[Archived] Steve Kean

[tony gale's mic]

Easily top ten? One of the most outrageous statements that I have read on this MB.

1. Ferguson

2. Mancini

3. Wenger

4. Carlo

5. Redknapp

6. Coyle

7. Hodgson

8. Moyes

9. Houllier

10. Hughes

All of the above are MILES ahead of Sam, they have either won titles (7 out of 10), been more consistent (Moyes, Hughes) or play a style of football which is better (Coyle).

Which ONE of the above is Sam better than?

Hughes.

Yes Hughes was better for Rovers, although he arguably had easier conditions to work with - City weren't spending big, Spurs were in the lower reaches of the league for half of his reign, Villa as a spending force only emerged towards the end, the likes of Sunderland, Birmingham and Stoke weren't massively outspending us either.

However he did a pretty average job at City for which he got sacked harshly and has been pretty shocking at Fulham. Not exactly known for champagne football either.

Sam got Bolton to within goal difference of a Champions' League place, finished multiple times in the top 8 with them and arguably a better job than Hughes did with us, did an average job at Newcastle for which he got sacked harshly and has been a success with Rovers.

Coyle will probably end up being a better manager than Sam but until he has a good two or three seasons' worth of success at the top level then you can't say that he's proved himself yet.

Hodgson - did well with us one season but got us onto the road to relegation the next. Got Fulham to the UEFA Cup final - but then so did Schteve McLaren with Boro, performed pretty poorly in the league with an even worse away record than ours and has been doing a pretty bad job with the likes of Torres and Gerrard at Liverpool. Didn't exactly cover himself with glory at Inter and has never really performed well as manager in a major league.

[John]

BTW not saying our owners were right to get rid of Sam mid-season - but that is done now - and we need to move on and get behind the new manager.

I said last week it was time to move on - however, such is the stupidity of Kentaro/Venky's actions it is easier said than done.

Plus we could be painfully regretting their actions for a long time to come.

[mrsjansen]

he still had the golden era of talent, a top 6 side in Le Saux, Gallacher, Sutton, Sherwood, Flitcroft, Hendry, Berg, Flowers, Wilcox, Ripley.

Probably £100 million worth of talent.

P.S. I hope I spelt them names all right otherwise I face more OscarRaven insults.

P.P.S. Parkes was awesome

Not the very first time, which i think was the time we sacked Don Mckay.....plus if he had all this talent, then its hardly the fault of Steve Kean that he has been left with the players he has been left with.

[chris]

Not the very first time, which i think was the time we sacked Don Mckay.....plus if he had all this talent, then its hardly the fault of Steve Kean that he has been left with the players he has been left with.

Its not Kean fault, I think Venky should have replaced an experienced manager with an experienced manager.

Even a manager that has proven himself at lower levels over a number of years would be a risk, but this is a BIG one.

Not Kean fault, how could he say no.

Although Parkes did say no to the full time option.

[imy9]

Our away form needed improvement but as John said, most clubs our stature have similar if not worse away records. But there were definite signs of improvement this season; a deserved win at Newcastle, we played some good football at Bolton and Birmingham where bad luck and individual error cost us, a win at Blackpool where many sides have tripped up this season and a battling performance at City to get a point. Yes on the flip side we had that awful Man U result and an awful first half at Spurs together with disappointing performances at Anfield and Stoke, but our performances away from home have been a mixed bag this season with a couple of real shockers. Hardly a disgrace.

As you say yourself he did a marvellous job but our away form was bad. However there were definite signs of improvement this season.

And his transfer record is arguably more good than bad. Why leave out Bolton? He had an excellent transfer record there.

Newcastle - pretty good, all told and contrary to what the media and Newcastle fans would have you believe. Rozenhal signed for £2 million, sold for £2 million - wasn't the best but oh well. Cacapa - signed on a free. Viduka - signed on a free and scored some useful goals. Habib Beye - fan favourite, big success, sold to Villa. Jose Enriqué - big success, still a regular now, good player. Joey Barton - signed on the cheap, terrible person but has been a good player. Alan Smith was the only player who cost quite a bit who was a failure, but he still plays as a regular.

Rovers - mixed really. Kalinic was a flop, but as I've said a lot of 6 million strikers in this league have been. You think Givet was rubbish, I reckon the majority would say he's been a good signing at £3.5 million. He made us so much more solid at the back after he joined in the Ince season, although he was on loan then. N'Zonzi - very good signing, cost a small amount of money, was a good performer last season, has been injured this season but is still young and will be back. Chimbonda - has been a rubbish player but cost £1.5 million - the fact we see this as a big amount says a lot more about our finances than anything else, 1.5 million rarely buys you quality in this league. Jacobsen - I actually liked him especially on a free and think he wouldve been useful to keep as a backup for Salgado. There's been various other players on a free/pay as you play etc but you're always taking a gamble with those players and they're always a bit of a stab in the dark.

So not a bad transfer record at all. Who would you realistically rather have making the signings? Steve Kean?! Dave Jones? Because I can't think of any managers who we've been linked with or who would want to come that have significantly better transfer market records than Sam.

I think that we have different notion of what is a "good" transfer and a "bad" one. A good transfer in my eyes is one that works, whereby the player performs well in the team/is value for money/makes money for the club once they are sold- to be a good transfer you would need to cover two of these.

Newcastle:

Enrique-- hit, player of the year

Alan Smith- massive flop, signed for £6 million.

Viduka- 7 goals in 16 apps, costing reportedly £65K a week- flop.

Rozenthal- broke even, poor signing, lasted six months- flop.

Barton- "cheap"? cost nearly £6 million! Check out what he has done before this season, costing over £60K a week in the process- flop.

Cacapa- Injured for most of his time at the club, free transfer but cost how much over two years?- Flop.

Beye- success, player of the year and made money when he left- Hit.

2 out of 7?

Blackburn Rovers:

Elrio- played how many games? Flop

Chimbonda- £1.5 million- massive flop

Kalinic- currently a flop

Salgado- hit, on account of value and performance- hit

Nzonzi- ditto- hit

Givet- mixed, some good some bad, (IMO a flop for the money he cost)

Basturk- One game- flop

Goulon- One game- undecided

Linganzi- played a couple- undecided

Jacobsen- flop, rarely played

2 hits? If you were to talk about the youth, then yes Sam did really well with them and moulded the above players into the team well.

I may have missed a few but the point is that bar Nzonzi I cannot see a single other player who we can make any money on, I mean even Ince gave us Robbo!

[47er]

he still had the golden era of talent, a top 6 side in Le Saux, Gallacher, Sutton, Sherwood, Flitcroft, Hendry, Berg, Flowers, Wilcox, Ripley.

Probably £100 million worth of talent.

P.S. I hope I spelt them names all right otherwise I face more OscarRaven insults.

P.P.S. Parkes was awesome

He said when Parkes first managed us. Thats when he threw some youngsters in pre-Kenny eg Wilcox.

[OscarRaven]

he still had the golden era of talent, a top 6 side in Le Saux, Gallacher, Sutton, Sherwood, Flitcroft, Hendry, Berg, Flowers, Wilcox, Ripley.

Probably £100 million worth of talent.

P.S. I hope I spelt them names all right otherwise I face more OscarRaven insults.

P.P.S. Parkes was awesome

OK point taken Chris, you got Gallacher's name right your obviously not the idiot I had you down for

[chris]

He said when Parkes first managed us. Thats when he threw some youngsters in pre-Kenny eg Wilcox.

Thought it was a she lol

[imy9]

Hughes.

Yes Hughes was better for Rovers, although he arguably had easier conditions to work with - City weren't spending big, Spurs were in the lower reaches of the league for half of his reign, Villa as a spending force only emerged towards the end, the likes of Sunderland, Birmingham and Stoke weren't massively outspending us either.

However he did a pretty average job at City for which he got sacked harshly and has been pretty shocking at Fulham. Not exactly known for champagne football either.

Sam got Bolton to within goal difference of a Champions' League place, finished multiple times in the top 8 with them and arguably a better job than Hughes did with us, did an average job at Newcastle for which he got sacked harshly and has been a success with Rovers.

Coyle will probably end up being a better manager than Sam but until he has a good two or three seasons' worth of success at the top level then you can't say that he's proved himself yet.

Hodgson - did well with us one season but got us onto the road to relegation the next. Got Fulham to the UEFA Cup final - but then so did Schteve McLaren with Boro, performed pretty poorly in the league with an even worse away record than ours and has been doing a pretty bad job with the likes of Torres and Gerrard at Liverpool. Didn't exactly cover himself with glory at Inter and has never really performed well as manager in a major league.

We are still making money on Hughes' signings, how much do you think we will make on Sams, Nzonzi? Then I get stuck, not much of a legacy from his signings.

We played better football and had a 43% winning record in comparison to Sams 35% at Rovers and Sams 41% at Bolton (seasons in lower leagues too) Hughes also had a 46% record with City, when he left City had lost fewer games than any other team in the PL- how is this poor?

Hodgson- is one of the most respected coaches in Europe, have a look at his record and compare it with Sam, there really is no comparison.

Coyle is a better manager in my opinion already, however still taking him out thats NINE managers better than Sam not easily top third is it?

[47er]

It was hardly "winning football" uder Sam - it was a case of win a few home games and lose all our away games.

Even that however was admittedly far better than the performances dished up against Stoke and West'aaaam.

And that's the nub surely? Take an enormous risk at a critical part of the season but the results are worse and the football is worse. Only a fantastic transfer window can save Kean---and us.

[pksrover]

Does Kean know how to pass then? he was a rather unsuccessful footballer, retired at 27, I'm pretty sure he never made it to PL standard.

You think Dunn or, Salgado will listen to him on how to pass.

Be like asking Jason Lee to teach our strikers how to score.

Steve Keen is not even on wikipedia, how unknown can you get, my last band is on wikipedia.

Arsene Wenger only turned professional at the age of 29, and only played 12 games professionally... He seems to do alright as a manager of a team playing excellent passing football even though he didn't have a successful career as a footballer.

[chris]

We are still making money on Hughes' signings, how much do you think we will make on Sams, Nzonzi? Then I get stuck, not much of a legacy from his signings.

We played better football and had a 43% winning record in comparison to Sams 35% at Rovers and Sams 41% at Bolton (seasons in lower leagues too) Hughes also had a 46% record with City, when he left City had lost fewer games than any other team in the PL- how is this poor?

Hodgson- is one of the most respected coaches in Europe, have a look at his record and compare it with Sam, there really is no comparison.

Coyle is a better manager in my opinion already, however still taking him out thats NINE managers better than Sam not easily top third is it?

who can be the next Hughes?

I just think he did the impossible with Bentley, Samba, Santa, Bellamy, Warnock. He pulled players out his hat.

Hodgson wasted money sacked, Kidd wasted money sacked, Ince inexperienced Sacked, Souness lost the plot eventually, Harford terrible terrible.

We have not had much luck since Kenny.

maybe your expectations are too high because Hughes did so well in the market.

[philipl]

Parkes got an immediate new Manager bounce every time he did the job even though he was the caretaker. Steve Keen on the other hand doesn't look to be getting any sort of bounce.

[JAL]

Always thought the vision was Yes, Sam bought some duffers whilst he was here, but given the fact that there was no money, this was what we needed for the club to kick on thus the sale to Venky's who were buying into Rovers under the impression that money would made available for bigSam in order to buy that better player that he and we had all craved for.

Was I misled here into believing this from the current board?

[imy9]

You have to better than two decent signings out of seven surely? Tony thinks Sam us better than Hughes, IMO there are in different leagues, Hughes eye for a player is on a par with Wenger, we need him on retainer!

[chris]

Arsene Wenger only turned professional at the age of 29, and only played 12 games professionally... He seems to do alright as a manager of a team playing excellent passing football even though he didn't have a successful career as a footballer.

I think Hodgson didn't achieve much as a player.

We will see.

The next Wenger then.

[philipl]

Givet and Jacobsen have done the jobs asked of them and should not be categorised as flops.

[chris]

Givet and Jacobsen have done the jobs asked of them and should not be categorised as flops.

and Diouf, I thought he added a bit of character that help keep us up 2008/2009

[tony gale's mic]

I think that we have different notion of what is a "good" transfer and a "bad" one. A good transfer in my eyes is one that works, whereby the player performs well in the team/is value for money/makes money for the club once they are sold- to be a good transfer you would need to cover two of these.

Newcastle:

Enrique-- hit, player of the year

Alan Smith- massive flop, signed for £6 million.

Viduka- 7 goals in 16 apps, costing reportedly £65K a week- flop.

Rozenthal- broke even, poor signing, lasted six months- flop.

Barton- "cheap"? cost nearly £6 million! Check out what he has done before this season, costing over £60K a week in the process- flop.

Cacapa- Injured for most of his time at the club, free transfer but cost how much over two years?- Flop.

Beye- success, player of the year and made money when he left- Hit.

2 out of 7?

Blackburn Rovers:

Elrio- played how many games? Flop

Chimbonda- £1.5 million- massive flop

Kalinic- currently a flop

Salgado- hit, on account of value and performance- hit

Nzonzi- ditto- hit

Givet- mixed, some good some bad, (IMO a flop for the money he cost)

Basturk- One game- flop

Goulon- One game- undecided

Linganzi- played a couple- undecided

Jacobsen- flop, rarely played

2 hits? If you were to talk about the youth, then yes Sam did really well with them and moulded the above players into the team well.

I may have missed a few but the point is that bar Nzonzi I cannot see a single other player who we can make any money on, I mean even Ince gave us Robbo!

Of course you have to factor in whether a player is sold for as much. If a player like Rosenthal is sold for as much as they were bought, or if they were a free transfer on average wages like Cacapa, that demands a totally different appraisal than if someone is signed for 10 million, flops and is sold for 2 million. Even if their performances might have been equally poor in both respects.

Viduka - 7 goals in 16 appearances is a pretty good ratio. Yes his wages were big but he was signed on a free which does balance it out.

TBF I didn't realise how much Barton cost and how little he played but that was down to a combination of metatarsal and poor discipline. This season he has started to show that he's becoming a regular member of the side and a valuable one at that, even if he lapsed recently with MGP. Currently probably a flop but I think this will change with time.

Cacapa was the captain of the great Lyon side which won Ligue 1 multiple times in succession and regularly did well in the Champions' League. He only left on his own choice and so was a good signing - yes injury ravaged his time at Newcastle but this wasn't really something Sam could control.

And with Rovers - the majority of those players you name were signed for under a million. What proportion of players signed under a million in this league become successful Premier League regulars for mid table sides? I don't know myself, but I'm sure it'll be under 50%. I'm also pretty sure it'll be under 25%. Of course you'll have more flops than successes. Basturk was signed on pay as you play.

But Givet - integral in keeping us up, 3.5 million by Premier League standards is a pretty average amount of money to spend on a defender, has had arguably had a lot more good games than bad games - hit.

Diouf - everyone hates him, rubbish for most of 09/10 but played a significant role in keeping us up and started this season well, only cost £1.5 million - just about a hit.

And again, it disregards his excellent record at Bolton.

But I'll ask this again - who realistically would you rather trust with our transfer budget than Sam?

[chris]

Hodgson- is one of the most respected coaches in Europe, have a look at his record and compare it with Sam, there really is no comparison.

How much money did we make on Davies 7.5m, Blake 4.5m, Dahlin 3m, Valery 1m, Dailly 6.4m, Peacock (wages), Perez 3m.

All total and utter flops that cost us over £20 million and Chanpionship football.

Can;t believe he bought Dailly for 6.4 million. Thats about 15 million in todays market.

[John]

You have to better than two decent signings out of seven surely? Tony thinks Sam us better than Hughes, IMO there are in different leagues, Hughes eye for a player is on a par with Wenger, we need him on retainer!

Hughes record in relation to player recruitment was amazing, first class - however you also need to look at changes in the general/overall market.

As time moved on, Hughes said it simply was not possible, or sustainable, to keep pulling rabbits out of the hat in the transfer market (his words). The point he was making was that in order to sign good quality players you needed money and a fair bit of it.

In addition, with increasing wages, even getting a decent "free transfer" was much harder for clubs with the resources we had.

You quote Sam's signings but he really has not spent that much at all in modern day Premier League terms.

[philipl]

Dangerous thing to start talking about Managerial ranking. There probably hasn't been a lower ranking permanent Manager than Steve Kean since the Premier League started.

[broadsword]

And Mourinho was a great footballer ?

Not saying he is the next special one - but don't see any reason yet why he wouldn't make a good manager.

That's the crazy thing, we're halfway through the season, no need to panic or make hasty decisions, everything's going relatively OK.

We binned all that to hire a complete unknown.

[patrickvalery]

Let me say straight away that my personal opinion of the Sam situation is it was poorly conducted and entirely the wrong decision. However, i do feel it was only the wrong decision in terms of its timing. The sensible approach would have been to have kept him on until the end of the season and let him do what he does best - Keep us on the Premier League gravy train.

However, i am not convinced in the long term he would ever have done much more than that. At the start of his tenure i was right behind him. Even up until the back end of last season i felt the same. He should be given the opportunity to construct his own side under any new regime. But under his stewardship i was falling out of love with football as slowly as the Walker Trust were killing our football club. I honestly believe that even given an unlimited sum of money Sam would have invested in athletic playing staff who were capable of applying his percentage football to a higher degree. Even if he tried to implement a more attractive passing game, he would resort to his tried and tested ways in times of difficulty.

This is because its human nature. We all have core beliefs which we turn to when the chips are down. Not just in football, but in all walks of life. Arsenal play in a style which Arsene Wenger believes in. A system and style which he trusts as being the proper way to play football. One which is best for his club and best for the game as a whole. Even during some difficult times he does not stray from this ethos. Mourinho does the same with his pragmatic, direct, hard to beat style. I do not believe Sam would have been able to lose, tinker with or adapt his approach. All well and good if results are what pleases you. But if its entertainment you want then it struggles to live up to the billing.

Sam Allardyce was a fantastic appointment at the right time for our club. Under the Walker Trust he was our ideal manager. But the new lot, however badly they have behaved, deserve to mould Rovers into whatever they like. They paid £46m for that privilege. If they feel Kean is the right man then so be it. I'm am sick of losing sleep over this. If he has got the job until the end of the season then out fate is in his hands. Not a whole lot anyone can do about it. Personally i never like internal appointments. An experienced outside manager would have been my preferred option. And what concerns me most is Kean hasn't showed much to make me think he can dish up a considerably better brand of football. But he seems to have friends in high places. He has my support until such a time comes that he proves to me he doesn't deserve it. His luck so far has been non-existant. Lets see what January brings and we might just all have a more positive feeling.

One post of recent times which i think should be remembered was one from Alan Nixon about the Rao brothers liking to be seen to mix with celebs like Akon and Lennox Lewis. I have a feeling January might yeild something pretty spectacular.

[tony gale's mic]

We are still making money on Hughes' signings, how much do you think we will make on Sams, Nzonzi? Then I get stuck, not much of a legacy from his signings.

We played better football and had a 43% winning record in comparison to Sams 35% at Rovers and Sams 41% at Bolton (seasons in lower leagues too) Hughes also had a 46% record with City, when he left City had lost fewer games than any other team in the PL- how is this poor?

Hodgson- is one of the most respected coaches in Europe, have a look at his record and compare it with Sam, there really is no comparison.

Coyle is a better manager in my opinion already, however still taking him out thats NINE managers better than Sam not easily top third is it?

He also drew a lot of matches at City the season he got sacked which granted meant he lost less but also meant he won less too. They'd spent an absolute ton of money including £18 million on a striker who'd topped 5 league goals just one season in his career. I for one was delighted when he did that - not only did he sign him for us but he was also gracious to sign him for that much. Thanks Mark!

Sam has blooded through lots of young players through the ranks. We have needed experienced heads alongside these young heads which is why the likes of Salgado have been great - Hughes brought through no young players so he had to find it through transfers. Which he was extremely good at.

I'm a massive fan of what Hughes achieved with us, I think it was great and I think overall Hughes did a better job with us than Sam did. But there isn't the huge gulf people think there is.

Fact is Hughes had a significantly easier league to manage in that Allardyce did. Under Hughes Spurs' league finishes were 14th, 9th, 5th, 5th and 11th, meaning that for three of his seasons they were just a bog standard mid table side rather than the unreachable huge budget side they are now. Villa's big spending only really started in summer '07 since Randy Lerner took charge during the previous season in which they finished 11th. From summer '07 until last season they had Martin O'Neill in charge and were spending big money which meant they got out of our reach. Now the purse strings have been tightened. City were nowhere either, obviously. We didn't have mid table sides like Sunderland, Birmingham and Stoke spending far more than us either.

Under Hughes the only four sides that genuinely seemed out of reach were the big four. For Rovers, and the rest of the league it was all up for grabs, including the UEFA Cup slots. Under Allardyce it was the big four, Spurs, City, Villa up until last season, Everton (they spent about 20 million on two midfielders alone after Hughes left) who were financially in a different league to us.

And Hughes never got us as close to a Champions' League spot. Hughes never got us into a cup final like Allardyce did with Bolton (well..not as a manager). He got them promoted, and though the first couple of seasons were tough he finished 16th, 17th, 8th, 6th, 8th and 7th. He took the side all the way from mid table in the old Division One to that.

Hughes inherited a side which finished 6th under Souness and had won a domestic cup but who had lost their way.

He has a long, long way to go until his achievements can match Sam's.

Also some of the most respected coaches in Europe are Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Guardiola, Van Gaal etc etc. Hodgson is not one of them. He had a poor spell at Inter, did poorly with us, and had one good league season with Fulham where they finished 7th. He was also an unpopular choice as Liverpool manager and has not done well for them. Allardyce has had far more successful league seasons at the top level than Hodgson has.

But the new lot, however badly they have behaved, deserve to mould Rovers into whatever they like. They paid £46m for that privilege. If they feel Kean is the right man than so be it.

No. No they don't. They have the capital to spend £46 million, which they hope to make a profit on along with increased revenue streams through advertising of their chicken brand.

Fans put in millions upon millions each season into the club, in season tickets, matchday tickets, merchandise and indirectly through TV subscriptions. They don't get any of this back and will be here well before and after Venky's time at this club.

They don't know anything about football and yet they are making footballing decisions with our club.