon, when cattle are in the best environment they can be in, there is NO privacy. It matters nought to them whether they are caught crapping or p!ssing in public. They even lie down and have a kip in public.

How base of them

I was trying to take a p!ss by a farmer's field the other day and this one cow wouldn't stop staring at me. Almost put me off.

[thenodrog]

Gordon try reading that post through another's perspective. You mean people who know sweet FA about the subject? So a no to that thanks.

You show yourself in a very poor light, but insults and arrogance are really all you have to offer these days. Accurate comment is never 'nothing to offer'.

TBH it's all so wide of the mark there's nothing worth replying too. so be it if you are quite happy to carry on through life in ignorance.[/i]

I was trying to take a p!ss by a farmer's field the other day and this one cow wouldn't stop staring at me. Almost put me off.

More playground humour from Topman.

btw....Did you manage to get it over the hedge top man?

[AlanK]

Gordon, you have repeatedly demanded we justify our posts.

We have stated where we get our information from.

You always come back demanding more without stating where your information comes from.

You dismiss our posts while pretending to be quite the expert.

I quote what you replied to Paul who appears to be far more qualifed on the subject than yourself and has worded his replies very well.

"You need to do a little more research and understand a subject fully before you post so emotively and so knowledgeably Paul"

That is just a wind up.

You`re like a virus on this MB. You just go around inciting, picking, poking.

You have wasted enough of my time.

Ignore on.

[Jackson]

Is that it? I expected better from somebody who claims to be a vet.

Well, to be honest, Gordon, I have a day job, which you, apparently, do not. Your posts seem to rely less on substance/having a genuine desire to conduct a mature debate and more on a wish to wind your fellow posters up - a bit like a troll, if you will. It wouldn't be so bad, but your trolling seems devoid of humour, which is disappointing.

But as an aside, I will pick up on your last "anecdote" regarding the pros and cons of straw yards and cubicles with regards to a common affliction of the dairy cow, lameness. This will serve as an example of how continous movement, without musculo-skeletal restriction, combined with an inherently more comfortable bedding, just like with the seasonal putting out cows to pasture, results in a much better standard of health for our bovine friends:

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/18842310;jsessionid=88AD6824DF158C3874B07607BFD76C74.jvm4

"Only 1% of all gaits in straw yard cows were scored as lame, while in cubicle housed cows these percentages varied from 24% to 46% with grooved floors showing the highest average locomotion score".

I'd go further and talk about contagious mastitis and nutritional and physiological/pathological implications of eating fresh grass v's concentrate, especially regarding incidences of rumenal bloat and digestion/production, but, to be honest, I think it may go over your head.

Thanks all the same.

[BuckyRover]

I think Gordon needs putting out to pasture

[thenodrog]

.......... But as an aside, I will pick up on your last "anecdote" regarding the pros and cons of straw yards and cubicles with regards to a common affliction of the dairy cow, lameness. This will serve as an example of how continous movement, without musculo-skeletal restriction, combined with an inherently more comfortable bedding, just like with the seasonal putting out cows to pasture, results in a much better standard of health for our bovine friends:

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/18842310;jsessionid=88AD6824DF158C3874B07607BFD76C74.jvm4

"Only 1% of all gaits in straw yard cows were scored as lame, while in cubicle housed cows these percentages varied from 24% to 46% with grooved floors showing the highest average locomotion score".

I'd go further and talk about contagious mastitis and nutritional and physiological/pathological implications of eating fresh grass v's concentrate, especially regarding incidences of rumenal bloat and digestion/production, but, to be honest, I think it may go over your head.

Thanks all the same.

Thanks for your reply Jackson. (You sound a bit narked... you've not got a touch of acidosis have you? )

But feel free to go forward with your fresh grass v concentrate etc comments.

As for your link.

1. I don't understand some of those figures. 221 cows in 12 commercial herds? Does that mean that the average herd size of the cows studied is less than 20 cows?

2. Do cows on straw yards not suffer from 'digital dermatitis? Also slurry heel might be remedied but I've known 'digi' to actually worsen at turn out. Furthemore any herd manager with up to 46% of his herd lame wants showing the door.

Straw yards have many inherent problems of their own as I'm sure you are aware. Forget for the moment rampant and frequently recurring mastitis that results in massive cell count related penalties on the milk price, forget too high incidences of sole ulcers with heifers coming from straw yards to cubicles because even more insurmountable is that using straw to bed herds in in grassland areas is no longer economically viable! Straw is currently in the region of £85 per tonne delivered! £250 per head or £25,000 for a 100 cow herd per annum (and rising thanks to competition from the power stations as a consequence of the Kyoto agreement) puts a serious dent of the margin per litre figures. So unless you can get the large retailers to factor the cost of that into the price they pay for their milk (btw good luck with that one Jackson ) I don't really think bedding dairy cows in straw yards is a go er is it?

Now I accept that longevity is an ever bigger issue and that lameness is a significant contributer to culling figures (according to Dardni lameness accounts for about the same as mastitis at 10-11% whilst the biggest is infertility at 32%) but the lack of straw bedded dairy herds tells it's own story really doen't it?

So if you haven't too many budgie beaks to clip or goldfish to de-fungus you might try asking a farmer for his opinion. (I should apologise for ending in the same condescending and sarcastic manner which you have adopted but I'll leave it unsaid for now) .

[Jackson]

Thanks for your reply Jackson. (You sound a bit narked... you've not got a touch of acidosis have you? )

But feel free to go forward with your fresh grass v concentrate etc comments.

As for your link.

1. I don't understand some of those figures. 221 cows in 12 commercial herds? Does that mean that the average herd size of the cows studied is less than 20 cows? IT WOULD APPEAR SO. EVEN BETTER CHANCE TO ASSESS ON AN INDIVUDUAL BASIS, DON'T YOU THINK?. Do cows on straw yards not suffer from 'digital dermatitis? Also slurry heel might be remedied but I've known 'digi' to actually worsen at turn out. Furthemore any herd manager with up to 46% of his herd lame wants showiDng the door. MINIMAL-MILD INCIDENCES ARE MORE COMMON THAN YOU MAY THINK. NOT SURE, WHEN YOU SAY "DIGI", WHETHER YOU MEAN PAPILLOMATOUS DIGITAL DERMATITIS (TREPONEMA SPP.) OR NECROBACILLOSIS - THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH "FARMER'S TERMS" AND FARMERS (OFTEN LUMPED) "DIAGNOSES". TRUE PDD IS WORSENED BY STANDING IN SLURRY AND IS LOWER IN INCIDENCE WITH INCREASED PASTURE TIMES:

Straw yards have many inherent problems of their own as I'm sure you are aware. Forget for the moment rampant and frequently recurring mastitis that results in massive cell count related penalties on the milk price, forget too high incidences of sole ulcers with heifers coming from straw yards to cubicles because even more insurmountable is that using straw to bed herds in in grassland areas is no longer economically viable! Straw is currently in the region of £85 per tonne delivered! £250 per head or £25,000 for a 100 cow herd per annum (and rising thanks to competition from the power stations as a consequence of the Kyoto agreement) puts a serious dent of the margin per litre figures. So unless you can get the large retailers to factor the cost of that into the price they pay for their milk (btw good luck with that one Jackson ) I don't really think bedding dairy cows in straw yards is a go er is it?

SORRY OLD BOY - YOU'VE TOTALLY LOST YOUR THREAD HERE. WE WERE USING THE STRAW YARD AS A SURROGATE FOR A DRIER, MORE AEROBIC, SUBSTRATE ON WHICH THE COWS PUTS ITS FEET/MG's - i.e: PASTURE.

Now I accept that longevity is an ever bigger issue and that lameness is a significant contributer to culling figures (according to Dardni lameness accounts for about the same as mastitis at 10-11% whilst the biggest is infertility at 32%) but the lack of straw bedded dairy herds tells it's own story really doen't it? SORRY - YOU'VE BEEN SIDETRACKED AGAIN.

So if you haven't too many budgie beaks to clip or goldfish to de-fungus you might try asking a farmer for his opinion. DON'T REALLY NEED TO. I'LL GO OFF MY OWN PROF. EXPERIENCE IN EPIDEMIOLOGY AND PATHOLOGY (DipRCPath FRCPath Dipl.ACVP) AND "IN THE FIELD" EXPERIENCE THANKS. (I should apologise for ending in the same condescending and sarcastic manner which you have adopted but I'll leave it unsaid for now) . NO PROBLEM. ALTHOUGH I AM CURIOUS AS TO YOUR EXPERIENCE/PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE RATHER THAN THE EXPERIENCE OF YOUR FARMER FRIENDS AND SOME GOOGLE SEARCHES - MAYBE YOU COULD CONDUCT A "STRAW POLL?"

[K-Hod]

Could have sworn this was a football messageboard...........

[BuckyRover]

Could have sworn this was a football messageboard...........

Theno's favourite pastime is taking threads off on strange tangents by being deliberatly confrontational and self righteous.

[AlanK]

Great reply Jackson but you are wasting your time. Whatever you put, no matter how correct he will argue against it.

If you had posted what he has, he would have attempted to post what you have. Obviously not possible because google searches and wiki don`t have your experience!

Was in the supermarket yesterday and while we normally buy our chicken from a free range farm up the road ( not one where the birds are in dusty/muddy pits ) I checked out the prices. It is much better to buy direct from the farmer in terms of value for money. Quite a difference actually and as fresh as you are going to get it.

Oh and Jackson, stick him on ignore like the rest of us.

[thenodrog]

Great reply Jackson but you are wasting your time. Whatever you put, no matter how correct he will argue against it.

If you had posted what he has, he would have attempted to post what you have. Obviously not possible because google searches and wiki don`t have your experience!

Was in the supermarket yesterday and while we normally buy our chicken from a free range farm up the road ( not one where the birds are in dusty/muddy pits ) I checked out the prices. It is much better to buy direct from the farmer in terms of value for money. Quite a difference actually and as fresh as you are going to get it.

Oh and Jackson, stick him on ignore like the rest of us.

I do so hate a sore loser.

Theno's favourite pastime is taking threads off on strange tangents by being deliberatly confrontational and self righteous.

Kettle calling pot or what!!! I think I've heard it all now Buckyban.

[thenodrog]

Quote Jackson

SORRY OLD BOY - YOU'VE TOTALLY LOST YOUR THREAD HERE. WE WERE USING THE STRAW YARD AS A SURROGATE FOR A DRIER, MORE AEROBIC, SUBSTRATE ON WHICH THE COWS PUTS ITS FEET/MG's - i.e: PASTURE.

Cmon Jackson old bean I didnt lose the thread at all it was you that chose to highlight the situation by providing reference and links to articles relating to straw yards. Here ….

http://www.brfcs.co.uk/mb/index.php/topic/23706-venkys-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__973714

But if you want to discuss cows at pasture why dont you go and sit on your lawn all night tonight and well continue this discussion in the morning? Better still how about pointlessly standing around outside for the rest of the week in deep mud, pouring rain and the freezing temperatures forecasted whilst watching the grass NOT grow for all the rest of this week too?

p.s. I don't want to be harsh so if you can find a tree I'll allow you to stand under that.

Quote Jackson

DON'T REALLY NEED TO. I'LL GO OFF MY OWN PROF. EXPERIENCE IN EPIDEMIOLOGY AND PATHOLOGY (DipRCPath FRCPath Dipl.ACVP) AND "IN THE FIELD" EXPERIENCE THANKS.

Now Im tempted to remind you that no one likes a smart arse much less an intellectual bully but Ill refrain and simply ask you why you wasted all that intelligence when you could have been a doctor? Ill bet your damned peeved when you see what they can earn these days.

[Jackson]

Quote Jackson

“SORRY OLD BOY - YOU'VE TOTALLY LOST YOUR THREAD HERE. WE WERE USING THE STRAW YARD AS A SURROGATE FOR A DRIER, MORE AEROBIC, SUBSTRATE ON WHICH THE COWS PUTS ITS FEET/MG's - i.e: PASTURE. “

C’mon Jackson old bean I didn’t lose the thread at all it was you that chose to highlight the situation by providing reference and links to articles relating to straw yards. Here ….

http://www.brfcs.co.uk/mb/index.php/topic/23706-venkys-discussion/page__view__findpost__p__973714

YES - AS I SAID - AS A SURROGTAE FOR A DRIER AND MORE AEROBIC SUBSTRATE

But if you want to discuss cows at pasture why don’t you go and sit on your lawn all night tonight and we’ll continue this discussion in the morning? Better still how about pointlessly standing around outside for the rest of the week in deep mud, pouring rain and the freezing temperatures forecasted whilst watching the grass NOT grow for all the rest of this week too?

p.s. I don't want to be harsh so if you can find a tree I'll allow you to stand under that.

MANY COWS ARE NOW HOUSED INSIDE FOR A GOOD PROPORTION OF THE DAY NOW ANYWAY - IT IS NEARLY WINTER - I THOUGHT YOU KNEW ABOUT FARMING?

Quote Jackson

“DON'T REALLY NEED TO. I'LL GO OFF MY OWN PROF. EXPERIENCE IN EPIDEMIOLOGY AND PATHOLOGY (DipRCPath FRCPath Dipl.ACVP) AND "IN THE FIELD" EXPERIENCE THANKS.”

Now I’m tempted to remind you that no one likes a smart arse

OH, THE IRONY!!!!!!!!!!!!

much less an intellectual bully

AND THERE AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!

but I’ll refrain and simply ask you why you wasted all that intelligence when you could have been a doctor? I’ll bet your damned peeved when you see what they can earn these days.

OH, BUT DEAR BOY - YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I EARN

[bellamy11]

Now I’m tempted to remind you that no one likes a smart arse much less an intellectual bully

I'm keeping that one

[thenodrog]

"MANY COWS ARE NOW HOUSED INSIDE FOR A GOOD PROPORTION OF THE DAY NOW ANYWAY - IT IS NEARLY WINTER"

Exactly. You are getting there. Do you agree / disagree that if cattle housing is to be designed to provide a suitable, comfortable, welfare friendly environment for 200+ days of British winter then by definition it must be suitable for 365?

btw Old boy? ... Dear Boy??? wtf? You sound like a cross between Noel Coward and Siegfied Farnon! Sorry but I have a lovely mental picture of you wearing a cravat, smoking jacket and spats with your entire arm stuck up a cows arse!

[Jackson]

"MANY COWS ARE NOW HOUSED INSIDE FOR A GOOD PROPORTION OF THE DAY NOW ANYWAY - IT IS NEARLY WINTER"

Exactly. You are getting there. Do you agree / disagree that if cattle housing is to be designed to provide a suitable, comfortable, welfare friendly environment for 200+ days of British winter then by definition it must be suitable for 365?

Disagree, as they aren't inside for 200+ days, are they. BTW, how would you propose feeding all these indoor cattle? Silage/conc's? Any idea of the land requirements to produce the amounts needed? Kind of pi$$es on your cheap feeding the growing population theory.

And I'm still waiting for your definition of "digi" farmer's slang.....

btw Old boy? ... Dear Boy??? wtf? You sound like a cross between Noel Coward and Siegfied Farnon! Sorry but I have a lovely mental picture of you wearing a cravat, smoking jacket and spats with your entire arm stuck up a cows arse!

And, dear old chap, I've actually been trying to work out your "profession". Do indulge me.

You post late at night with seemingly endless time to research (often erroneous) debating material - this leads me to think that you're retired and single, perhaps a little overweight (just how I imagine your good self) and with a so-so level of "general" knowledge leading you to wrongly assume that you can invest debate into matters of which you know a little, but not much.

Furthermore, you come through as overtly cantankerous with a tenacity to rebuke others' opinions for pleasure and an inability to allow the improper use, by other messageboard members, of spelling and grammer.

So I've worked it out:

You were a supply teacher, no?

[K-Hod]

Any chance of getting this thread closed? It's turned into a slanging match involving the bitterest man alive, plus it has zero relevance to football.

It's just another opportunity for people to pick holes in prospective new owners......