[Archived] Steve Kean

[broadsword]

One post of recent times which i think should be remembered was one from Alan Nixon about the Rao brothers liking to be seen to mix with celebs like Akon and Lennox Lewis. I have a feeling January might yeild something pretty spectacular.

The Rao brothers will be seen having a night out in Brick Lane with Bob Carolgees and Terry Wogan?

[patrickvalery]

No. No they don't. They have the capital to spend £46 million, which they hope to make a profit on along with increased revenue streams through advertising of their chicken brand.

TGM, i'm afraid they do. Every right. I agree that fans pay their share. They invest financially and emotionally. As i said, i'm sick of losing sleep over this. But Venky's won't change their plans because i've had a few sleepless nights.

Until you or i can stump up £46m to buy the club and run it as we see fit then there is nothing we can do about it. The only constructive thing fans can do at this time is back the side 110%. Its counter productive to do anything else.

[tony gale's mic]

TGM, i'm afraid they do. Every right. I agree that fans pay their share. They invest financially and emotionally. As i said, i'm sick of losing sleep over this. But the Venky's won't change their plans because i've had a few sleepless nights.

Until you or i can stump up £46m to buy the club and run it as we see fit then there is nothing we can do about it. The only constructive thing fans can do at this time is back the side 110%. Its counter productive to do anything else.

Of course legally they have the right.

Legally I have the right to sleep with my best friend's girlfriend. That doesn't mean that my best friend wouldn't give me a bloody nose and launch his form of protest against me - he'd be perfectly entitled to do so. Maybe then I'd get the message that it's not okay to sleep with his girlfriend.

Randy Lerner at Villa cared so much for the heritage of the club he had taken over that he spent £4 million redeveloping the Holte Pub which is an integral part of their heritage. We have owners intent on ripping apart our heritage. We're not asking for them to go to the same lengths as Lerner but the contrast is a sad one.

[patrickvalery]

Of course legally they have the right.

Legally I have the right to sleep with my best friend's girlfriend. That doesn't mean that my best friend wouldn't give me a bloody nose and launch his form of protest against me - he'd be perfectly entitled to do so. Maybe then I'd get the message that it's not okay to sleep with his girlfriend.

Randy Lerner at Villa cared so much for the heritage of the club he had taken over that he spent £4 million redeveloping the Holte Pub which is an integral part of their heritage. We have owners intent on ripping apart our heritage. We're not asking for them to go to the same lengths as Lerner but the contrast is a sad one.

You are suggesting we do not agree on the subject. I thought i had stressed the point in both my posts above, that i do not agree with what they have done. But what can be done? I don't think fans protesting about Sam Allardyce being sacked etc.. will be productive in any way, shape or form. With all the turmoil which has gone on over the last few weeks, demonstrations or protests will not help settle things down. I realise no fan has asked for any of this. But as people with the clubs best interest at heart we need to take the moral high ground and try to get some stability back. The longer the disruption goes on the harder it is for the lads to go and get a result. So much so that i fancy our chances away from home against the Baggies more than i did home to Stoke.

As for heritage. Well, i haven't seen much from the new owners to suggest our heritage is at stake. If the statue of Jack was making way for a 25ft yellow and red chicken in a Rovers shirt i might agree. They cannot take our heritage away. History is something they cannot touch.

[chris]

Venky have us by the nuts

Still we can;t rule out this could work long term, just the rookie manager has be dead worried.

£20 million in the window will shut me up.

[tony gale's mic]

Venky have us by the nuts

Still we can;t rule out this could work long term, just the rookie manager has be dead worried.

£20 million in the window will shut me up.

£20 million on good players will shut me up as long as they blend in well with the team and Steve Kean gets to grips with management.

£20 million on rubbish and/or Steve Kean not being able to get them playing well, and that will be awful.

[Brfcrule1]

To be honest after last night's dire performance I feel we need a manager with a bit of experience someone like Martin O Neill I must admit I am scared to death of SK spending money in Jan what if his players don't work out. I have said it all along yes I was not happy with Sam's playing style and feel he needed to go but not without having a decent replacement come in and if no decent replacement could not be found we should have stuck with Sam till the end of the season now just hoping we don't go down with SK but have to say it is a real possibility.

[FourLaneBlue]

I think we are missing the point on this thread. It shouldn't be about whether Sam should have been sacked or not...we have other threads spefically for that...but about whether the appointment of Steve Kean as his replacement is a good choice or not.

I think the overwhelming response seems to be no.

It isn't anything personal. Just that Kean is utterly inexperienced and we are not the club, and this is not the time, to be needlessly gambling on him.

From the response of the players in the previous two home games, they do not look like they are particularly impressed either...

[RovertheHill]

He also drew a lot of matches at City the season he got sacked which granted meant he lost less but also meant he won less too. They'd spent an absolute ton of money including £18 million on a striker who'd topped 5 league goals just one season in his career. I for one was delighted when he did that - not only did he sign him for us but he was also gracious to sign him for that much. Thanks Mark!

Sam has blooded through lots of young players through the ranks. We have needed experienced heads alongside these young heads which is why the likes of Salgado have been great - Hughes brought through no young players so he had to find it through transfers. Which he was extremely good at.

I'm a massive fan of what Hughes achieved with us, I think it was great and I think overall Hughes did a better job with us than Sam did. But there isn't the huge gulf people think there is.

Fact is Hughes had a significantly easier league to manage in that Allardyce did. Under Hughes Spurs' league finishes were 14th, 9th, 5th, 5th and 11th, meaning that for three of his seasons they were just a bog standard mid table side rather than the unreachable huge budget side they are now. Villa's big spending only really started in summer '07 since Randy Lerner took charge during the previous season in which they finished 11th. From summer '07 until last season they had Martin O'Neill in charge and were spending big money which meant they got out of our reach. Now the purse strings have been tightened. City were nowhere either, obviously. We didn't have mid table sides like Sunderland, Birmingham and Stoke spending far more than us either.

Under Hughes the only four sides that genuinely seemed out of reach were the big four. For Rovers, and the rest of the league it was all up for grabs, including the UEFA Cup slots. Under Allardyce it was the big four, Spurs, City, Villa up until last season, Everton (they spent about 20 million on two midfielders alone after Hughes left) who were financially in a different league to us.

And Hughes never got us as close to a Champions' League spot. Hughes never got us into a cup final like Allardyce did with Bolton (well..not as a manager). He got them promoted, and though the first couple of seasons were tough he finished 16th, 17th, 8th, 6th, 8th and 7th. He took the side all the way from mid table in the old Division One to that.

Hughes inherited a side which finished 6th under Souness and had won a domestic cup but who had lost their way.

He has a long, long way to go until his achievements can match Sam's.

Also some of the most respected coaches in Europe are Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Guardiola, Van Gaal etc etc. Hodgson is not one of them. He had a poor spell at Inter, did poorly with us, and had one good league season with Fulham where they finished 7th. He was also an unpopular choice as Liverpool manager and has not done well for them. Allardyce has had far more successful league seasons at the top level than Hodgson has.

No. No they don't. They have the capital to spend £46 million, which they hope to make a profit on along with increased revenue streams through advertising of their chicken brand.

Fans put in millions upon millions each season into the club, in season tickets, matchday tickets, merchandise and indirectly through TV subscriptions. They don't get any of this back and will be here well before and after Venky's time at this club.

They don't know anything about football and yet they are making footballing decisions with our club.

Blimey. Are you in fact Sam Allardyce?

You could say that Allardyce inherited a team that had finished 7th under Hughes but had lost its way (under Ince) but that would perhaps be churlish. You could say that the league itself was a darn sight easier when Allardyce achieved so much at Bolton, but that too would be churlish.

Fact is, a good number of Rovers fans didn't actually rate Allardyce as a forward thinking manager but were highly grateful for him keeping us in the league - perhaps as a defensive type of manager. I'd also be willing to bet that a large number wouldn't have been disappointed if he'd been replaced in summer because the fact is when he's had money he hasn't exactly set the world on fire. You yourself have stated in a number of posts that his one big signing here (Kalinic) is a luxury we can't afford - a non-scoring striker.

There's no doubt that Venky's have made a PR hash of everything they've done so far, and they are on a steep learning curve, but there is absolutely no evidence that their goal is to wreck the heritage of Rovers. And even if they were, as you keep pointing out, it's our club? Symptomatic of the hyperbole around this place at the moment

[Hughesy]

A positive article for you all....No doubt had it been negative it would have been posted so here goes.

Samba Happier....Robbo wants to stay long term...players excited

[RoversSG]

Apparently in his after match press conference he was talking about how he was going to show the players a video of the Stoke game and point out all the positives to their build up play, now is that a worry.

Someone tell me this isnt really happening and that its all a bad dream.

What positives? Have i been watching a different game or was the team that created zilch for the entire game actually Stoke in blue and white?

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Dangerous thing to start talking about Managerial ranking. There probably hasn't been a lower ranking permanent Manager than Steve Kean since the Premier League started.

If he still ranks lower than Perrin, Tigana, Ramos, Ince, Coleman and Eddie Gray (who did for Leeds what Kean is doing for Rovers) at the end of the season then fair enough, but playing careers and managerial experience outside the Premier League count for nothing, and managers with the relevant experience don't tend to jump at the chance of managing a sub-par squad at a club with so much uncertainty hanging around.

[Seggie]

If he still ranks lower than Perrin, Tigana, Ramos, Ince, Coleman and Eddie Gray (who did for Leeds what Kean is doing for Rovers) at the end of the season then fair enough, but playing careers and managerial experience outside the Premier League count for nothing, and managers with the relevant experience don't tend to jump at the chance of managing a sub-par squad at a club with so much uncertainty hanging around.

Did Ramos not win the UEFA Cup twice before going to Spurs?

[Fife Rover]

The people I associate with had nothing but praise for Allardyce DURING and after his tenure.

Why? Because we realised what a superb job he had done with such a poor squad. You cannot put a price on having a manager that can motivate and cajole the very best out of players.

A lot of Rovers fans have proved yet again that they have little knowledge about football.

Spot on.

[tony gale's mic]

If he still ranks lower than Perrin, Tigana, Ramos, Ince, Coleman and Eddie Gray (who did for Leeds what Kean is doing for Rovers) at the end of the season then fair enough, but playing careers and managerial experience outside the Premier League count for nothing, and managers with the relevant experience don't tend to jump at the chance of managing a sub-par squad at a club with so much uncertainty hanging around.

Perrin managed three clubs including Marseilles. Tigana managed Lyon and Monaco. Ince at least had SOME managerial experience and did pretty well in it. Eddie Gray at least had some managerial experience with lower league clubs and got Leeds relegated - not a great example. Coleman is the only example really.

And of course managerial experience outside the Premier League counts for something! Why do you think Chelsea appointed Mourinho and Ancelotti, Arsenal appointed Wenger, Everton appointed Moyes? Even Ince's experience in League Two was worth more, he'd at least had experience of what being a football manager entailed, had the chance to try out tactics that worked for him. We should never have appointed him since that experience was in such a low league, but it still counts for more than Steve Kean's experience.

[Jimmy612]

Easily top ten? One of the most outrageous statements that I have read on this MB.

1. Ferguson

2. Mancini

3. Wenger

4. Carlo

5. Redknapp

6. Coyle

7. Hodgson

8. Moyes

9. Houllier

10. Hughes

All of the above are MILES ahead of Sam, they have either won titles (7 out of 10), been more consistent (Moyes, Hughes) or play a style of football which is better (Coyle).

Which ONE of the above is Sam better than?

I think that we have different notion of what is a "good" transfer and a "bad" one. A good transfer in my eyes is one that works, whereby the player performs well in the team/is value for money/makes money for the club once they are sold- to be a good transfer you would need to cover two of these.

Newcastle:

Enrique-- hit, player of the year

Alan Smith- massive flop, signed for £6 million.

Viduka- 7 goals in 16 apps, costing reportedly £65K a week- flop.

Rozenthal- broke even, poor signing, lasted six months- flop.

Barton- "cheap"? cost nearly £6 million! Check out what he has done before this season, costing over £60K a week in the process- flop.

Cacapa- Injured for most of his time at the club, free transfer but cost how much over two years?- Flop.

Beye- success, player of the year and made money when he left- Hit.

2 out of 7?

Blackburn Rovers:

Elrio- played how many games? Flop

Chimbonda- £1.5 million- massive flop

Kalinic- currently a flop

Salgado- hit, on account of value and performance- hit

Nzonzi- ditto- hit

Givet- mixed, some good some bad, (IMO a flop for the money he cost)

Basturk- One game- flop

Goulon- One game- undecided

Linganzi- played a couple- undecided

Jacobsen- flop, rarely played

2 hits? If you were to talk about the youth, then yes Sam did really well with them and moulded the above players into the team well.

I may have missed a few but the point is that bar Nzonzi I cannot see a single other player who we can make any money on, I mean even Ince gave us Robbo!

Surely it's not only stupid but unfair of you to compare Allardyce to managers of clubs with funds far exceeding our own. It is irrelevent to the argument and is not the yardstick which should be applied in your comparison. Imagine the reverse imy. Where would Sam Allardyce figure in your list if all those managers had to make do with no money to spend every year? In my opinion he'd be second only to Mark Hughes with Moyes and Coyle vying for third and fourth place. Every other appointment would be a step into the unknown and a massive gamble.

[philipl]

A positive article for you all....No doubt had it been negative it would have been posted so here goes.

Samba Happier....Robbo wants to stay long term...players excited

There is a similar bit from Kean in the Daily Telegraph arrested chickens story.

Any quotes from the players? The behind the scenes stuff leaking out is not so good I am afraid.

[tony gale's mic]

Steve Kean said that if Samba no longer wanted to leave the club he'd get the captaincy back.

So until Samba gets the captaincy back then all this talk of him "sounding positive" means nothing.

[Uddersfelt Blue]

Any quotes from the players? The behind the scenes stuff leaking out is not so good I am afraid.

Would you care to elaborate Philip?

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

What positives? Have i been watching a different game or was the team that created zilch for the entire game actually Stoke in blue and white?

I really don't get some fans. We spend almost two seasons moaning about Sam his negative tactics - the fact he always looked to stop the opposition rather than looking to the positives etc etc. Here we have a manager trying to build up morale - building on the positives (and I don't for one minute believe he will only be looking at the few things we did right) - and fans moan.

One thing for me - if we are to play a more passing game we need to move a bit more - so to concentrate on the positive of when players did move to create space etc can only help as it helps deomstrate where we are going wrong.

Why can't we get behind this man until he shows whether he can or can't do the job ? Two games with an injury ravaged squad isn't the time to judge him (other than the obvious fact that he seems to be trying to mix up the play far more than Sam ever did).

[tony gale's mic]

I really don't get some fans. We spend almost two seasons moaning about Sam his negative tactics - the fact he always looked to stop the opposition rather than looking to the positives etc etc. Here we have a manager trying to build up morale - building on the positives (and I don't for one minute believe he will only be looking at the few things we did right) - and fans moan.

One thing for me - if we are to play a more passing game we need to move a bit more - so to concentrate on the positive of when players did move to create space etc can only help as it helps deomstrate where we are going wrong.

Why can't we get behind this man until he shows whether he can or can't do the job ? Two games with an injury ravaged squad isn't the time to judge him (other than the obvious fact that he seems to be trying to mix up the play far more than Sam ever did).

Actually, not everyone moaned about Sam's tactics. There were a lot of us who didn't find it particularly nice to watch, but realised with a pretty average squad and a shoestring budget it meant we got the best results out of the team.

We were awful against the bottom club West Ham with largely exactly the same amount of injuries as Sam had, it was only later on in the game where the injuries set in. And either way these were still two home games against "lower" opposition, the sort we need to be winning or at least looking vaguely threatening.

We're getting behind the team, but it makes perfect sense that people will be highly sceptical that a man with no experience as manager (and not even that great a pedigree as a coach) will manage to walk into what is a very difficult situation and succeed. The fact people are trying to make positive comparisons with him against Sam is laughable.

[imy9]

Viduka - 7 goals in 16 appearances is a pretty good ratio. Yes his wages were big but he was signed on a free which does balance it out.

PLAYED 16 GAMES IN TWO YEARS £7 MILLION IN FEES OVER TWO YEARS FOR 7 GOALS, IS THAT DECENT VALUE?

Cacapa was the captain of the great Lyon side which won Ligue 1 multiple times in succession and regularly did well in the Champions' League. He only left on his own choice and so was a good signing - yes injury ravaged his time at Newcastle but this wasn't really something Sam could control.

STILL BOUGHT HIM AND COST THE CLUB AS MUCH AS VIDUKA IN WAGES- VALUE FOR MONEY? PLAYED WELL? NO TO BOTH.

And with Rovers - the majority of those players you name were signed for under a million. What proportion of players signed under a million in this league become successful Premier League regulars for mid table sides? I don't know myself, but I'm sure it'll be under 50%. I'm also pretty sure it'll be under 25%. Of course you'll have more flops than successes. Basturk was signed on pay as you play.

YOUR GUESSING AGAIN, LOOK AT OUR NEAREST RIVALS AND COMPARE, LARSSON £1 MILLION,FERGUSON £1 MILLION, MACARTHUR £1 MILLION, I COULD GO ON, THEY ARE THERE.

But Givet - integral in keeping us up, 3.5 million by Premier League standards is a pretty average amount of money to spend on a defender, has had arguably had a lot more good games than bad games - hit.

WHY SPEND THAT MONEY ON A CENTRE HALF WHEN WE HAD NELSEN AND SAMBA AND NO LEFT BACK? BAD CHOICES BY SAM WITH A HUGE CHUNK OF HIS SMALL BUDGET.

Diouf - everyone hates him, rubbish for most of 09/10 but played a significant role in keeping us up and started this season well, only cost £1.5 million - just about a hit. PLUS £40k A WEEK THAT IS £4 MILLION IN WAGES TOO, WE ARE DANGEROUSLY HIGH WITH WAGES.

And again, it disregards his excellent record at Bolton.

THE ONLY PLAYER COSTING MONEY THAT WORKS WAS ANELKA- I COULD HAVE TOLD YOU HE WOULD BE A HIT!

He also drew a lot of matches at City the season he got sacked which granted meant he lost less but also meant he won less too. They'd spent an absolute ton of money including £18 million on a striker who'd topped 5 league goals just one season in his career. I for one was delighted when he did that - not only did he sign him for us but he was also gracious to sign him for that much. Thanks Mark!

HUGHES BOUGHT:

KOMPANY- DESCRIBED BY ANDY GRAY AS THE PLAYER OF THE SEASON SO FAR.

WRIGHT PHILLIPS

ZABALETA

JO

BEN HAIM

OUT OF THOSE 5, 4 ARE STILL PART OF THE FIRST TEAM AT CITY- YOU CAN DISCOUNT THE SIGNINGS AFTER THE ABU DHABI GROUP TOOK OVER AS THEY TOOK OVER SIGNING RESPONSIBILITIES, HUGHES MERELY COACHED AT THAT POINT.

Sam has blooded through lots of young players through the ranks. We have needed experienced heads alongside these young heads which is why the likes of Salgado have been great - Hughes brought through no young players so he had to find it through transfers. Which he was extremely good at.

I'm a massive fan of what Hughes achieved with us, I think it was great and I think overall Hughes did a better job with us than Sam did. But there isn't the huge gulf people think there is.

Hughes inherited a side which finished 6th under Souness and had won a domestic cup but who had lost their way.

I SAID BEFORE THAT YOU ARE A MASTER OF REVISING HISTORY, DID YOU WATCH BLACKBURN BEFORE SAM? WE HAD FINISHED 15TH IN THE PREVIOUS SEASON AND WERE IN THE BOTTOM 5 WHEN SOUNESS LEFT, LOST THEIR WAY? WE HAD SOLD DUFF, DUNN AND JANSEN WAS GONE TOO, IT WAS THE WORST SQUAD THAT I CAN RECALL IN THE LAST 10 YEARS. HUGHES' LEAGUE FINISHES? 15TH, 6TH, 10TH, 7TH, PLAYING GOOD FOOTBALL AND BUILDING A SQUAD , SAM HAS NOT BUILT A SQUAD, LOOK AT THE PLAYERS!

He has a long, long way to go until his achievements can match Sam's.

Also some of the most respected coaches in Europe are Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Guardiola, Van Gaal etc etc. Hodgson is not one of them. He had a poor spell at Inter, did poorly with us, and had one good league season with Fulham where they finished 7th. He was also an unpopular choice as Liverpool manager and has not done well for them. Allardyce has had far more successful league seasons at the top level than Hodgson has.

YOUVE JUST NAMED SOME OF THE GREATEST MANAGERS OF ALL TIME. EUROPE IS A BIG PLACE, ROY IS RESPECTED IN ITALY, SWIZZERLAND, SWEDEN, DENMARK, ENGLAND, WHERE IS SAM RESPECTED?

AGAIN YOU HAVE REVISED HISTORY, INTER WERE IN NEED OF AN OVERHAUL, THEY WERE IN THE BOTTOM HALF OF THE TABLE WHEN ROY TOOK OVER, SPENDING LITTLE MONEY HE TOOK THEM TO 7TH, THEN A UEFA CUP FINAL( ASK MORATTI AND INTER FANS THEY HUGELY RESPECT HIM) TOOK SWIZZERLAND TO EUROS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OVER 30 YEARS, I COULD GO ON, HE IS THE CURRENT LMA MANAGER OF THE MANAGER BY THE BIGGEST EVER MARGIN SINCE IT BEGAN.

Surely it's not only stupid but unfair of you to compare Allardyce to managers of clubs with funds far exceeding our own. It is irrelevent to the argument and is not the yardstick which should be applied in your comparison. Imagine the reverse imy. Where would Sam Allardyce figure in your list if all those managers had to make do with no money to spend every year? In my opinion he'd be second only to Mark Hughes with Moyes and Coyle vying for third and fourth place. Every other appointment would be a step into the unknown and a massive gamble.

Brian Laws is also up there in the best managers in England then? Pound for pound he was said to be the best... unless of course you judge managers on money spent, players bought in, success achieved, style of play, trophies won, league position achieved, different leagues where success has been achieved?

[Jimmy612]

Imy I'm not going to continue with this debate at the moment. Sufficient to say that you will rue the day that Venkeys sacked Allardyce sooner than you thought.

[philipl]

Gosh we are desperately struggling for arguments to support Kean if we are trying to say that in terms of salvaging Premier League survival and building with limited resources, the Hughes and Allardyce managerial periods were anything other than incredible successes. League tables and financial statements usually don't lie and read in conjunction with each other point to Hughes and Allardyce both achieving miracles at Ewood.

It seems the indefensible is being supported by the indefensible twaddle.

I desperately want Kean to succeed and Rovers to finish top half of the Premier League this season- in other words to end up where we would have done anyway under Allardyce. It is not looking good because if we consider on field balance of play in the last three games, a side which gave Bolton one heck of a fright and came away unlucky to lose from the Rebok has now been given a bit of a footballing lesson at home by West Ham and an absolute thumping at home by Stoke.

As for whispers coming out, I could have older stuff than Steve Kean's post match soothing balm following the Stoke defeat but EHD, Samba and Robbo are still being talked about.

[imy9]

Imy I'm not going to continue with this debate at the moment. Sufficient to say that you will rue the day that Venkeys sacked Allardyce sooner than you thought.

Would you like me to say it again? Sam did an amazing job with limited funds, Venkeys should NOT have sacked him, however he is not in the top 10 of managers in the league and I would not hire him if I had decent money to spend, I would if I was bottom of the league.