[Archived] The Dawn Of A New Era

[philipl]

Kelbo- they said they would keep the current management, how does JW stepping down show that they were lying, fact is JW has made a statement confirming what I said, now are you calling JW a liar? I posed a question about JW and the Benni money, was JW lying again? Circumstances change and thus decisions have to be made, as you said yourself!

Finally I gave four reasons in an earlier post as to why I was positive about Venkys and I still am.

Now you are being silly!

[darwenblueswearehere]

Steve Kean has been given a chance. He's the appointed manager, so we have no choice but to give him a chance.

As to earning fan support, so far he has had 9 PL games to prove himself, with a 10th this Saturday. Since December 18, his PL record is 3 wins, 1 draw and 5 losses. If he wins the Newcastle match his 10 game run will be a respectable 1.3 points/match. If he loses, then it will be a relegation performance 1 point/match. A draw would result in an ambigous 1.1 points/match.

I believe a 10 match run is a fairly respectable, albeit provisional, data set for an unproven manager. So neither he nor his supporters should complain if all heck breaks lose in the event of a loss but, in fairness, the pro-Sam crowd (including me) should acknowledge that perhaps he has the makings in the event of a win.

Big Sam once said this a results oriented business. I believe that to be true, as it is in most businesses. Its up to Kean to earn his support by getting results. I believe most of us are watching and waiting to form hard opinions as to his capabilities (putting aside the manner of his appointment).

One match shouldn't provide such a swing in opinion!! Also, 'his supporters' (Keans') is a curious turn of phrase. I say give him a chance but I'm a Rovers supporter first and foremost. I'm not really into comparing Kean and Sam, but to put 'the results' into a little bit of perspective (factoring in the fact that the football is undeniably easier on the eye under Kean), here is how Kean's 9 games compare to Sam's against the same opposition last season:

For the sake of argument you can swap any of the relegated teams for West Brom....but let's pick the Dingles as that gives Sam the most favourable comparison.

Kean's current record is 10 points from the 9 games, so let's look at Sam's in the same fixtures:

West Ham (H) 0-0

Stoke (H) 0-0

Liverpool (H) 0-0

Spurs (H) 0-2

Dingles (H) 3-2

Sunderland (A) 1-2

Chelsea (A) 0-5

Wigan (A) 1-1

Dingles (A) 1-0

Totals: For 6, Against 12, Points 10

Kean's totals from the same games: For 12, Against 15, Points 10.

Irrespective of 'the manner of his appointment' - this would presumably be the case whoever had got the job after Sam in your eyes - I think you are placing too much emphasis on the Newcastle game. Understandable, but still bordering on knee-jerk.

[Exiled in Toronto]

If 10 games is the yardstick, Kendall would have been sacked and who knows if we would have ever come back up from the 3rd. Furphy also if memory serves. We lost 6 in a row under Kenny in the promo season also, perhaps he should have gone.

End of season is a time to form an initial view, not that we can do anything about it anyway.

[Craigman]

Fabiano lined up

[Balwer]

Fabiano lined up

Of course we could just replace Fabiano in that article with any aging Brazilian star between now and summer, I am guessing tribalfootball will be doing just that.

[darwenblueswearehere]

If 10 games is the yardstick, Kendall would have been sacked and who knows if we would have ever come back up from the 3rd. Furphy also if memory serves. We lost 6 in a row under Kenny in the promo season also, perhaps he should have gone.

End of season is a time to form an initial view, not that we can do anything about it anyway.

A very, very sensible post.

[Kelbo]

A very, very sensible post.

So Sam went after 4?????????

[Steve Moss]

If 10 games is the yardstick, Kendall would have been sacked and who knows if we would have ever come back up from the 3rd. Furphy also if memory serves. We lost 6 in a row under Kenny in the promo season also, perhaps he should have gone.

End of season is a time to form an initial view, not that we can do anything about it anyway.

So we wait until we know whether we are relegated or not before we decide? I decline the invitation to trust blindly.

As to forming knee jerk reactions based upon one game, Newcastle, that is incorrect. Kean has had multiple opportunities to get the points which would have reduced the importance of the Newcastle match. He has failed to do so. Any pressure is based upon performances to date, not one match alone.

If we lose to Newcastle at Ewood, exactly where do you see 9+ points coming from?

One match shouldn't provide such a swing in opinion!! Also, 'his supporters' (Keans') is a curious turn of phrase. I say give him a chance but I'm a Rovers supporter first and foremost. . . .

The attempt to cast your debate opponents as disloyal to the Rovers, even by implication, does you no credit.

Further, to point out the illogic of your position, you want to wait until the end of the season to judge Kean. This implies:

1. It is ok for a fan to judge a manager, but they shouldn't do it too soon. And you apparently feel empowered to decide when it is too soon, and hold all others to that, as opposed to any given fan using their independent judgement.

2. It is more important to give Kean a chance, than it is to protect the club from the risk of relegation. This seems to imply that your loyalty is more to Kean than the club.

I do not believe that you believe either 1 or 2. However, if you throw stones based upon implication in a poorly perceived effort to score points, keep in mind that is a two way street. Best not to go there.

[Exiled in Toronto]

So we wait until we know whether we are relegated or not before we decide? I decline the invitation to trust blindly.

As to forming knee jerk reactions based upon one game, Newcastle, that is incorrect. Kean has had multiple opportunities to get the points which would have reduced the importance of the Newcastle match. He has failed to do so. Any pressure is based upon performances to date, not one match alone.

If we lose to Newcastle at Ewood, exactly where do you see 9+ points coming from?

Who's 'we'? You can decide after Saturday if you want - it won't change anything. I'll decide later thanks. And if I knew in detail which matches we would win, I'd be typing this from my yacht in the Bahamas. Football is unpredictable - that's why we like it.

[Steve Moss]

Who's 'we'? You can decide after Saturday if you want - it won't change anything. I'll decide later thanks. And if I knew in detail which matches we would win, I'd be typing this from my yacht in the Bahamas. Football is unpredictable - that's why we like it.

Since we are apparently devolving into Clinton-esque word splicing, I'll ask your question. Who is 'we'?

As to my usuage, at a minimum I speak for myself. If others agree, so much the better. But if it makes you feel better, and as I try to be fair minded, you may adopt any interpetation you like. I promise to not hold it against you.

Moving on to the point, on the plus side Kean has, in the PL, defeated WBA (twice) and Liverpool. He deserves to be lauded for Liverpool. WBA is to be expected, considering they're near the bottom. We can also count a home draw against West Ham as being technically a 'plus' (though it is hard to accept anything positive about drawing at home against dead last West Ham).

On the downside, he has been defeated by a depleted Tottenham, relegation candidate Wigan, and, at home, Stoke. In fairness, Sunderland and Chelsea are difficult away games.

Looking at the nine PL matches he has managed to date, we've lost at home to our mid-table rivals. We draw, at home, to the weakest of the weak. If we lose again at home to mid-table Newcastle, I'd be very concerned that is an indication of a pattern. It would certainly confirm the departure from the "Fortress Ewood" mentality we enjoyed not so long ago. And as our away record is abysmal under either Sam or Kean, where and how do we make up the difference?

I do not want the Rovers to fail. By extension I do not want Kean to fail. I hope we inflict a 7-0 thrashing upon Newcastle. But if we fail to defeat Newcastle at home, then how can we reasonably expect 9 plus points from the following:

Villa A

Fulham A

Blackpool H

Arsenal A

Birmingham H

Everton A

ManC H

Bolton H

West Ham A

ManU H

Wolves A

If we can't beat Newcastle at home, and considering our other defeats over the last two months, than I submit to you that unless major changes occur quickly thereafter, we could well be facing the Dawn of a New Era. One in the Championship. And I hope our new owners know the difference between the Champions League and the Championship, considering the alleged langauge barriers that have been thrown up in their defense.

We certainly will not be looking at a mid-table finish without defeating Newcastle, unless you think we can reasonably expect to collect 14-19 points following a Newcastle defeat?

In summary, it is my position that if you want unpredictable, play craps. While football certainly contains an element of chance, results are also influenced by talent and hard work (our slogan) and managerial ability, whether in tactics, squad selection and substitutions and man management. If Kean can't get a mid-table club (which the Rovers certainly are, better if you believe our owners) to perform as a mid-table club, then we need a change in management. I would prefer that it not be necessary and Kean start posting some results. But if a change becomes necessary, than I suggest that it occur while something can still be done, not when we are on life support.

[imy9]

Now you are being silly!

Have you got an answer about the Benni money?

[philipl]

Have you got an answer about the Benni money?

Yes- review of the accounts coming shortly.

[imy9]

What about JW saying one thing in public then doing a 360 about turn by saying something completely different, contradicting his own comment?

[bellamy11]

But if we fail to defeat Newcastle at home, then how can we reasonably expect 9 plus points from the following:

Villa A

Fulham A

Blackpool H

Arsenal A

Birmingham H

Everton A

ManC H

Bolton H

West Ham A

ManU H

Wolves A

If we can't beat Newcastle at home, and considering our other defeats over the last two months, than I submit to you that unless major changes occur quickly thereafter, we could well be facing the Dawn of a New Era. One in the Championship.

Because styles make fights, and you cannot apply A > B, B > C therefore A > C logic to winning football matches.

If Man United lose away at Wolves - who were and still are bottom - blowing a goal advantage no less, how can they reasonably be expected to win at places such as Anfield and White Hart Lane, nevermind the Emirates and Stamford Bridge? But you wouldn't bet against them.

Teams don't have classifications. The league is always in flux. On any given day, any side can beat any side - after all, most sides are filled with international footballers who are capable of great things when they play to the best of their abilities. If we can't beat Newcastle at home then we'll get the 9 points elsewhere.

This argument was made at around this time last year - where after an abysmal run of form people wondered whether we'd win any of our last 10 games. In the end, we drew with a Chelsea team who was regularly putting 6 or 7 past their opposition, drew with United, beat Arsenal, won at Villa, and generally played some very good stuff.

If football ever becomes a sport where you know the result in advance then that's the day I stop watching. We've got to the stage where away at the very big clubs seems a write-off, although every so often a West Brom or a Newcastle will win at the Emirates. But once you move outside of the elite every team has some startling vulnerabilities that can be exploited on any given day.

[philipl]

What about JW saying one thing in public then doing a 360 about turn by saying something completely different, contradicting his own comment?

I am struggling to think of examples- perhaps you can provide ones with evidence and quotations.

In any case, he was running a particularly tricky to manage £50m+ turnover business and as they say "###### happens". What you plan to do is not always what turns out. I am sure there will be far more cases of about turns (and more fundamental changes at that) between what was said and what was done in the first 13 weeks of Venky's than in the 13 years of Williams.

[imy9]

I am struggling to think of examples- perhaps you can provide ones with evidence and quotations.

In any case, he was running a particularly tricky to manage £50m+ turnover business and as they say "###### happens". What you plan to do is not always what turns out. I am sure there will be far more cases of about turns (and more fundamental changes at that) between what was said and what was done in the first 13 weeks of Venky's than in the 13 years of Williams.

The example I gave is documented in the LET, I am sure there are others but as it's JW the benefit of the doubt is always given to him, he was also chairman for 13 years and English is his first language, Venkys are football owners for the first time they have no prior experience and are EAL speakers, my point is that these two points need to be taken into account and the owners given the benefit of the doubt. Your sources told you that Venkys are highly respected business people, what I have read confirms that too, we need to be patient. Finally, and this is not directed at you, all this nonsense about our family image being destroyed by Venkys, the firing of Parkes and the manner was a far more darker period and it was JW'a fault.

[47er]

The example I gave is documented in the LET, I am sure there are others but as it's JW the benefit of the doubt is always given to him, he was also chairman for 13 years and English is his first language, Venkys are football owners for the first time they have no prior experience and are EAL speakers, my point is that these two points need to be taken into account and the owners given the benefit of the doubt. Your sources told you that Venkys are highly respected business people, what I have read confirms that too, we need to be patient. Finally, and this is not directed at you, all this nonsense about our family image being destroyed by Venkys, the firing of Parkes and the manner was a far more darker period and it was JW'a fault.

Just wondering--do you feel Venkys have made any mistakes since they took over?

[Steve Moss]

Because styles make fights, and you cannot apply A > B, B > C therefore A > C logic to winning football matches.

If Man United lose away at Wolves - who were and still are bottom - blowing a goal advantage no less, how can they reasonably be expected to win at places such as Anfield and White Hart Lane, nevermind the Emirates and Stamford Bridge? But you wouldn't bet against them.

Teams don't have classifications. The league is always in flux. On any given day, any side can beat any side - . . .

This is all mostly true. However, it is not entirely true. Yes, ManU can be defeated by Wolves. The odds in favor of such a win are remote, as indicated by ManU's unbeaten run this season until meeting the Wolves.

The reason for that is that talent, work ethic and managerial ability (tactics, selection, substitutions, and man motivation) all influence the roll of the dice. Yes, it is possible to beat the odds. No, it is not likely. Which is why ManU, Chelsea and Arsenal trade the trophy amongst themselves, with one year Rovers raining on their parade. I would rather not trust our PL survival to a long shot roll of the dice.

Leaving aside the manner of his appointment, I have tried to keep an open mind on Kean. But that does not mean that I (or you) should blind ourselves to reality. The quality of our squad has either stayed the same or improved since Sam had us on course for either comfortable mid-table or, maybe, top 10. The only substantial question mark since that time [in terms of results] is the ability of his replacement, Kean.

If we lose to Newcastle, we will be in the relegation battle, if you believe Roberts, Emerton and the league fixture table. A far cry from mid-table or top 10 we were on course for under Sam. If that happens, are you seriously content with trusting Kean to steer us to mid-table (let alone top 10)? And if so, on what basis? Random luck? That JA and/or some Scots speak highly of him? His good press conferences?

Again, I hope Kean takes our recent PL form of LWLWLL to WLWLLW. I would be very pleased. But if instead he takes us to WLWLLL with away matches to Villa and Fulham to follow, I will have severe reservations. I view Newcastle as being a massive match with serious ramifications, for us and Kean, if we cannot pull out a win.

[imy9]

Just wondering--do you feel Venkys have made any mistakes since they took over?

Ofcourse they have! Always look at the intention of people before you judge them, as said by my dad lol. Seriously I think their hearts are in the right place and they want us to succeed, there is no instant cash prize with Rovers, they need to develop us on and off the field and I think once the shirt deal is announced we will see stage 1 in action, followed by the marque signing- potentially Fabiano in a Rovers shirt, that would be magical.

[BPF]

Textbook PR

The example I gave is documented in the LET, I am sure there are others but as it's JW the benefit of the doubt is always given to him, he was also chairman for 13 years and English is his first language, Venkys are football owners for the first time they have no prior experience and are EAL speakers, my point is that these two points need to be taken into account and the owners given the benefit of the doubt. Your sources told you that Venkys are highly respected business people, what I have read confirms that too, we need to be patient. Finally, and this is not directed at you, all this nonsense about our family image being destroyed by Venkys, the firing of Parkes and the manner was a far more darker period and it was JW'a fault.

Someone has gone through teacher training

[imy9]

Textbook PR

Someone has gone through teacher training

I was wondering when someone would pick that up!

You are right BPF, excellent PR, backs up my assertion that their heart is in the right place.

[darwenblueswearehere]

This is all mostly true. However, it is not entirely true. Yes, ManU can be defeated by Wolves. The odds in favor of such a win are remote, as indicated by ManU's unbeaten run this season until meeting the Wolves.

The reason for that is that talent, work ethic and managerial ability (tactics, selection, substitutions, and man motivation) all influence the roll of the dice. Yes, it is possible to beat the odds. No, it is not likely. Which is why ManU, Chelsea and Arsenal trade the trophy amongst themselves, with one year Rovers raining on their parade. I would rather not trust our PL survival to a long shot roll of the dice.

Leaving aside the manner of his appointment, I have tried to keep an open mind on Kean. But that does not mean that I (or you) should blind ourselves to reality. The quality of our squad has either stayed the same or improved since Sam had us on course for either comfortable mid-table or, maybe, top 10. The only substantial question mark since that time [in terms of results] is the ability of his replacement, Kean.

If we lose to Newcastle, we will be in the relegation battle, if you believe Roberts, Emerton and the league fixture table. A far cry from mid-table or top 10 we were on course for under Sam. If that happens, are you seriously content with trusting Kean to steer us to mid-table (let alone top 10)? And if so, on what basis? Random luck? That JA and/or some Scots speak highly of him? His good press conferences?

Again, I hope Kean takes our recent PL form of LWLWLL to WLWLLW. I would be very pleased. But if instead he takes us to WLWLLL with away matches to Villa and Fulham to follow, I will have severe reservations. I view Newcastle as being a massive match with serious ramifications, for us and Kean, if we cannot pull out a win.

Don't underestimate the loss of young Jones in Kean's first game.

[darwenblueswearehere]

So we wait until we know whether we are relegated or not before we decide? I decline the invitation to trust blindly.

As to forming knee jerk reactions based upon one game, Newcastle, that is incorrect. Kean has had multiple opportunities to get the points which would have reduced the importance of the Newcastle match. He has failed to do so. Any pressure is based upon performances to date, not one match alone.

If we lose to Newcastle at Ewood, exactly where do you see 9+ points coming from?

The attempt to cast your debate opponents as disloyal to the Rovers, even by implication, does you no credit.

Further, to point out the illogic of your position, you want to wait until the end of the season to judge Kean. This implies:

1. It is ok for a fan to judge a manager, but they shouldn't do it too soon. And you apparently feel empowered to decide when it is too soon, and hold all others to that, as opposed to any given fan using their independent judgement.

2. It is more important to give Kean a chance, than it is to protect the club from the risk of relegation. This seems to imply that your loyalty is more to Kean than the club.

I do not believe that you believe either 1 or 2. However, if you throw stones based upon implication in a poorly perceived effort to score points, keep in mind that is a two way street. Best not to go there.

I haven't thrown any stones, nor have I accused anyone of being disloyal, I simply pointed out that describing someone as a 'Kean supporter' was a curious turn of phrase - and I stand by that remark. I'm not a 'Kean supporter', I'm a Rovers supporter. The knee-jerk reaction comment wasn't particularly aimed at you, though you do seem to have taken it personally. It was in response to the growing number of posters who are setting the Newcastle game up as a 'win and Kean's ok, lose and he's a dud' sort of match. I find that incredible. I don't disagree that if we lose it we MIGHT get dragged into a relegation battle. But it is only a possibility at this stage. As for predicting which games might provide us with our required 9 points if we against Newcastle - we could get them from any of our remaining games, including Man Utd at Ewood. Arsenal away looks like the only certain defeat to me, and even Newcastle and that team everyone has written off because Kean's team has beaten them twice, have both already won there this season so maybe I'm being hasty with that prediction an 'all!? Who's to say 9 points is enough, or necessary anyway??

Your so-called points 1 and 2 aren't particularly well thought out. For a start each individual fan can decide for themselves when and how to judge a manager - they don't need me or you to tell them that, and I'm certainly not telling you you're wrong, per se. I'm simply asking

a. whether 9 games is long enough to judge, and

b. whether Kean's record is as bad as a lot of people are making out.

[Kelbo]

I haven't thrown any stones, nor have I accused anyone of being disloyal, I simply pointed out that describing someone as a 'Kean supporter' was a curious turn of phrase - and I stand by that remark. I'm not a 'Kean supporter', I'm a Rovers supporter. The knee-jerk reaction comment wasn't particularly aimed at you, though you do seem to have taken it personally. It was in response to the growing number of posters who are setting the Newcastle game up as a 'win and Kean's ok, lose and he's a dud' sort of match. I find that incredible. I don't disagree that if we lose it we MIGHT get dragged into a relegation battle. But it is only a possibility at this stage. As for predicting which games might provide us with our required 9 points if we against Newcastle - we could get them from any of our remaining games, including Man Utd at Ewood. Arsenal away looks like the only certain defeat to me, and even Newcastle and that team everyone has written off because Kean's team has beaten them twice, have both already won there this season so maybe I'm being hasty with that prediction an 'all!? Who's to say 9 points is enough, or necessary anyway??

Your so-called points 1 and 2 aren't particularly well thought out. For a start each individual fan can decide for themselves when and how to judge a manager - they don't need me or you to tell them that, and I'm certainly not telling you you're wrong, per se. I'm simply asking

a. whether 9 games is long enough to judge, and

b. whether Kean's record is as bad as a lot of people are making out.

I do know for a fact that Kean has followed Sams way of targeting winnable games in so much as little points tables at a given time, I can tell you in all honesty, that we are 6 points adrift of the target at the moment, however, as you say, games where we would not be expected to pick up points we may do so. Balanced against all this of course is this, a loss against Newcastle would make things very sticky for Rovers and March and April are renowned for shock results here and there and lots of draws!

[darwenblueswearehere]

I do know for a fact that Kean has followed Sams way of targeting winnable games in so much as little points tables at a given time, I can tell you in all honesty, that we are 6 points adrift of the target at the moment, however, as you say, games where we would not be expected to pick up points we may do so. Balanced against all this of course is this, a loss against Newcastle would make things very sticky for Rovers and March and April are renowned for shock results here and there and lots of draws!

That's the thing Kelbo, we just don't know really do we? We might actually pick up some away points in the run-in. Fulham is a winnable game, despite their recent upturn in form.

Football supporters, especially Rovers fans, tend to err on the pessimistic side when looking at forthcoming fixtures. I'm fairly sure we'll be perfectly safe........