[Archived] The Relegation Battle Aftermath

[thenodrog]

Was Jack Walker justifed in sacking Don Mackay at the time?

I can;t remember I'm actually asking was too young but I thin I recall that it was not really fair on Don similar to Sam.

difference is Jack got in a great manager.

Chris if thats the case you obviously don't rem the club wallowing around in the lower leagues with not enough brass to pay poor and average players? Believe me and this may take some stomaching but in the natural order of things with football clubs status dictated largely by financial resource that is where we really belong. And this is the reason that the likes of Jim, Den and myself have been so aghast and distraught at what has been going on since Venkeys took over. We know how precarious Prem status is for a club like ours and we know how difficult life will be should we be relegated. To risk the clubs future existence as they have done is just complete utter bloody madness bordering on criminal. Forget most of the stupid arguments that you read on here cos most of them are being made by people like you who through age simply do not know what relegation will entail.

[Gav]

but at least he would've kept us up this season.

So Allardyce would have done the same job as Keans done then? if you think we'll be staying up that is.

[tony gale's mic]

So Allardyce would have done the same job as Keans done then? if you think we'll be staying up that is.

Sam would have had us top 10. That view is borne out by both our record in the first 17 games extrapolated over the season, plus his record over practically a decade of Premier League football.

[tony gale's mic]

From a personal point of view, I was fed up of his style of football. Some games at Ewood were just truly shocking to watch and I was sick and tired of it. No creativity, no plan B and plain boring. Only reason I kept watching was because I love the club. Away from Ewood, I spent thousands on going to watch them up and down the country and the lack of interest he showed was also irritating. When he put out a reserve side that rolled over against Liverpool. I paid £38 to watch that game exc. travel.

His style of play didn't suit me nor many other fans, that's why I believe he deserved to go. The timing was stupid, I agree, but the decision will be justified if we retain our PL status.

Did you enjoy watching his style of football?

The problem is that you know nothing about football, or if I'm being kind, you seem incapable of incorporating what's happened in, say, the last 10 seasons of Premier League football into your half baked opinions.

No one, but no one, has managed to sustain a team on a budget in the top half of the league for multiple seasons in the last ten years and managed to play attractive football at the same time.

We played some great stuff under Sparky in the season when we had Bellamy and Tugay. But the quality of football faded with Tugay's legs. There were numerous people complaining on here about the style of football in Sparky's last season when we finished 7th. I wasn't one of them. We had the worst disciplinary record in the league and were WIDELY criticised for our playing style. Probably just as much if not more than under Sam, if for different reasons.

Bolton under Sam were another team who had multiple top 10 finishes. Their playing style got better as Sam was able to add the likes of Okocha and Djorkaeff into the team as he went on. If you looked at his transfer targets this season, he was looking to do the same again.

Stoke under Pulis have had plenty to spend, far more than Sam but still get criticised for their playing style. It has improved but then so it should when you can spend as much on players as Pulis can.

Owen Coyle may well end up being the exception. But that's one man in ten years - and he still needs to repeat the success next season to really fulfil this. I'd back him to do it but I think he's an excellent manager.

Moyes has had a huge amount to spend compared to anyone at Rovers.

To play vaguely "attractive" football you need players with pace and/or creativity. Those players cost the absolute most of any player, bar out and out goalscorers possibly. Sam had a negative net transfer budget to spend, if you hadn't noticed. Where we finished in the league last season (10th) was one place off being as high as we could possibly expect to finish, given Villa, Everton, Spurs, City etc all were in a different spending league.

We had an excellent record at Ewood. Most fans like watching nice football, but fans who know a bit about the game know it's a very tough ask to achieve consistently good results and play nice football unless you have some money to spend. Clearly, you aren't aware of this simple, basic truth.

The decision won't be justified if we retain our PL status. We sacked a man who had us as close pointswise to relegation as he did to the Champions' League last season, and who wouldve arguably have had us finish top 10 again this season, and who had a track record of doing very well with a club like ours in the past. Even if we stay up, we'll have a manager who seems in no way capable of doing that, and who, unless he shows a sharp improvement next season, WILL get us relegated or very close next season.

[blue_and_white]

Chris if thats the case you obviously don't rem the club wallowing around in the lower leagues with not enough brass to pay poor and average players? Believe me and this may take some stomaching but in the natural order of things with football clubs status dictated largely by financial resource that is where we really belong. And this is the reason that the likes of Jim, Den and myself have been so aghast and distraught at what has been going on since Venkeys took over. We know how precarious Prem status is for a club like ours and we know how difficult life will be should we be relegated. To risk the clubs future existence as they have done is just complete utter bloody madness bordering on criminal. Forget most of the stupid arguments that you read on here cos most of them are being made by people like you who through age simply do not know what relegation will entail.

Totally agree with this as a general point. Blackburn is only the 82nd largest town/city in England. As a standard rule the size of the place where a club is based dictates the size of its fanbase and the size of fanbase dictates how much is made in gate receipts and merchandise/retail sales. These 2 revenue streams are crucial in deciding which league a club is likely to end up in and therefore how much TV money it will end up getting. Not all of the 81 bigger towns/cities in England have football clubs but most do and by rights all these clubs should be above Rovers. Taking wealthy owners out of the equation (as Hughes and Allardyce had get by without) and bottom half of the Championship is about where we really ought to be.

Considering where we should be, Rovers were a phenomenal success story under Allardyce and Williams. Not the unattractive, boring, unimpressive outfit many of even our own fans made us out to be. As thenodrog points out, Venkys have thoughtlessly meddled with a delicate balancing act kept going by people who were very skilled in their jobs, and this is the inevitable result. Throwing money at the problem they've created could well fix it but not if we get relegated into a league notoriously hard to get out of and they get bored/sick of hemorrhaging money and sell up to god knows who before we manage it.

[Blue n White Rover]

What on earth makes you think that?

The January transfer window where we spent £5million on 2 transfers. We brought in Jermaine Jones and RSC. Would that have happened under the Walker Trust? I very much doubt it.

How have away games been since?

A lot better thank you very much. 2 games where we've played poorly and that's Wigan and Everton. Fulham game was a game where we showed effort and determination to get back into the game, for it all to be thrown away with a very dubious penalty decision. West Brom when we played very well and came away with 3 points. Arsenal where we showed resilience and great effort to get a point after going down to 10 men. Didn't go to the West Ham game due to work, but having watched the full game again, we did look a lot better than we did under Allardyce.

[tony gale's mic]

Our away record under Kean is considerably worse than under Sam you total nugget.

[Blue n White Rover]

The problem is that you know nothing about football, or if I'm being kind, you seem incapable of incorporating what's happened in, say, the last 10 seasons of Premier League football into your half baked opinions.

No one, but no one, has managed to sustain a team on a budget in the top half of the league for multiple seasons in the last ten years and managed to play attractive football at the same time.

We played some great stuff under Sparky in the season when we had Bellamy and Tugay. But the quality of football faded with Tugay's legs. There were numerous people complaining on here about the style of football in Sparky's last season when we finished 7th. I wasn't one of them. We had the worst disciplinary record in the league and were WIDELY criticised for our playing style. Probably just as much if not more than under Sam, if for different reasons.

Bolton under Sam were another team who had multiple top 10 finishes. Their playing style got better as Sam was able to add the likes of Okocha and Djorkaeff into the team as he went on. If you looked at his transfer targets this season, he was looking to do the same again.

Stoke under Pulis have had plenty to spend, far more than Sam but still get criticised for their playing style. It has improved but then so it should when you can spend as much on players as Pulis can.

Owen Coyle may well end up being the exception. But that's one man in ten years - and he still needs to repeat the success next season to really fulfil this. I'd back him to do it but I think he's an excellent manager.

Moyes has had a huge amount to spend compared to anyone at Rovers.

To play vaguely "attractive" football you need players with pace and/or creativity. Those players cost the absolute most of any player, bar out and out goalscorers possibly. Sam had a negative net transfer budget to spend, if you hadn't noticed. Where we finished in the league last season (10th) was one place off being as high as we could possibly expect to finish, given Villa, Everton, Spurs, City etc all were in a different spending league.

We had an excellent record at Ewood. Most fans like watching nice football, but fans who know a bit about the game know it's a very tough ask to achieve consistently good results and play nice football unless you have some money to spend. Clearly, you aren't aware of this simple, basic truth.

The decision won't be justified if we retain our PL status. We sacked a man who had us as close pointswise to relegation as he did to the Champions' League last season, and who wouldve arguably have had us finish top 10 again this season, and who had a track record of doing very well with a club like ours in the past. Even if we stay up, we'll have a manager who seems in no way capable of doing that, and who, unless he shows a sharp improvement next season, WILL get us relegated or very close next season.

So basically, all those clubs that don't spend money and are run on shoe-string budgets have to play long ball football?

That was the case with Allardyce, and I was sick and tired of it. I was excited at the fact that we got a free kick on the half way line for pete's sake! He did get us good results, but performances were dire and boring. They don't have to be like that. There are clubs that are on tighter budgets than ourselves yet don't resort to long balls, why on earth did we have to? We saw in the Carling Cup games that the team was more than capable of playing attractive football, and yet he still ignored that and continued playing his usual tactics.

If that's what you are happy with, and want to watch then fair enough, but I'd rather not.

Our away record under Kean is considerably worse than under Sam you total nugget.

I forgot how great we were last season under Sam away from home.

[tony gale's mic]

So basically, all those clubs that don't spend money and are run on shoe-string budgets have to play long ball football?

That was the case with Allardyce, and I was sick and tired of it. I was excited at the fact that we got a free kick on the half way line for pete's sake! He did get us good results, but performances were dire and boring. They don't have to be like that. There are clubs that are on tighter budgets than ourselves yet don't resort to long balls, why on earth did we have to? We saw in the Carling Cup games that the team was more than capable of playing attractive football, and yet he still ignored that and continued playing his usual tactics.

If that's what you are happy with, and want to watch then fair enough, but I'd rather not.

The clubs that are on tighter budgets than us really aren't that many. Of those currently in the league: Wigan and Blackpool are probably on smaller budgets, WBA and Wolves are on a similar-ish budget to us. Fulham have a bit more money than us, but not much more granted. Wigan are perennial relegation strugglers. WBA did well after Hodgson joined this season but are the definition of a yoyo club. Blackpool will most likely go down this season. Fulham have done well this time round but previously have been in plenty of relegation battles.

Would I exchange consistently finishing 10th or possibly higher with Sam and his brand of football over any of those clubs?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Chris if thats the case you obviously don't rem the club wallowing around in the lower leagues with not enough brass to pay poor and average players? Believe me and this may take some stomaching but in the natural order of things with football clubs status dictated largely by financial resource that is where we really belong. And this is the reason that the likes of Jim, Den and myself have been so aghast and distraught at what has been going on since Venkeys took over. We know how precarious Prem status is for a club like ours and we know how difficult life will be should we be relegated. To risk the clubs future existence as they have done is just complete utter bloody madness bordering on criminal. Forget most of the stupid arguments that you read on here cos most of them are being made by people like you who through age simply do not know what relegation will entail.

Been there, can't argue, you're right.

[tony gale's mic]

I forgot how great we were last season under Sam away from home.

Yeah, because I said we were so good under Sam away from home, didn't I?

Last season, under Sam, if the table was solely based on away form, we would've finished 13th. Our away record that season was roughly similar to St. Coyle's away record this season at Bolton. Apart from Stoke, our away record was at least within 3 points of every club outside the big 4, Villa, City, Spurs and Everton. Not great, but pretty average.

Under Kean, if the league table was solely based on away records, we'd be 18th in the league.

Since the start of last season, under Sam we got 21 pts from 28 games away from home at an average of 0.75 points per game.

Under Kean we've got 5 pts from 9 games at 0.56 points per game.

Put even more simply, if Kean had just had Sam's pretty average away form, forgetting all the points we've lost by not having Sam's home form, we'd be on 41 points by now and be safe from the drop.

And you're still trying to tell me the form away from home is better under Kean?

[BuckyRover]

Yeah, because I said we were so good under Sam away from home, didn't I?

Last season, under Sam, if the table was solely based on away form, we would've finished 13th. Our away record that season was roughly similar to St. Coyle's away record this season at Bolton. Apart from Stoke, our away record was at least within 3 points of every club outside the big 4, Villa, City, Spurs and Everton. Not great, but pretty average.

Under Kean, if the league table was solely based on away records, we'd be 18th in the league.

Since the start of last season, under Sam we got 21 pts from 28 games away from home at an average of 0.75 points per game.

Under Kean we've got 5 pts from 9 games at 0.56 points per game.

Put even more simply, if Kean had just had Sam's pretty average away form, forgetting all the points we've lost by not having Sam's home form, we'd be on 41 points by now and be safe from the drop.

And you're still trying to tell me the form away from home is better under Kean?

I haven't checked. But surely the best comparison would be our away form when Sam's first took over. Before he had any time to mould the team to play his way.

[tony gale's mic]

I haven't checked. But surely the best comparison would be our away form when Sam's first took over. Before he had any time to mould the team to play his way.

a) The argument he was making was that the away games have been better under Kean than they have been under Sam, not that the away games will be better under Kean.

B ) Sam inherited a team which had been in the relegation zone and who'd been playing that way. Kean inherited one which was on course for another top 10 finish and who, Man Utd and a couple of other games aside, had put in some good away performances this season.

But anyway, 8 points from 10 games is your answer, which was actually 9th in the league from that point onwards.

[RevidgeBlue]

We know how precarious Prem status is for a club like ours and we know how difficult life will be should we be relegated. To risk the clubs future existence as they have done is just complete utter bloody madness bordering on criminal.

Too true tnr!.

Oops sorry, thought you were talking about the lack of interest and years of neglect from the previous owners for a moment there............

[Parsonblue]

Too true tnr!.

Oops sorry, thought you were talking about the lack of interest and years of neglect from the previous owners for a moment there............

Longest run in the top flight since 1936 under the Trust Rev. Not bad for owners who showed a lack of interest and neglect.

[47er]

So what? You are obviously just attempting to chuck more mud. If someone had bid more when his contract ended then he could have gone, it's the way of the world, it's the way contracts should work and also a sign that he is highly rated by others. Can you see anybody chucking £4/5m pa toward your hero Steve Kean? Cos I ###### well can't.

Good old Gav! Wanted Sam to go more than anything on earth and heaped *hit on him from the start. Then complains when Sam wants to go!

Sam didn't go because Rovers wouldn't let him but the likes of Gav moaned all the way through to the end anyway!

"4-4-2"!!

"only 3-0 up! Boo!!!"

Now he and his ilk get stuck into others because there's too much "pessimism" on here. Absolutely hilarious (if we weren't in such a dog-fight).

[Roost]

So you didn't enjoy the feast on display at Villa then?

[imy9]

Good old Gav! Wanted Sam to go more than anything on earth and heaped *hit on him from the start. Then complains when Sam wants to go!

Sam didn't go because Rovers wouldn't let him but the likes of Gav moaned all the way through to the end anyway!

"4-4-2"!!

"only 3-0 up! Boo!!!"

Now he and his ilk get stuck into others because there's too much "pessimism" on here. Absolutely hilarious (if we weren't in such a dog-fight).

Need to get out more

[Gav]

Good old Gav! Wanted Sam to go more than anything on earth and heaped *hit on him from the start. Then complains when Sam wants to go!

Sam didn't go because Rovers wouldn't let him but the likes of Gav moaned all the way through to the end anyway!

"4-4-2"!!

"only 3-0 up! Boo!!!"

Now he and his ilk get stuck into others because there's too much "pessimism" on here. Absolutely hilarious (if we weren't in such a dog-fight).

Are you going today 47er?

Need to get out more

No Imy thats the problem, 9.15am and he's p****d already

[thenodrog]

I forgot how great we were last season under Sam away from home.

We came 10th last season on 50 points. 8th on home form and 13th if the table was just based on away results. I'd take that this season wouldn't you?

[thenodrog]

Too true tnr!.

Oops sorry, thought you were talking about the lack of interest and years of neglect from the previous owners for a moment there............

I've already given my opinion here Simon........

Why do you still use the term 'investment' in this context? In football it's not investment cos investment requires a return. Investing in football has become just an exercise in chucking good money after bad. I suggest the term 'Cash injection' is much more accurate than investment and should be adopted forthwith.

If I was the Walker Trust chucking in 3m per season I might well have continued with the cash injections ... but only after doubling the cost of admission and ST prices so that the supporters could make a valid contribution too instead of increasingly demanding subsidised admissions. They ended up subsidising the club and subsidising the supporters too and reallistically that could never continue. If somethings worth having it's worth paying for.

Basically we are condemning others for something that we are unwilling to do ourselves. Don't you agree?

[thenodrog]

The January transfer window where we spent £5million on 2 transfers. We brought in Jermaine Jones and RSC. Would that have happened under the Walker Trust? I very much doubt it.

Both those are loans, history shows that the Walker Trust would have done similar if the manager had requested it. As for the 5m on two players one of whom has played a couple of hours on the pitch whilst the other must be the Invisible Man. I'm pretty sure that Allardyce wiould have been up before the beak for such foolishness.

[Amo]

From a personal point of view, I was fed up of his style of football. Some games at Ewood were just truly shocking to watch and I was sick and tired of it. No creativity, no plan B and plain boring. Only reason I kept watching was because I love the club. Away from Ewood, I spent thousands on going to watch them up and down the country and the lack of interest he showed was also irritating. When he put out a reserve side that rolled over against Liverpool. I paid £38 to watch that game exc. travel.

I wouldn't bother.

It all comes down to the same, tired strawman argument which has plagued this forum for years now.

Rovers can either play kick and rush OR (fail) at playing sexy football.

There is no alternative. No in-between. No direct, physical game with variety in the final third.

Just plain route one.

[tony gale's mic]

I wouldn't bother.

It all comes down to the same, tired strawman argument which has plagued this forum for years now.

Rovers can either play kick and rush OR (fail) at playing sexy football.

There is no alternative. No in-between. No direct, physical game with variety in the final third.

Just plain route one.

No one, but no one has claimed that except for you repeatedly putting that argument into other peoples mouth.

Firstly under Sam we did sometimes play something in between, however like most successful sides we had one particular style which we used most frequently.

Secondly, we can play something in between. But the more we went towards that side chances are our results would suffer. Under Sam we played to our strengths. We didn't have much creativity in the side, we didn't have too many pacy players, but we did have players who were strong in the tackle, good in the air and who could put themselves about.

Last season under Sam we finished 10th. One might argue we couldve finished ahead of Birmingham maybe who finished 9th (though we were level on points).

Apart from that, who else do you think we couldve feasibly finished ahead of last season?

Sam was about results first and foremost, and that's something that is totally justified given the potential perils to our club in particular if we were to slip down the table. He quite rightly took the view last season that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

However before he was booted out, one only needs to look at his transfer targets this season to see after making us a solid outfit last season he was looking to introduce some guile into the side like he did at Bolton.

[Stavros_BRFC]

0-1 Bolton !