[Archived] The Dawn Of A New Era

[John]

John, I'm not being critical of Sam, certainly not at this level. I'm querying his ability to take us further.

In addition to that to add attractive, eye catching performances.

To me, he's been a saviour of the Rovers post Ince, but we need to step up.

Is Sam the guy to do that, with or without a significant cash input?

Times have changed, however he has done it before when managing Bolton (i.e. finished higher up the league).

[Majiball]

Well the dawn of the new era didn't last long.

Perhaps someone could rename the thread "business as usual"?

[Fife Rover]

As the final whistle went at O.T. yesterday I was like the rest if you almost apopoleptic with rage and frustration at the apparent way that a Rovers team had gone there and apparently just laid down without a fight and allowed the hated Manure to simply push us aside like they were playing some pub side after closing time.

But I managed to resist the urge to fly to the keyboard and really let rip about inadequate useless worthless spineless overpaid numpties etc., and now in the cold light of dawn (well it is snowing hard) I felt just a little more rational, and having had time to think things through (for Theno''s sake), I can now begin to see things as they really are (at least I hope I can). So here goes:

It would be so easy after that non-display of football by Rovers to immediately jump to the conclusion that all of this was Sam's fault because of his tactics etc, and there is no doubt that he did get things wrong to some extent. But having said that and being clinical in your analysis of his team choice on the day; how much choice did he have in players that could have guaranteed a better performance or result?

OK given the team we put out should they have been expected to do better? IMO the answer has to be a resounding YES!

BUT hang on; there is another consideration here as well................ Utd had just managed to scrape a win at Ibrox against a "mere SPL" team that had really had a go at them, and could just as easily have scored a goal or two of their own and maybe won it themselves. It was that close. Now knowing SAF does anyone believe for one second that Utd and SAF returned to Manc land in high glee and full of self-congratulations. NOT A CHANCE!

You can bet your house on it that the Utd players were subjected to the full fury of SAF's "hairdrier" treatmen PLUS... and then some! And the outcome of that would have been that the team he put out against Rovers was under no illusions about what their playing future at OT woul be if they failed to not only take all 3 points off Rovers but do so in some style and by a good margin as well.

So as I see it that would be the scenario facing the Rovers "innocents" as they arrived at OT full of hope if not expectation, and again given the team choices Sam had there was always only going to be one winner. And so it transpired.... the ONLY real shock/disappointment being the actual scoreline.

OK the Rovers were very unlucky to concede a dubious goal after just 71 seconds of play and probably felt they should have been given a freekick for a foul on Robbo, but having said that ...what else can you say in defence of the Rovers performance? IMO absolutely nothing!! The rest of the match it was a classic case of men against boys. Utd were really up for it (they had to be), and Rovers were quite simply outplayed and outclassed by a team of very good and very expensive players who were playing for their own futures at OT. Result = No CONTEST!! Endof match; end of story!!

So I just hope the the Venkys in their considerations of Sam's future actually take all these factors into account. I have little doubt that they will because it would very silly to judge a man on one disastrous result however bad it seems at the time. They need to look carefully at what Sam has done in his time at Rovers as a whole before making any kind of decision and I have no doubts at all that that is exactly what they will do.

[bigbrandjohn]

We are 13th.. having spent no money.. we beat villa a week ago.. and so many calling for sams head.

Sure we lost too a historic defeat, but this is not the uncle jack days, we are no longer the biggest spenders Berbatov cost more than our whole damn team.

Blimey talk about vultures circling now new owners are in..

We have competed for a long while when we should not of done.

As for venkies.. to be honest I have my reservations, but we will be a well run mid/low table premier league side for a year or two yet.

What do we expect without the daft cheque books floating around... and venkies is too well run too do the same for us.

Good post. Venkys won't be splashing the money around and it's a strange old league this year. Ask Woy,Hughes,Moyes, they are no slouches. What truly baffles me is that our team that always battles for everything had no heart yesterday. Redemption time next week or the new owners may lose patience very quickly.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Redemption time next week or the new owners may lose patience very quickly.

New owners who know little to nothing of Football,I really do hope they are not prone to rash decision making.....what a dangerous position for our club to be put in if that be the case.

I hope to god my worse fears are not about to come true with our new owners.They appear to want to dictate our style of play and bypass the manager?

[Mattyblue]

Well this is where the experience of JW comes into play.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

But for how long though!

[LeChuck]

It really is up to Allardyce now to save his job. He will be under extra pressure to get some very good results now, as it will be a hard road to wash this historic defeat away. Which isn't exactly a bad thing for us, and it's the way it should be. Managers live and die by the results, and it's time for Sam to really show what he is made of in December.

We've got three wins out of five games, the two defeats being Tottenham and Man Utd (both away).

Obviously the way we lost this one was embarrassing and it can't be allowed to happen again, but the bigger picture isn't anywhere near as bad as people are making out.

[BuckyRover]

We've got three wins out of five games, the two defeats being Tottenham and Man Utd (both away).

Obviously the way we lost this one was embarrassing and it can't be allowed to happen again, but the bigger picture isn't anywhere near as bad as people are making out.

We now have the joint worst goal difference outside the bottom three. I thought we had improved that aspect of our game.

I find it disappointing but I certainly don't want him sacked. Saying that though, I will be incredibly surprised if his contract is renewed.

[JAL]

Venkys won't be splashing the money around and it's a strange old league this year. Ask Woy,Hughes,Moyes, they are no slouches.

What truly baffles me is that our team that always battles for everything had no heart yesterday. Redemption time next week or the new owners may lose patience very quickly.

It makes you wonder if there are any underlying problems at Rovers what with the complete lack of heart shown on saturday, suppose the next few weeks will highlight if there are any problems.

[eire3382]

Well this is where the experience of JW comes into play.

This is very important not only now in relation to over reacting to that result! but also when it comes time to bring in players. He must be strong with the new owners and make sure the right player are brought to the club and that they are players the manager wants and no one else.

[BuckyRover]

This is very important not only now in relation to over reacting to that result! but also when it comes time to bring in players. He must be strong with the new owners and make sure the right player are brought to the club and that they are players the manager wants and no one else.

Even if it's Gary O'Neill?

[/faceplant]

[Veevs]

I like this take us further comment.. shame we have not really been told anything in regards too how much they are putting in for transfers..

I doubt venkies being such a well run outfit will be throwing cash at us. My betting is they will play us as the underdog and give us enough cash too make the odd ok signing, they do love underdogs out in India.

If early figures are right the last thing we want at the moment is too be even dreaming of getting rid of Sam (the payout alone would be a fair chunk of our small transfer budget), especially if the massive 5m transfer budget for Jan is correct.

worse goal difference.. due too one freak and yes embarrasing loss, but it was against ManU scored mostly by a player with a point too prove who cost more than our team... Berbs might be a lazy little ponse but when he has one of those games there is not much you can do about it short of putting him a straight jacket. Recent wins against an in form Newcastle and a decent Villa side have impressed, lets see what the fat dude comes up with its soon too be christmas after all.

[Al]

I like this take us further comment.. shame we have not really been told anything in regards too how much they are putting in for transfers..

I doubt venkies being such a well run outfit will be throwing cash at us. My betting is they will play us as the underdog and give us enough cash too make the odd ok signing, they do love underdogs out in India.

If early figures are right the last thing we want at the moment is too be even dreaming of getting rid of Sam (the payout alone would be a fair chunk of our small transfer budget), especially if the massive 5m transfer budget for Jan is correct.

worse goal difference.. due too one freak and yes embarrasing loss, but it was against ManU scored mostly by a player with a point too prove who cost more than our team... Berbs might be a lazy little ponse but when he has one of those games there is not much you can do about it short of putting him a straight jacket. Recent wins against an in form Newcastle and a decent Villa side have impressed, lets see what the fat dude comes up with its soon too be christmas after all.

It is precisely because it is against ManU that makes it so difficult to accept.

[Steve Moss]

It makes you wonder if there are any underlying problems at Rovers what with the complete lack of heart shown on saturday, suppose the next few weeks will highlight if there are any problems.

I have a theory about Saturday, and other thrashings we've taken during away games against the "Big Clubs". This theory is backed up by absolutely no evidence, so take it with a grain of salt. But, as a Rover fan, I don't feel I need evidence or facts to express a theory, so here it goes anyway.

Sam is a 'scientific' coach. He plays the odds, no matter how dreary that makes the game. Against the Big Clubs away, he plays for a draw knowing that he is unlikely to get it but calculating it gives the club the best chance to pick up a point. Even if the odds are against a point, the odds are even more against a win, so let's take the safe bet and put 10 men behind the ball.

Professional soccer players are, on the other hand, egoists. Even PL average player is an incredibly gifted athlete by the standards of most. As these athletes spend the formative years of their lives playing against those less gifted, they are used to thinking of themselves as the best. Even PL standard players are not used to be treated as run of the mill or that victory is beyond their grasp. This is reinforced in their daily lifes away from the club, and perhaps even at the club excepting the 90 minutes they spend on the pitch against similar opposition.

Sam's analysis of the odds and what tactics are best suited to maximize a return is probably dead accurate. Sam is not a stupid man and has spend his life studying the game. And on most occassions these pragmatic tactics don't conflict with the psychology of the players and in 50% plus of his matches Sam is going for the win (winning half the time and losing the other half results in a 1.5 point per match return, very respectable which should return an above average table position). Keep in mind that playing to win doesn't mean that you do, just that Sam figures the odds of a win are good enough that on balance the squad should go for it, as opposed to a more 'negative' let's play for a point and be content with that attitude.

A problem arises, however, when Sam's pragmatism conflicts with his some of players' ego/pride/sense of worth. When (and if- no one knows what is said in the locker room) Sam gives instructions which effectively say, or are translated as saying, let's play for a point (perhaps couched in terms of let's go for a sneaky last minute win, to disguise his actual intent and lack of confidence in a win) he's telling his players (in their view) that they aren't good enough. As most of his players are young (under 30), they are used to seeing themselves as supermen. When a father figure (which is what a manager is) tells these young men they aren't good enough (or lays out a strategy which they interpret to mean that), he cuts the heart out of the team. They become more and more defensive, turtle up, move slower, and are less likely to comply with whatever attacking (or counter-attacking) instructions that Sam may have laid out. After all, they aren't good enough so why bother trying beyond going through the motions.

I don't think the above theory is true of the Salgados or the other 'older' hands Sam likes to bring in and rehabilitate. They have the years and experience to be more pragmatic about things. I also don't think the above theory holds true of the Morris' on the squad, either because they lack the experience to translate Sam's instructions as meaning that they aren't good enough or they're just so excited to be playing in a PL match they don't care. But for the younger players who've been around for bit but not so long that they can be considered old hands, it might be something of a body blow.

I'm not saying the above is true. I'm not in the locker room and don't know what is said or how it is said. As an outside observer, I'm trying to come up with some explanation as to why we sometimes go against the better teams with everything we've got (usually at home) as compared to us rolling over and playing dead away. So heere's one theory, in which Sam's 100% pragmatic, scientific approach clashes with the passions and egos of a select group of his players. Heart wars with brain, with disastrous consequences.

[philipl]

Spot on smoss going by basic human psychology.

Sam just did not carry the dressing room with him for Saturday's tactics and we got murdered. I bet the players felt the same way as the fans and were fancying giving it a real go then hit a 2pm road block in the dressing room.

Yes Sam was being sensible and rational and he might have won the intellectual argument but he lost the emotional one. However, that still doesn't excuse Chimbonda putting in the worst individual PL performance since Ali Da or whatever he was called at Southampton.

What Sam does with him and Goulon in terms of restoring them both will be a massive challenge.

[PAFELL]

I have a theory about Saturday, and other thrashings we've taken during away games against the "Big Clubs". This theory is backed up by absolutely no evidence, so take it with a grain of salt. But, as a Rover fan, I don't feel I need evidence or facts to express a theory, so here it goes anyway.

Sam is a 'scientific' coach. He plays the odds, no matter how dreary that makes the game. Against the Big Clubs away, he plays for a draw knowing that he is unlikely to get it but calculating it gives the club the best chance to pick up a point. Even if the odds are against a point, the odds are even more against a win, so let's take the safe bet and put 10 men behind the ball.

Professional soccer players are, on the other hand, egoists. Even PL average player is an incredibly gifted athlete by the standards of most. As these athletes spend the formative years of their lives playing against those less gifted, they are used to thinking of themselves as the best. Even PL standard players are not used to be treated as run of the mill or that victory is beyond their grasp. This is reinforced in their daily lifes away from the club, and perhaps even at the club excepting the 90 minutes they spend on the pitch against similar opposition.

Sam's analysis of the odds and what tactics are best suited to maximize a return is probably dead accurate. Sam is not a stupid man and has spend his life studying the game. And on most occassions these pragmatic tactics don't conflict with the psychology of the players and in 50% plus of his matches Sam is going for the win (winning half the time and losing the other half results in a 1.5 point per match return, very respectable which should return an above average table position). Keep in mind that playing to win doesn't mean that you do, just that Sam figures the odds of a win are good enough that on balance the squad should go for it, as opposed to a more 'negative' let's play for a point and be content with that attitude.

A problem arises, however, when Sam's pragmatism conflicts with his some of players' ego/pride/sense of worth. When (and if- no one knows what is said in the locker room) Sam gives instructions which effectively say, or are translated as saying, let's play for a point (perhaps couched in terms of let's go for a sneaky last minute win, to disguise his actual intent and lack of confidence in a win) he's telling his players (in their view) that they aren't good enough. As most of his players are young (under 30), they are used to seeing themselves as supermen. When a father figure (which is what a manager is) tells these young men they aren't good enough (or lays out a strategy which they interpret to mean that), he cuts the heart out of the team. They become more and more defensive, turtle up, move slower, and are less likely to comply with whatever attacking (or counter-attacking) instructions that Sam may have laid out. After all, they aren't good enough so why bother trying beyond going through the motions.

I don't think the above theory is true of the Salgados or the other 'older' hands Sam likes to bring in and rehabilitate. They have the years and experience to be more pragmatic about things. I also don't think the above theory holds true of the Morris' on the squad, either because they lack the experience to translate Sam's instructions as meaning that they aren't good enough or they're just so excited to be playing in a PL match they don't care. But for the younger players who've been around for bit but not so long that they can be considered old hands, it might be something of a body blow.

I'm not saying the above is true. I'm not in the locker room and don't know what is said or how it is said. As an outside observer, I'm trying to come up with some explanation as to why we sometimes go against the better teams with everything we've got (usually at home) as compared to us rolling over and playing dead away. So heere's one theory, in which Sam's 100% pragmatic, scientific approach clashes with the passions and egos of a select group of his players. Heart wars with brain, with disastrous consequences.

But it also batters the confidences. Basically he is saying the the players, firstly you are not good enough to win, therefore it is pointless you trying. Secondly even though the fans pay good money to watch you do your best, it does not matter. Thirdly playing in a league all clubs are dependant on all teams trying to do their best against all the teams. Fourthly. Sending out a team that is not even trying to win, is there any diference in doing that and sending out a weakened team.

The fact is on saturday, Roves failed to even try. That is either the managers or the layers fault. Either way, it is unacceptable.

[Jackson]

Agree with the above.

The next "big" club we play, we need to go all out, sh!t or bust.

Because negativity just doesn't work. And Sam the science man has just proved it in his little experiment.

[chris]

Agree with the above.

The next "big" club we play, we need to go all out, sh!t or bust.

Because negativity just doesn't work. And Sam the science man has just proved it in his little experiment.

to be honest thats risky easier said then done, we can;t compete with Man United on their level, we can barely touch the ball.

[tony gale's mic]

I seem to remember getting a pretty good result at Eastlands playing defensive backs to the wall "negative" stuff...

[Amo]

to be honest thats risky easier said then done, we can;t compete with Man United on their level, we can barely touch the ball.

And yet West Brom could manage it.

[chris]

And yet West Brom could manage it.

Chelsea beat West Brom 6-0

[Majiball]

I seem to remember getting a pretty good result at Eastlands playing defensive backs to the wall "negative" stuff...

How have we done in all our matches away to the supposed big boys?

And yet West Brom could manage it.

If you sit back and let them play I think you do exactly what they want you too. Have a go, why not? It seems pretty evident to me that when we go away to the big un's, we most likely lose. So as opposed to letting them tickle our tummies, lets try and ruffle their feathers, next time.

Chelsea beat West Brom 6-0

6 is better than 7,

[tony gale's mic]

How have we done in all our matches away to the supposed big boys?

If you sit back and let them play I think you do exactly what they want you too. Have a go, why not? It seems pretty evident to me that when we go away to the big un's, we most likely lose. So as opposed to letting them tickle our tummies, lets try and ruffle their feathers, next time.

6 is better than 7,

I seem to remember last season against Arsenal away we took the game to them, did well in the first half but still ended up being overrun in the second half and losing 6-2.

I agree we have a problem away against the big teams, but I don't think it's quite as simple as Sam saying "go on lads, have a go, take the game to them" and playing an attacking formation.

[philipl]

The important point/worrying note is Sam used up a lot of the goodwill going for him with that humiliation. No point debating the niceties- it was a humiliation in Manchester, in Blackburn, in Pune and wherever else in the world people have the best interests of Rovers at heart.

It seems the new owners have been remarkably restrained and supportive which is good news. There will have been enough sore and hurting people as it is so it sounds like they pitched it right.